[00:00:00] SAI SION H: You know, I'm like low-key Harriet the Spy in this whole situation. And that's what I really am, until a therapist was like, "No, no, you're not. What you're doing is you’re lying.” (Laughter)

ANNE BOGEL: Hey readers, I'm Anne Bogel and this is What Should I Read Next?. Welcome to the show that's dedicated to answering the question that plagues every reader, what should I read next? We don't get bossy on this show. What we will do here is give you the information you need to choose your next read. Every week we'll talk all things books and reading and do a little literary matchmaking with one guest.

Before we get started, I want to remind you that there are more good books coming your way. On Thursday, September 14th, we are hosting our fifth annual Fall Book Preview, where I'll share 42 noteworthy titles publishing between August 29th and year's end.

We'll cover books I've read and adored, books I personally cannot wait to read, and books that the industry is buzzing hard about this season. A good time will be had by all at our Fall Book Preview live events, which is very much in the style of our Summer Reading Guide unboxing. And readers who participate get our shorts, that's 12 pages, Fall Book Preview digital booklet that lists out all the titles arranged by category, has features on seven spotlight titles I especially want to draw your attention to, plus a couple of fun extras we're throwing in.

Fall Book Preview access is an included perk for our What Should I Read Next? Patrons, also for our Modern Mrs. Darcy Book lovers. Or by popular demand, we are bringing back a la carte access, just like we did for this year's Summer Reading Guide. You told us you wanted it. We see that you really meant it. We heard you loud and clear when you said, Bring it back again. And we're doing that for Fall Book Preview. Whether you want to become a Patron or grab an ala carte ticket, do that today at modernmrsdarcy.com/fbp, that's for Fall Book Preview. modernmrsdarcy.com/fbp. We'll see you there.

[00:02:06] Readers, today's guest grew up with a deep love for science fiction and fantasy. And as an adult reader, he still loves stories with a bit of magic to them. Sai Sion H recently moved from New Orleans to Austin, Texas. While his career has taken him in many directions, from acting to podcasting, his work always centers on making people, places, and things better versions of themselves.

For Sai, one way he understands his own journey is through the books he loves most. In fact, he picked his favorites today based on the life lessons they've delivered over the years. Sai's on the hunt for even more favorite reads, and he'd be thrilled to find a title that will match this next chapter of his life journey. He'd specifically love to add more non-Western authors to his library holds list. I can't wait to chat with Sai today and suggest titles that will hopefully spark some new magic in his reading life. Let's get to it.

Sai, welcome to the show.

[00:03:00] SAI: Yay. So nice to be here.

ANNE: I'm so excited you're here.

SAI: Yes, me too. Me too.

ANNE: Oh, that is a great "let's talk about books" voice. I love it.

SAI: Uh huh. I love books, so yay, and talking about them. Fun fact. Used to run a cookbook book club back in the hometown.

ANNE: Really?

SAI: Mm-hmm. Where you all get the same cookbook, and then you make a dish from it, and then you all meet up, and we all talk about what it was like to cook from that book and about the dishes you made in your home. It was the best program ever.

ANNE: Oh, I am so jealous. I didn't know this was a concept until 2018 when I went to Browsers Bookshop in Olympia, Washington, owned by Andrea Griffith—hi, Andrea—who's been on the show this year. So listeners go back and listen. But I was so sad that I was never in town to go to cookbook club to cook up my dish for my chosen cookbook and go. I've still only heard about them. So memorable cookbook that you went to cookbook club for. Go.

SAI: After While, Crocodile Cookbook Club pick number six and it was crockpots. Like, all the dishes you can make in a crockpot.

[00:04:08] ANNE: That also feels educational because I don't want to think about dinner at 4 o'clock. I'd rather think about it at 8 o’clock in the morning because at 4 o'clock, I mean, we're having a conversation about podcasting.

SAI: Yep. Which is why I loved it. I was like, "Oh yeah, I need to make sure my schedule is organized by making sure food is taken care of because that's a big source of anxiety for me."

ANNE: Honestly, the time of day where you're supposed to be making dinner, I would rather be reading.

SAI: Yes. And then I don't have extra spare time to want to make this. I'm not happiest in the kitchen, I guess I'll say.

ANNE: Well, you know what? Unless I'm listening to a good audiobook and then it's fine.

SAI: Yes, I do that. But then I ruin everything I cook. I just ruin it. I can’t stop, because I get so focused. If it's a really good audiobook, I'm like, "Oh no, I'm not listening. I can't listen right now. I got to focus on this food that I'm burning." Oh, it happens every time, Anne. It's bad.

ANNE: Wait, does this mean we should be talking about books and not cooking tips?

SAI: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yes, yes.

ANNE: All right. All right. Redirect. Sai, I'm so glad you're here today. And I'm really excited about the themes you brought to us via our submissions page. But before we get into the details, give our readers a glimpse of who you are. Tell us a little about yourself.

[00:05:20] SAI: Yes, I can. There's a fun thing we do at work in how we introduce ourselves. I'll do that here. "Hi, I'm Sai, and a quirk about me is I like to eat vegetables when I'm very stressed out, specifically bitter ones like arugula or I'll get a pack of mini cucumbers and I'll just eat all of it raw like I'm a rabbit. And that's what I do when I'm stressed.

So, for me, the past 13 years of my life, of my working life has been spent making people, places, and things better versions of themselves, whether it's through libraries, cruise ships, clinics, schools and businesses, nonprofits, usually with the focus on kids and education and entertainment. And I do so many other things. I wear so many other hats. You can basically call me a specialized generalist.

One of the things I did that was very exciting and very new in my life was podcasting and winning an award for it. Like two and really good ones too. So I'm very excited about that. And that's me.

ANNE: Readers, we will put links in show notes for that so you can go check those out. And I know you recently made a move to a place where we have a lot of listeners. Tell us about that.

[00:06:29] SAI: Yes, I recently just moved to Austin, Texas, from New Orleans, Louisiana. I'm from Louisiana in general, but I've spent the past five years living in New Orleans and made the transition here because of work. I work at a wonderful place called Game Worlds, which teaches kids how to make video games in a week.

ANNE: And listeners, if your ears just perked up at the mention of New Orleans, we talked to Caitlin Moran about that city in Episode 386. Sai, tell me about your reading life.

SAI: Oh, yes. Yes. It's been all over the place as much as I have been, and especially over these past few years. I grew up and science fiction and fantasy were my jam, but also mystery books, and I wanted to do each and every job in those books, which is why I just kept reading more and more of them. I'm like, "I'm going to be a wizard," but also who solves mysteries? But will make it in time for the senior prom, right? So there's that.

I now read just a mix of everything. I guess the easiest way to put it is if I can apply anything that I'm reading to my actual current life, then I do. And it can be from any genre, any either fiction and nonfiction, either side of the fence, either literary or just genre fiction in general, because I'm an equal opportunity reader, I find.

ANNE: At what point did you realize that you're inclined to take insights from books and actually strive to or just happen to? I don't even know. But I want to hear about the process of you living out the insights you're getting from your books and your actual life.

[00:08:13] SAI: Hmm, good one. That would start with when I worked at a library—that was my very first ever job. I did it subconsciously and then consciously. There were all these people I kept meeting from all these walks of life, mostly the homeless and houseless because there's a difference to me between the two. And I was like, I know that reading helps with empathy, so I should be reading more about real life to understand how to empathize with those around me.

And that was just my, honest to God, thought process in starting to apply what I was reading to my real life. And realized that a lot of my science fiction and fantasy didn't do that or wanted to shy away from that. Or if it did, it was always buried under all of these like space operatic terms or just lore in general. So I was like, Okay, I need to get away from that.

So that's when I started doing more real-life books centered around just weird people on weird adventures. And I think that started with Alice, I think by Susan Juby, because there was a tiny little girl patron who reminded me of that book. And I had never really read it until I met her. And to understand her better, I read that whole book. And yeah, so that's where it started. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Done.

ANNE: Oh, I have a confession.

SAI: Hmm.

ANNE: I don't know that book.

[00:09:44] SAI: Oh, it's so cute. It's about this little girl who gets home-schooled, like day one in kindergarten, because she comes to school dressed up as a hobbit and then immediately gets bullied by all the kids. The parents pull her out of school and just decide to homeschool her until she's in high school and she's like, "I want people as friends, not just you." So it's just all about the awkwardness of like your teen years and also just how nobody really knows the rules and we're always making them up. But you have to learn the game anyway. So it's just so cute, like her observations on things.

ANNE: Oh, that sounds really cute. Tell me more about reading science fiction and fantasy. I think I remember that you said that's where your roots are as a reader.

SAI: Yes, those are my serious roots. My favorite books growing up were by Terry Pratchett, may he rest in peace for forever. His series of books called the Discworld novels, that was my jam. Was reading those. I loved Lemony Snicket. I loved Diana Wynne Jones, Diane Duane. Respectively, Diana Wynne Jones did Howl's Moving Castle. Diane Duane does the Young Wizard series. I was never a fan of Middle-earth. It was just like, Why are you explaining? Like, I don't get all the lore. It's so much talking about a world and no one actually does anything in it.

[00:11:03] ANNE: Oh, my gosh. Have you seen the memes that are like Tolkien talking about a tree, 400 pages.

SAI: Yes.

ANNE: Tolkien describing how hobbits invented golf, three sentences.

SAI: Yes. I'm like, he wanted to write a manual, not a book. Like this is not a novel. Like, stop.

ANNE: I remember reading those in the line for the bank teller when I had a first summer job when I was, I don't know, a teenager because I wanted to know what happened next. But yes, I'm still cracking up on your description of Tolkien and Middle-earth.

SAI: It's just. Like he cares about nature more than his characters.

ANNE: Okay, so we can see what you care about. That's important.

SAI: Yeah, both fit. I care deeply about the emotional investment of the characters in a space, because I'll read pages about your internal struggles, but start describing that blade of grass one more time and I will hurt you. It's okay. It's just grass, honey. It's grass. Go on. Like, we've been in this town for, I don't know how long, saying goodbye to everything like it's Goodnight Moon. I'm tired of this. So, yeah, that's what I don't like. I don't like Tolkien, sorry. That's controversial. I know.

[00:12:17] ANNE: It's okay. You can own that. Okay, I want to hear you say something in your own voice because I want to work with it. But you wrote "a little touch of magic never hurt any story". Could you just tell me about that while we're talking about science fiction and fantasy?

SAI: Yes. Oh, my gosh. You know, I try and diversify what I read all the time, every day, my whole life. And even though I'm all the way grown now and have seen many a meme that floats around the idea of I put childish things away, I still can never really put away a book that has magic in it to some degree, because I don't know, a little touch of magic never hurt any story at all. I think I saw that for the first time in urban fantasy, like Sarah Addison Allen. And she did like Sugar Queen, Chase the Moon.

ANNE: All those Southern stories.

SAI: Yeah. And I love a good Southern Gothic, which is where magic usually, you know, like A Rose for Emily, which was deeply gothic. I gel with that. So, yeah, that's why I'm like, you know, you could... just a little pinches like seasoning, you know? Don't be afraid of seasoning in your story. It doesn't always have to have a hard connection to the piece.

[00:13:32] ANNE: Okay. Listening to you describe the little touch of magic and the Southern Gothic appeal, what was New Orleans like for your reading life? Because those things all go together real well.

SAI: They do. For New Orleans, my reading life was just so chaotic and depressing because it mirrored the major life changes I was making at that time. So, for me, my reading life in New Orleans is just a scattered mess, and I always clung to survival-ish epics that were very prestige fantasy.

ANNE: Sai, would you pause and explain what that means to our listeners who aren't as well-versed in sci-fi and fantasy descriptors?

SAI: Yes. So prestige is kind of like the other way to say literary. There's a difference between literary and genre, right? And on TV, there's a difference between genre and prestige television. So I just interchange the mostly. So in this case, what I describe as prestige fantasy epics are things that would eventually be picked up by HBO. If HBO would pick it up, it's probably a prestige flick. So think Game of Thrones, think The Last of US, which was a video game, but it's like that's a whole thing was this prestige video game, and Station Eleven, which also was a book, and then it became an HBO adaptation.

[00:14:59] But outside of that, there were all these other series that I was reading that I guess it must have three awards to be prestige. I don't know. But that seems to be the common vein that I've been finding. So The Broken Earth Series by N.K. Jemisin, Story of Your Life and other Short Stories by Ted Chiang, and random ones like Await Your Reply by Dan Chaon.

ANNE: That's so interesting. And thank you for that description. It reminds me of something you said in your submission that I thought was so intriguing. The way you put it, Sai, is you said, you've talked about it before, but the difference between literary fiction versus genre fiction has always weighed heavily on my mind ever since you explained it so brilliantly on your show as what we write for our peers versus for other people."

And friends, we could have a whole conversation about this. And the line between literary fiction and genre fiction... I mean, I talked about the line. There is no line. But that is one way to identify how you might describe something. But Sai, you said that there's a direct correlation with that in podcasting, and I have been so curious ever since you planted that idea in my mind. Please say more.

[00:16:08] SAI: Yes. So what I was referring to in podcasting is directly fiction versus nonfiction. So the award that I won for podcasting was for an audio drama that I wrote. So fiction. And it was a science fiction fantasy piece. Surprise. And because of that, I saw firsthand all the apprehension around a property like that, because it was done as an experiment for a company called Pineapple Street Studios and their incubator mystery box show called The 11th, where every month they were just doing something completely different. And I pitched to them an audio drama and they said yes to it. And it's like a room full of journalists, you know?

And the only reason I think they did believe in me was because I did a very good job with that pitch. And I was like, "Well, you know, the very first audio drama was actually by Orson Welles and War of the Worlds, which was science fiction, if you want to think about it like that. And are you really doing something new or are we trying to make this great again? Wouldn't you like to make this great again?" It was like something along those lines.

So I convinced them. But throughout the months of the production and since the release of the show, and I talk about it with other podcasters, it is a major turn-off in conversations to bring up anything that is fiction. It is not real work to a lot of them. It is not important. It is not prestige. It's like, "Oh, you did this for the masses." Like, you know, oh, audio dramas, everybody hates an audio drama, you know, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

It's like, "Oh, we did something important. Like Upton Sinclair is just smiling at us from heaven, you know, because if it's not like based off of facts. And not even a hard-hitting serial kind of story. Just, oh, we just want to hear real life, but in a creative way, you know, where we're only hearing the sounds of you making tea, but you don't tell us we're making tea. They like that kind of stuff.

[00:18:08] Like we should just be able to listen to this audio and immerse ourselves in this world. But no, it has to be a real world. Because when it's fiction, oh, no, no, no, no. And that was a major struggle when I was writing the piece, because like with these journalists, they all have those sensitivities to it. And it was clear who actually thought that this would be a success and worth investment like from the get-go.

And those are people who are unafraid of audiobooks and audio dramas versus the ones who I could say I'll never touched any of that material in their own personal lives and beyond, whether it was in movies, books. There was a correlation. It was like, Oh, I'm so sad for you. Your imagination isn't nearly as rich as mine because of that. And not in a shaming way. But just like, "Oh, you like talking about grass. And I like talking about what we do when we see it from the perspective of a dragon." You know, so there.

ANNE: This is making me think of coffee I had with a friend just on Saturday where she was saying, "I mean, we've talked about this before, Anne, I have a hard time convincing myself that fiction is, imagine my air quotes, worth the time because what do I really get out of it."

SAI: Yes.

[00:19:21] ANNE: And also something we're going to hear about today is how these books you love, including a couple of novels have really made a practical difference in how you live your life and that you think about them all the time.

SAI: Yes. Oh, my God, yes.

ANNE: Well, Sai, on that note, are you ready to talk about your books?

SAI: Yes, I am so ready.

ANNE: You know how this works. You're going to tell me about three books you love, one book you don't, and what you've been reading lately and we will talk about what you may enjoy reading next. And you have some specific things you're looking for in your reading life, I'm real excited to get into that. Sai, how did you choose these books for today?

SAI: Oh, I chose these books because they have, honest to God, been my mantras for my adult life for the past five years. I first heard of them through, two of them at least, through What Should I Read Next? and then I took a chance on them. And then I believed in them with all of my heart.

ANNE: That sounds amazing. What is the first book you love?

[00:20:20] SAI: The first book I love is Station Eleven by Emily St. John Mandel, purely because of this line which did come from Star Trek, and she claims this. But it was how it was used in the book. It was "survival is insufficient." And that's written on a traveling theater troupe's truck. Survival is insufficient.

The reason that meant so much to me was because when you do become a survivalist, it's like a very mean minimalism in your mind where I don't need this, I don't need happiness, I don't need joy, I don't need knickknacks, I don't need this time off, I need to work, I need to make rent, I need to buy food. You get into that mentality and the only thing that was ever really capable of snapping me out of it was that mantra of like, Oh, but this is insufficient. You're not really living, you're surviving. And I'm tired of surviving. I'd like to live. So that's number one.

ANNE: So that book about a traveling Shakespeare troupe after 99% of the population got wiped out in a pandemic and they're skirting their way around Michigan, it gave you a mantra that you keep coming back to.

SAI: Mm hmm.

[00:21:25] ANNE: Did you get a tattoo? Because Emily St. John Mandel says that so many people on book tours show her their Station Eleven tattoos, including this line from Star Trek. I was kind of being flippant. But what I really want to know is tell me like... I'd love to hear a little bit more specifically how this book keeps mattering in your life.

SAI: Yes, it matters so much, one, because I'm an actor. So seeing how actors survive in a dystopian fantasy that is so scarily close to reality fascinates me because I never imagined my life in this setting. Usually, the survivalists that make it in, you know, the zombie apocalypse staff are all like mailmen and pizza delivery drivers.

But, you know, where does art go when society collapses? How do you bring that back? Like, we should preserve this. There's such a reason to invest in the arts all the time. It resonated for me in a completely different way. I was like, "Oh my God, if we didn't have at least theater happening, we wouldn't have culture. So yeah, that's why I immensely resonated with that and the place of acting and artists and that being like a vital part of society. I have a book that I hate that I just thought about that talked about the exact opposite of that. So that's related though. I have answered that question and I'm still on topic.

[00:22:50] ANNE: Not to brag, but from one rabbit trailer to another. I love it. Sai, tell me about the second book you love.

SAI: The second book I love is high fantasy and also an example of prestige, I guess, fantasy. High fantasy meaning like it's definitely got witches and gods and stuff in it, so watch out.

ANNE: No mistaking this for something that might happen to you in your life.

SAI: No not anything even close. In fact, it's based in ancient Greece and it is called Circe by Madeline Miller. What I took away from that book was self-improvement via isolation and exile, developing yourself in solitude, almost like the perks of being a hermit is how I want to phrase that. At the time I felt exiled in my life, my move to New Orleans was not pleasant. And very much that time in my life was pretty rocky and my future very uncertain.

So it just felt like I was lost at sea and abandoned for a little bit for other reasons. Not just "I'm just a victim. I'm abandoned." No. In general, it's just very rough. And it got to the point where I loved that book so much. I listen to it, I read it, and then I even nicknamed my Wi-Fi in my old place, Ayaya, which is the island in the book that Circe lands on. And that's just how much that book meant to me that I started calling my safe haven home Ayaya.

[00:24:26] ANNE: I love that. Would you describe this as a right book at the right time for you?

SAI: Oh, yes. This and Station Eleven. Because Circe is a survivalist in and she's just using what she's given to make an awful situation something incredible. And suddenly she becomes a source of envy and an icon for being just a hermit, essentially, and working on her own devices. I love a story where the little guy gets power through self-improvement, breaks the chain of needing something bigger in their life, like either whether it is religion or capitalism, and becomes this terror to those entities, but a hero to other underdogs for paving a new future. I love a good pioneer story in that sense. You know, there's Cerci and there's Ruby Bridges and I love them both equally for these reasons, you know.

ANNE: Breaking the chain pace in near future. I like the themes. Sai, what is the third book you love?

[00:25:34] SAI: The third book I love, definitely also from What Should I Read Next?. It's called Garlic and Sapphires by Ruth Reichl. What I took away from that book was that I felt very validated in how I was seeing my life, because by default, I am just an actor, I am a performer. That is ingrained into my DNA. And I never thought to use it in the way that Ruth does, which is coming up with disguises so that she can do her job as a food critic and piece in New York, which is what that whole book is about. And I was like, Oh-

ANNE: I'm laughing because, yes, that's exactly what that book is about. And I enjoyed reading about it so much.

SAI: It was so good. I haven't found anything close to that. I really haven't. I was like, What a fantastic way to view life. And I was kind of doing something similar because at the time I had so many jobs. There were so many different versions of me doing those jobs. Like, if you look at my resume, Anne, I look like an identity thief, to be honest, you know? I could do everything from being a health coach to a chaplain and all of it using the same skill sets that I've got there.

[00:26:44] ANNE: Right. You said something really interesting earlier about how you realized this starting point that you were essentially performing your career. Tell me more about that. In the context of Ruth Reichl. That's fascinating, Sai.

SAI: Yes. You know, if I put on a specific lanyard that has a bunch of nonverbal cue tags on it, I am now Sai the behavior technician working with like speech therapist and O.T. with like, you know, this sped population in schools. And I use my therapy voice and I go into situations very calmly. I always wear pants with a striped shirt. That is my costume. You know, I'm very quirky and energetic, but I'm here and I mean business and I'm very smart.

But then I put on shorts and a tank top, and I'm in front of these other group of kids, and I'm like, "I'm Sai the fitness person today, and we're just going to do raptors, which is just jumping up in the air with raptor on. Like if I put on yellow and blue, I turn into a Disney entertainment host all over again because I worked for the cruise line.

If I just do jeans with a shirt about books on it, I turn into Sai the librarian/worker, and not librarian proper. I make it my way to get my library degree. And can't you tell? Because I know the difference in the terminology. Let me push on my glasses so you know I'm thinking real hard.

[00:28:08] ANNE: Well, something I loved about this book that I didn't expect in a food memoir is at first Ruth Reichl is just trying to disappear so that nobody knows she's the food critic because she finds that she can't actually accurately review a restaurant if they know she's the food critic, because, of course, they're going to make her experience amazing if they know it's her. So her mission is to make sure they don't.

But she really gets into it and she almost takes on the personalities of these various personas she constructs. And that ability to disappear into somebody else is really a superpower for her in this book. But perhaps you have a different experience. Perhaps you're like, Yeah, you and me both, Ruth Reichl.

SAI: No. Yeah, you and me both, Ruth. She got it right. Because I... and I don't know. It wasn't from a book, it's from a TV show, I can't remember which. But a girl character on the show was putting on makeup and it was very Halloween situation. And they were like, "Why are you putting on makeup?" And she was like, "It's not makeup, it's wall paint." And I was like, Yes.

And that's how I feel about the personas that we always have to put on for society. But whenever you tap into the fact that, Oh, no, this is a performance, and I'm going to lean into that, it's the thing that carries me some days.

[00:29:21] Well, actually, not to be abstract about it, I worked for the Bezos plantation for a hot minute. We know what I mean. And when I did, it was almost on a level of disassociation of I am not just this person, but I have to put on the uniform of this person. And what's their back story? Who are they really? Oh, actually, I'm Sai the undercover guy and I'm secretly taking notes on what it's like to work here to report you guys to the news outlets, to anything else. You know, I'm like, low-key Harriet the Spy in this whole situation. And that's what I really am. Until a therapist was like, "Nope, no, you're not. What you're doing is risking life. You're lying."

So yeah. So just like Ruth, I kind of lost myself in the character because I was like, the reality of the situation is pretty hard for prison-conscious me to deal with. And yeah, I [inaudible 00:30:21] that life lesson from that book. Woo.

[00:30:25] ANNE: Is there a specific mantra that you can articulate in words that you took from Garlic and Sapphires?

SAI: Oh-

ANNE: Because sometimes I feel like what we take away from books isn't the specific words like "survival is insufficient". Sometimes it's more a way of seeing or just a complete understanding of something we didn't know about before, which is meaningful but harder to talk about.

SAI: Yes. Then my biggest takeaway would have been when her friend calls her out for being in love with the performance and forgetting the point of the performance. You've been performing as all these people but you forgot that you were doing it for the little guy. And you had like a good reason to... You know, because, yes, she's trying to hide herself so she doesn't get the best treatment. But she's doing that because she wants everyday people to understand what eating like the elite feels like because they are denied that by society. And that was the true goal of that and she lost it in the performance.

So, for me, in that story I just talked about, you know, working for Amazon, it was like, Oh yeah, I actually wanted to do this to protect the people I was working with from more bodily harm and on an everyday basis. Because, you know, there were just constant stories coming out about what it was like working at these warehouses. Like every single day, every single week, there was like a, you know, Amazon journalism happening. I'm going to call that brown journalism just because of the box, you know? But yeah, I felt like I fit into the fantasy too much and lost the point of my own life story.

ANNE: That's so interesting.

[00:32:02] SAI: Yeah, It took a college recruiter to snap me out of that.

ANNE: That's interesting.

SAI: Yeah, that was just a fun phone call at the wrong time, I think. What do you mean you want me to talk about that? I just let him have it. I felt so bad. You know, you just in that moment, you break in, it's on that person you just has nothing to do with anything in society. Like the cashier. I did that to the poor college recruiter who just called me on the worst day ever.

ANNE: It's possible. We all know exactly what you were talking about. I know I do.

SAI: Yes.

ANNE: So tell me about a book that was not a good fit for you.

SAI: You know what wasn't a good fit for me? I wrote a couple down. But this one, Big Magic by Elizabeth Gilbert, oh, my God, I hated that book. I hated that book.

ANNE: I thought a little bit of magic never hurts.

SAI: A little bit of magic never hurts. It's just in the way that she describes it because she just goes back and forth talking about, Okay, you want to have these big dreams and manifest and you know, you want to live your life creatively and all these other things. But if you think the arts are important or that they are vital to society, then they are not. You're not. This is not important. And if you disagree with that reader and she says this in the book verbatim, if you disagree with that reader, then I'm afraid we must part ways right now.

And I was like, "Sure." And I did. I say, no, you don't get to... like rules of your life is made through a living by writing. And then also, how dare you say it this doesn't create a vital component in our society? Elizabeth [girl?] is talk girl. You know, I ain't trying to give you more hate mail because you already got enough of that. But like, dang. When you be saying things like this, come on now, Controversy queen, stop it.

ANNE: You anticipated my question, which was, did you keep reading or was that it?

SAI: Mm-mm.

ANNE: Sai, what have you been reading lately?

[00:33:53] SAI: I've been reading a bunch of stuff about immigrants weirdly enough. I did a lot of cozy reading where I was just rereading stuff that was just my favorites, like what I mentioned earlier, like Howl's Moving Castle, His Dark Materials series by Philip Pullman.

The only new things that have been entering my life have been more immigrant kind of stories, which, oh, this is surprising me. I'm like, Oh, yeah, but... you know, I get it because I'm in transition in my own life. So it makes sense that I think to me that I'm gravitating towards people who are struggling with identity in this way as well and in trying to make peace with their past. So with that, to answer your direct question, what I have been reading recently has been Magic Fish by Trung Le Nguyen and the other one, Exit West by Mohsin Hamid.

ANNE: Interesting. Okay. Now, Sai, what are you looking for in your reading life right now?

[00:34:45] SAI: I am looking for the next vehicle of my life, which sounds like a giant request. I am looking for a book that will grab me and choose me and chase me and my brain until I accept that it is just a part of the fabric of who I am, just like all the books that have shaped me before. And I guess I want to add on to the tapestry of the greatest books of my life that I need in my life, which is so simple. No pressure, Anne.

ANNE: Look, I will just tell you right now, let's define our terms, Sai. I can't make a book change your life, but I can perhaps introduce you to things that you might not have found otherwise or might not have found yet. And even if these books aren't the one where you feel like you can hop in and go for the next five years, maybe they'll lead you to other books. Maybe they can be a stepping stone on your way to that next life-changing reading.

SAI: Yes, and I'm fine with that.

[00:35:51] ANNE: Is that a very eloquent way to hopefully lower some expectations?

SAI: Yes, my expectations are lowered. And I'll help you rephrase it too. I want a map. This is a map. You're giving me a map that I can use to hopefully find some orientation and a direction. I can go anywhere on the map. I just need a map first, right?

ANNE: So a map to find your life-changing reads.

SAI: Yeah, I am looking for a map to find my life-changing reads.

ANNE: And I'm remembering that a little bit of magic doesn't hurt.

SAI: Yeah. A little touch of magic doesn't hurt nobody.

ANNE: Okay. Now, tell me about finding authors from all over the world, because I know that's something that's important to you as well.

SAI: Yes. There is a thing that I learned whenever I was studying English in college called Post-colonialism. It's like a whole literary theory thing. And I won't bog you down with that. But the way our teacher explained it, she was like, "So you think you're in a literature course and that you're doing this because you love literature, but all you read are white authors from America and or the West. Have you read anything that's been like from Eastern cultures? Have you ever even looked at what Confucius wrote? Have you ever even looked at...?" Oh, let me stop there because otherwise I just sound like Pocahontas. Have you ever read a book by-

ANNE: That sounded promising. You could just sing it.

[00:37:19] SAI: If I could just sing all of it. Have you ever read a book by someone not White? Get copyrights. So, yeah. When she told me that, I realized that I have too many of those authors in my books. And even getting just like the Black American authors into my diet, you know, Toni Morrison, James Baldwin, Jacqueline Woodson, it still didn't feel like it was enough because this is the danger of a single story. I realized that's why I kept drifting towards science fiction and fantasy is because I wanted a story where... You know, it's like Star Trek, where we're all just in space and all these shenanigans are happening and we just so happen to be Black, we just happen to be gay, we just so happen to be these other things.

Whereas so much of... not even prestige, just like Black American literature is just almost survivalist to a degree. Like this is the work we need to express how we feel so we can talk about it in public because we can't talk about mental health, we can't talk about our emotions, we can't talk about our family damage and trauma, and how that has unilaterally shaped us across the board. But we can talk about For Colored Girls, you know, we can talk about The Bluest Eye.

Sometimes I just want to give us a break. I'm like, what's the book that we go to to give us a break? What's the story that gives us some safety, we're like, yeah, we're not shying away from the fact that the world is a dark, scary mess. But if this is all we consume, how do we do anything but be depressed, angry messes, which I'm not saying that's the whole point of Black art and that that's all we contribute. But so much of what makes it onto the feeds of social media and the news are exactly those types of books.

[00:39:15] Remember that "we suffered" should be the like the name of everything. And it doesn't help because people don't know how to see us outside of that. And I'm like, "Why can't we start viewing ourselves like magical creatures? Or not just magical creatures, but just more than just this, more than just a victim, more than just one thing? You know, I mentioned Toni Morrison earlier. To be clear, I don't think she does that or like, you know... I know Why The Caged Bird Sings by Maya Angelou and books like those where it's like, we're overcoming trauma, we're overcoming things. I just want to be in space sometimes.

ANNE: I love it.

SAI: That's why I was led to immigrant in books because I was like, Yes, the story about transition via magical means or not means a lot to me because it feels like we're carrying and learning what we have to let go and say goodbye to in order to get to that next version of ourselves.

ANNE: Ooh. A map to find the next version of yourself. I like that concept.

SAI: Yes. I've been reading to find a map, to find the next version of myself. Yes. I love how you put things.

[00:40:20] ANNE: Sai, I basically just repeated your own words back to you. But let's be clear.

SAI: That's why I love it. Great minds think alike. You're hired.

ANNE: And you're open to surprises.

SAI: I am so open to surprises.

ANNE: All right, let's take a trip around the world. This will be fun.

SAI: Yes.

ANNE: Sai, the books you love, Station Eleven by Emily St. John Mandel, Circe by Madeline Miller, and Garlic and Sapphires by Ruth Reichl. Not for you, Big Magic by Elizabeth Gilbert. Lately, you've been revisiting some favorites from your past, like Howl's Moving Castle by Diana Wynne Jones, His Dark Materials by Philip Pullman, Magic Fish by Trung Le Nguyen. And you've been reading a lot of immigrant stories like Exit West by Mohsin Hamid, and you're scanning the horizon for a book that could mean a lot to you in the years to come.

SAI: Yeah.

ANNE: You're open to surprises and you want books from all over the world. What you said in your submission is you can only think of American and British authors for the questions we ask on that guest form, and you find it really frustrating. So you want to just get out into some new and less explored territory?

[00:41:35] SAI: Yes. With crazy new perspectives, ways that people write, what does poetry sound like in your language or I guess in your rhythm of speech or I guess poetic writing? How does that sound to you? Which has been leading me to a lot of like Middle Eastern authors at the moment, I think. A surfaced poet that I liked Hafiz, I believe, was the name. I was like, Oh, I love how it's still poetry, but it's not in any meter or rhyme scheme that I'm familiar with. It isn't familiar. And I love that. I love to some degree, always being in the unknown.

ANNE: That's so interesting. Sai, let's see what we can do.

SAI: Yey.

ANNE: How do you feel, first of all, about going to Japan?

SAI: In a heartbeat.

ANNE: Okay. Have you read the works of Banana Yoshimoto? Please say no. I'd love to introduce you.

SAI: No.

[00:42:30] ANNE: Okay. Well, something I like about Banana Yoshimoto for you is that she has been writing for a long time. She's written upwards of 20 books. About half of them have been translated into English. So if you like one, you can keep going. Her big themes are death and fate. So her best-known book is Kitchen. And I think this could be an excellent place to start. It's the introduction to her work for a lot of readers, both in Japan and at the US.

The book is told in almost two shorts, short novellas, short story. The first one is really representative. Actually, they're all representative of her work. Themes that she keeps coming back to in her work are death and fates. And the plot is often there's a young woman who's finding in her way in the world, and she's often dealing with grief. And it's really interesting.

You could go down a Banana Yoshimoto rabbit hole if you wanted to. She talks about how she has always been fascinated with death. And she has something very specific in her life that she attributes this to. And you could go down a Wikipedia rabbit hole if you wanted to. But she believes that hearing about the very public death of a Japanese author named Yukio Mishima when she was a child really made a big impression on her. And that's one of those big themes that stuck in her brain and has really influenced her writing throughout.

[00:43:51] I like her for you because the perspective does not feel Western. Like it'll feel very different to you, I think. And her stories are very pragmatic. Very let's talk about how to live life. Like they're very philosophical in matter of fact. And at the same time, they're not realistic. Like her characters say things that you would never actually say to another human being.

And there's magical realism present in so many of her books, like lots of ghosts and fantastical angles and things that do not exist. And they coexist with that philosophical matter-of-fact approach. And I think based on what you're interested in, you'll kind of really like that approach. Like, a touch of magic never hurt. They're talking about the important stuff. They're talking about how to live. They're talking about how to be in the world, often talking about coming to terms with something difficult and growing through that. I think that could be good for you.

But in her best-known book, Kitchen, in the opening, just to give you a flavor, a young woman's family all dies. She lost her parents a long time ago, if I remember correctly, her grandmother dies early in the story, so she moves in with a boy and his mother. The mother is transgender, which is really emblematic of her work as well. She does a lot of interesting things with gender. And she is going to find her way through.

[00:45:04] I also love her newer collection for you. It just came out in the U.S. a couple of years ago. It's called Dead End Memories. This is a short story collection. I believe they're five stories here. The first is called House of Ghosts. It's about a couple who moves into a house and there are ghosts there, Sai. And we see what that means for their relationship and for the ghosts themselves.

And something that's also really interesting about her work, just because of the translation factor is Dead-End Memories was published in 2003 in Japan. At least one of the stories was published all the way back in the 80s, but we're just now getting it in the U.S..

And Kitchen has been around for forever. Like Yoshimoto is still writing. She's in her 50s now. She started in her 20s. But Kitchen was one of the books that she first wrote and readers are still discovering it and excited to do so every day. So I really like this author and where this author could lead you. How does that sound?

SAI: Exciting. I've been writing it down, too. I know you're going to send me there later, but yay! The Libby app is up. Okay, keep going.

[00:46:10] ANNE: I love it. Okay, next I want to go to Nigeria and I think this book is perfect for you, but also I feel like I need to offer an equivocation.

SAI: Mm-hmm.

ANNE: But first, let's start with the author. So this is by Ani Kayode Somtochukwu. It's called And Then He Sang a Lullaby. And I'm excited for you to know about this new imprint from Roxane Gay at Grove Atlantic. If you don't, this is the inaugural book. The plan is to publish three books a year from undiscovered voices, from voices that have been marginalized and had a hard time gaining access through traditional publishing channels. These are voices she wants to elevate.

And the story is out of Nigeria, the author is only 23 years old. This is his debut.

SAI: What?

ANNE: I know. And it was plucked from the slush pile by one of Roxane Gay's readers, which is something that she says she does. They accept unsolicited manuscripts, which isn't really done in publishing these days, but she thought it was really important for those reasons, for voices that haven't been able to find an outlet to end up in print. And the author has been in the U.S. for a book tour this summer. It's been his first time outside Nigeria. If you Google, you can find Roxane Gay interviewing him about this work online.

[00:47:28] But this is a story about two young men who fall in love in college. One is wealthy, well-liked, he totally passes for straight. Nobody questions him. And the reason he wants to, I mean, among other reasons is that homosexuality is illegal. And this is factually true right now today in Nigeria. This is a contemporary novel.

The other, the man he falls in love with, he's out, he's political, he's an activist, he's flamboyant, he's from a different class than August. His family isn't from money. And he has been frequently targeted with bullying and crimes and hurt because of being out in this culture.

So what this novel does is explore their love story, what happens afterwards, and also how people respond differently to the oppressive culture in Nigeria and how love is possible when this is the cultural landscape. And you talked about how stories that are unrelentingly sad and bleak are not what you want.

[00:48:30] But the reason that I want to put this on your radar, and while I am recommending it, though, with some hesitation, as you hear, is that the author is... he says above all, above even being a novelist at this point, he is an activist. And he says what he wants people to know about him—I think he said this in the York Times—is that he is an African queer liberation activist who believes that Africa is my home, that it is a home for queer people. That he truly believes that, and he wants to make that even more true practically. And that with his fiction, he hopes to be advancing that goal. So even though there are some rough things that happen in this book, his aims are hopeful and optimistic. How does that sound?

SAI: Oh, that sounds like something to sink the teeth in. I found it, too. It's almost scary. It's almost like a horror book. Almost. I'm like, Ooh! It's how I'm approaching it.

ANNE: And how do you feel about that?

SAI: Hesitant, but not because of the content. Just hesitant, like, woo, can I handle that roughness? Is it going to come at me too harsh. But excited. Like, almost like jumping in a pool and not even on the deep side, I just want to know if the water is warm or not.

[00:49:47] ANNE: I love that metaphor. That's a really good metaphor. I want to honor that hesitation and also urge you to keep an eye out for other books from Roxane Gay's imprint, because I think she is curating a collection of books that you would just want to know were out in the world, and then you can decide to read them. But I think she's curating a small collection, and it'll be real easy for you to take a look at.

All right, Sai. And for our third book, not taking you around the world exactly, more like to a different world altogether. Have you read This Is How You Lose the Time War by Amal El-Mohtar and Max Gladstone?

SAI: No. But that title alone, ooh, set your phasers to stun.

ANNE: It's such a great title, right? And you mentioned being interested in poetry. This is not a work of poetry, but El-Mohtar is a Canadian poet as well as a writer of speculative fiction, which is what is on offer here. If you care about such things, this novel or novella, I would say, has won a slew of awards. And it's told epistolary style.

So in this book, enemy agents develop an unlikely correspondence because one discovers a letter. Their names are red and blue. And then this novella, they're traveling through different timelines in their race to win the Time War. And yes, of course, you hear all about what that is, how it came to be and what it means. And they're each going back to different points in history to affect the outcome of this time war they're engaged in. So the letters kind of start out as the ties between rivals, but they evolve into a Sapphic love story. But there's a war going on and only one side can win. Bom, bom, bom. How does that sound?

SAI: Oh, you hit it. I forgot to mention how much I actually love lesbian drama. So yes. Yes. In real life and in fiction. Yes.

[00:51:41] ANNE: Well, I'm glad I intuited that. So going to another world, how does that sound to you?

SAI: Oh, yeah, fine. I'm fine.

ANNE: Did your ears pick up at Epistolary as well or am I wrong?

SAI: Yes. Oh, I love. I got a bunch from this show as well. And I love that episode because I was like, "Oh, I love these books."

ANNE: Oh, that's right. Well, I'm glad to hear it because that is what you have here. You have part epistolary romance, but you also have your out-there science fiction adventure that I hope blows your mind a little bit.

SAI: Yey, excellent. The only other epistolary sci-fi thing I think I've got in my stack was Atlantis or something about Atlantis. And it was letters from somebody who's in the past on the continent of Atlantis to their correspondent in the future. It's an old book. That's the last thing I've got in my thing with epistolary meets science fiction, and I'm just stoked.

[00:52:37] ANNE: I love it. Now, I have heard that this is one of those books that you not only can read over and over again, but even that you should read more than once because that's the only way you're going to appreciate everything that's happening in the story and all the layers that she's built into it. I don't know for myself, but having this conversation makes me want to go find out.

SAI: Yes.

ANNE: Okay, Sai, let's recap and take a look at these books. So we talked about the works of Banana Yoshimoto. Is it good to know or disappointing to hear that Banana is a pen name?

SAI: Oh, it is disappointing.

[00:53:11] ANNE: And I didn't say that then. You could start anywhere. But I think Kitchen and Dead-End Memories are really great entry points. And I know that you're a user of that Libby app. I think they're most likely to have those two books.

SAI: They are.

ANNE: We talked about And Then He Sang a Lullaby by Ani Kayode Somtochukwu. This is the first book from Roxane Gay's brand new imprint at Grove Atlantic set in Nigeria. And then we talked about the otherworldly speculative adventure, This is How You Lose the Time War by Amal El-Mohtar and Max Gladstone. Sai, of those books, what do you think you'll read next?

SAI: I feel like I'm going to do This is How You Lose the Time War just based off of my own reaction in my heart, which all of this spark joy. But the one who spoke to the most joy was this one. I'm like, Oh, the title alone. Then the premise. And then if I could rank them, it's going to be this one and then Banana and then And Then He Sang a Lullaby. Wow, That's the sentence.

ANNE: I love it. Sai, thanks so much for coming on and talking books with me today.

SAI: Thank you so much for letting me talk books and life and everything else.

[00:54:29] ANNE: Hey readers, I hope you enjoyed my discussion with Sai, and I'd love to hear what you think he should read next. Find Sai at @Sighmabean on Twitter and Instagram, and see the full list of titles we talked about at whatshouldireadinextpodcast.com.

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Thanks to the people who make this show happen. What Should I Read Next? is created each week by Will Bogel, Holly Wielkoszewski, and Studio D Podcast Production. Readers, that's it for this episode. Thanks so much for listening. And as Rainer Maria Rilke said, "Ah, how good it is to be among people who are reading." Happy reading, everyone.