Anne Bogel [00:00:00] Do you know this?

Caitlin Moran [00:00:01] No, I don't know this.

Anne Bogel [00:00:03] If this was set in New Orleans, I'd be like, "Our podcast is over. This is the book. We're done. Go buy it today."

Hey readers, I'm Anne Bogel and this is What Should I Read Next?. Welcome to the show that's dedicated to answering the question that plagues every reader, what should I read next? We don't get bossy on the show. What we will do here is give you the information you need to choose your next read. Every week we'll talk all things books and reading and do a little literary matchmaking with one guest.

[00:00:43] First, I want to tell you that the My Reading Life book journal is back in stock wherever you like to buy your new books. Friends, I didn't even realize it was out of stock until I heard it from you. So thanks as always for letting me know what your experience in the literary marketplace is like. You can order your copy of

My Reading Life from big box retailers like Target or Amazon, you can grab it on bookshop.org, or purchase a copy from your favorite independent bookstore.

You can always order a signed copy from my local independent bookstore, that's Carmichael's Bookstore, here in Louisville, Kentucky. That not only goes for the My Reading Life book Journal but also the My Reading Adventures kids journal, my essay collection I'd Rather Be Reading, and helpful and entertaining nonfiction books, Don't Overthink It and Reading People, which is all about personality typing. Buying this book supports the work of the show and sustains my work as a creator. So thank you so much for your purchase.

[00:01:35] Now for today's episode. Our guest, Caitlin Moran, shared a common reading dilemma in her submission form. She is eager to expand her identity as a reader, but isn't sure where to start when it comes to unfamiliar genres. Caitlin enjoys reading along with her book club and finding new titles at her favorite indie bookstores in the Pacific Northwest, where she lives with her fiancée and works as a therapist.

In fact, it's that book club experience that has really piqued her curiosity. Several titles have unexpectedly delighted Caitlin, and now she's curious what else might be out there that she will also love. Caitlin would love my help finding non-intimidating recommendations that serve as easy entry points for genres she doesn't typically read, like science fiction and fantasy, as well as genres where she's just begun to explore, like historical fiction.

Our conversation also leads us to explore spooky books and titles set in New Orleans for reasons you will hear. Those are two themes I expect many of you will love. I'm so excited to share recommendations that will support Caitlin's quest, and I can't wait for you to listen in on this wonderful conversation. Let's get to it.

Caitlin, welcome to the show.

Caitlin Moran [00:02:40] Thank you so much. It's good to be here.

Anne Bogel [00:02:43] Oh, the pleasure's mine. I've been looking forward to this. And thank you so much for submitting in our guest submission form at whatshouldireadnextpodcast.com/guest. Our team was really excited about what you told us, and I'm so excited our listeners get to hear all about your reading life today.

Caitlin Moran [00:02:58] That is so good to hear. I never anticipated that my submission would be picked, so it's really cool to be here.

Anne Bogel [00:03:05] Oh, it's a question of timing. I was going to say fate, but can I say that to a therapist?

Caitlin Moran [00:03:12] Sure. Definitely.

Anne Bogel [00:03:14] All right, Caitlin, on that note, tell us a little bit about yourself so we can give our readers a glimpse of who you are.

Caitlin Moran [00:03:21] I am a therapist. I'm working out of Vancouver, Washington. I've been doing that for about three years. It is awesome. I'm originally from California, and gosh, throughout the pandemic was originally in Portland and then I moved to Texas and then I moved to Vancouver, Washington. So I feel like I've been floating from state to state for a few years now. Fortunately, therapy sessions can be done on Zoom because that has definitely been my life through the pandemic and even still now.

Anne Bogel [00:03:54] Oh, that was my commiseration laugh. Yes, yes, we know what that is like, many of us, including the online therapy part. Which I have to admit, I mean, I was going to say it isn't my favorite, but how does that strike you? Is that hard to hear or is that just like, oh, Anne, I know it?

Caitlin Moran [00:04:09] Oh, it's completely affirming because I feel the same way. I am glad it exists for accessibility reasons.

Anne Bogel [00:04:16] So glad.

Caitlin Moran [00:04:17] I have seen it be so helpful. But it's not quite the same as holding space with someone in a room. Like this confined, calming, tranquil environment. I love that. That's magical to me. But I do appreciate Zoom for the accessibility.

Anne Bogel [00:04:34] Mm-hmm. Oh, no, I definitely want to keep them. I'm glad it's an option. And yet I'd rather be on your couch than on your screen.

Caitlin Moran [00:04:41] Totally.

Anne Bogel [00:04:44] Does that feel a little bit like what we're doing today?

Caitlin Moran [00:04:46] You know, it actually does. And this was something I would tell my fiancé. I would say, What Should I Read Next? always strikes me as a therapy session in the best possible way because, Anne, I don't know if anyone has told you this, but you have a therapist voice, which is a compliment. It's very calming and very soothing.

And when we look at just the format of your show, I see you helping readers identify their reading identities, if that's making sense. You're using summary statements, reflective listening. You're addressing themes. Like, "These are the themes I'm seeing you like." And then I get to hear your guest say, "Oh, I guess those are the themes I'm drawn to," or "Oh, I didn't realize that about myself." So I feel like you're really helping readers with their reader identities, and that feels very therapisty to me.

Anne Bogel [00:05:41] You know, I considered going to therapy school when I was 22.

Caitlin Moran [00:05:45] You did? Oh, my gosh.

Anne Bogel [00:05:46] I did. I really did. But here I am.

Caitlin Moran [00:05:49] You know what? You're doing a different kind of therapy, and that is a blessing to us all.

Anne Bogel [00:05:55] I feel like that's something you can say as a therapy professional and I cannot say as a Bibliotherapy. But thank you. I appreciate that. Caitlin, now tell me a little bit about your reading life.

Caitlin Moran [00:06:06] So I'm a long term lover of books and reading and bookstores and libraries and everything that encompasses that. But I am a little bit of a seasonal reader in terms of I've gone through dry spells that maybe lasted years, but the love was still there it just wasn't prioritized. And I kind of feel like a new reader as a result, where I'm reading the most consistently I have ever read, which is incredibly exciting. But I still feel a little new to being someone who reads for sport with frequency.

Anne Bogel [00:06:47] That's so funny. I often say reading is not a competitive sport and yet reading for sport I totally understand what you're conveying there. So it sounds like this is a transition you've made in your life in recent years.

Caitlin Moran [00:07:00] Yeah. I definitely think this stemmed out of the pandemic because at that time I was living in Texas, my mom and sister were in California. We were not getting together. And, you know, the phone calls were great, but I feel like we needed something more. And thus a three-person book club was born. And I think that was sort of the starting point for me being a much more active reader was just having that accountability of I need to have this read by book club day at the end of the month. I'm really thankful for it because my reading life has really changed because we started that book club.

Anne Bogel [00:07:39] I'm so glad. What was the first book you all read together?

Caitlin Moran [00:07:42] It was an Elin Hilderbrand book, 28 Summers. That was our first pick.

Anne Bogel [00:07:50] Well, there is certainly plenty to talk about there. Okay. I'm thinking about talking about 28 Summers with my mom.

Caitlin Moran [00:07:57] Oh, yeah. Actually, it's really funny to have conversations with my mom when a book has maybe a lot of intimate detail, so to speak. Those are funny conversations.

Anne Bogel [00:08:11] I'm so glad that got you going again to find solace in books like you did in your past. Caitlin, I would love to hear you talk about being a slow reader. And first of all, I want to thank you for identifying yourself as such in our submissions. Something that I'm always dismayed to hear from readers is that they feel apologetic for being a slow reader. But I really think I have big feet and blue eyes and I can't change those things. And your reading speed, I think is also very much the same way. And I think we just can't say this enough on the show. So handing the mic over to you. Take it away.

Caitlin Moran [00:08:44] So being a slow reader is... I think the only frustration with it for me is that I can't get to more good content fast enough. And there's that part of me that worries that I'm going to set this book down, because that's part of what makes me slow is not just my reading speed, but setting it down. So part of the concern I have is if I set this down for too long it's going to disappear. The book will fall under the bed, I won't pick it up again.

Anne Bogel [00:09:14] Literally disappear.

Caitlin Moran [00:09:15] Totally. Totally. So it's a two-pronged slowness. I am a slow, actual reader and I lose books. And I got to tell you, there have been books that I have loved or was loving, lost the book in the trunk of my car and there goes that. And to this day, I haven't finished them. So part of what I would like to do is just build a little more consistency in terms of I am picking the book up frequently and maybe I'm only reading two pages. It doesn't have to be a 50 page sprint for it to be meaningful.

Anne Bogel [00:09:55] Because you mentioned that you're terrified of putting it down, but putting it down doesn't slow you down. It's the not picking it back up.

Caitlin Moran [00:10:03] Yeah, it's the putting it down and then a whole bunch of laundry gets piled on top of it. It's almost like out of sight, out of mind, which is so not fair. And another piece of that, too, is if I don't bookmark it, that stresses me out. So I almost find that I start to avoid a book if I don't know where I am in the book, because then it's like, what if I open it up to the wrong page, I see some sort of spoiler because I'm just trying to make my way back to where I was. So I have found that that also makes me avoid reading is when I'm like when it's not dog-eared, when it's not, you know, bookmarked.

Anne Bogel [00:10:46] So what are some things you found effective to get you to pick up the book again and to get you to feel like you're oriented and you're ready to go, you're ready to read?

Caitlin Moran [00:10:54] Having a clean nightstand.

Anne Bogel [00:10:56] Oh, that's so interesting because that's not directly reading-related. It's reading adjacent and yet... Tell me more about how this works for you.

Caitlin Moran [00:11:04] Having just a clear visual to the book I'm reading, like the beautiful, you know, jacket cover of it, that's really inviting in a way that it being, you know, tossed around or under the bed is not. So if I can keep that clean and have "here's the spot for the book", that is really effective.

Another thing that I think is effective for me and I don't want it to be but is reading on like the Kindle on my phone, which is absolutely fine. That's effective for me because that book is always there and the spot is always saved in terms of where I am in the book. But the trouble I have with that is that I really love having physical copies of books because they're so beautiful and they feel like friends. So I'm struggling to go the Kindle route even though that's probably going to be more reliable for me to have that book.

Anne Bogel [00:12:01] Oh, that's so interesting to me that you know this works and you don't want it to.

Caitlin Moran [00:12:08] Yeah.

Anne Bogel [00:12:10] What do you tell yourself to make yourself feel better about that, that hard truth?

Caitlin Moran [00:12:15] Well, so I kind of compromise with it. I will read on Kindle when it's not a book I'm very excited about. And sometimes I end up loving that book, surprisingly. But I struggle to get books that I am very enthused about on a Kindle platform because I'm like, "I just have to have you on the shelf or on the nightstand."

Anne Bogel [00:12:38] Okay, so you're going to keep a clean nightstand.

Caitlin Moran [00:12:40] Mm-hmm.

Anne Bogel [00:12:40] And I really like that you've noticed that sometimes the books you read on Kindle that you don't anticipate loving have turned out to be big hits for you because I would hate to see reading become less desirable because you've chosen a format you know works, but books that you don't think are going to work as well.

Caitlin Moran [00:12:56] Exactly.

Anne Bogel [00:12:57] Okay.

Caitlin Moran [00:12:58] And I tell myself too, like, if I want to be extra exorbitant, like, let's say I read a book on Kindle, ended up loving it, if I really need that book as a friend on my shelf, then I can just buy that book. And that, you know, probably wouldn't happen all the time. But it does comfort me to say, If you need a hard copy of that book after you finish it on Kindle, you can get a hard copy of that book. That's fine.

Anne Bogel [00:13:22] You can. You have options.

Caitlin Moran [00:13:24] Yeah.

Anne Bogel [00:13:25] Okay. So you like to have options. You remind yourself you have options, and that works for you.

Caitlin Moran [00:13:29] Mm-hmm.

Anne Bogel [00:13:30] Okay. I like it. Oh, thank you for sharing your hard-won wisdom with us here. See, you say that you're new to reading for sport, and yet you have so much to share and so much insight you've already gleaned about yourself.

Caitlin Moran [00:13:41] I guess that's true. Yeah.

Anne Bogel [00:13:44] Caitlin, you mentioned being a somewhat seasonal reader. Would you tell me more about that as well?

Caitlin Moran [00:13:49] Seasonal reading for me, if I'm not thinking about it like there are dry spells for me, if I'm thinking about the other kind of seasonal reading, I like to read to match the environment. So let's just say fall for me, October for me, I like to read mysteries, thrillers, things that feel brooding, things that feel like crisp bottom air. I love that because to me that's just amplifying the environment around me. I like that a lot. Same with Winter. Like, that's when I want to read a Christmas read. Maybe that's a little cliché, but it's magical.

Another thing that I really like to do is if I'm going to travel somewhere, I love to find a book that is set in the place that I'm going to be traveling to. For me, it just heightens that anticipation. And the next place I'm going is I'm going to be in New Orleans in October. And right now, I'm still kind of mulling on what could be the New Orleans read. What is going to get me hyped about being in that city? So that would be something that I'm actively considering right now.

Anne Bogel [00:15:01] Do you want to say more about your trip because you told us about this in your submission?

Caitlin Moran [00:15:04] I do. I got engaged last summer and my partner and I—her name is Leslie, she is wonderful—we decided to elope because we're kind of introverted. We don't really want the big wedding and the dance. And that's all fine and wonderful for others. We would struggle with it. So for us, eloping was spot on. Just a small elopement with family. And we chose New Orleans because we are spooky girls. We love travel. We love history. We love ghost stories. We love haunted places. I feel so silly saying that, but we love that kind of thing. So New Orleans-

Anne Bogel [00:15:49] I'm grinning so big right now.

Caitlin Moran [00:15:50] Oh, yeah. I love it. Love haunted things. I think Kentucky... doesn't that have Waverly Sanatorium, is what it's called?

Anne Bogel [00:16:00] Yes, but the only thing we ever go there for is—Oh, Caitlin, this is going to be so disappointing—the mountain bike trail.

Caitlin Moran [00:16:08] That sounds magical in its own right.

Anne Bogel [00:16:14] But I love that from the Pacific Northwest. You knew that about Kentucky.

Caitlin Moran [00:16:18] And I really got the name right?

Anne Bogel [00:16:20] You did? Mm-hmm.

Caitlin Moran [00:16:21] Oh, I'm impressed. Okay. So, you know, New Orleans is filled with that kind of thing. And something that we joke about together is that there is nothing more romantic for us than a haunted house experience, whether it's, you know, a Halloween haunted house or whether it's a site that's, you know, allegedly haunted. I know not everyone buys into that. But it's fun. So we're kind of excited to spend a week there and not only have this wonderful ceremony but also just get to explore the surroundings. And we're going to tope both of our families there, and they can watch us geek out on how magical this spooky spot is.

Anne Bogel [00:16:59] You celebrate a different aspect of love.

Caitlin Moran [00:17:01] Yeah, exactly.

Anne Bogel [00:17:04] I love it. Thank you for telling us about your elopement and your trip. And oh, gosh, I know that somebody listening right now is thinking, Caitlin, I have the perfect haunted house spooky New Orleans read that has not come to me yet. Maybe it will by the time we get to that section. But I really want you to get that from the universe. You said that you'd like to find a New Orleans read. Does that mean you haven't really investigated yet?

Caitlin Moran [00:17:24] I really haven't yet.

Anne Bogel [00:17:26] Oh, that's good news for me.

Caitlin Moran [00:17:27] It's on my to-do list. And I will even say it doesn't even have to be spooky. Setting alone will get me excited. So, you know, the world is your oyster in terms of New Orleans reads.

Anne Bogel [00:17:41] Well, we are going to lean into that shortly, but first, we're going to talk about your books. Are you ready to talk about what you love?

Caitlin Moran [00:17:46] Yes, I am.

Anne Bogel [00:17:49] Caitlin, I'm so excited. You know how this works. You're going to tell me three books you love, one book you don't, and what you've been reading lately. And we're going to find some picks that are right for your reading life right now and I think for your reading life come October as well. How did you choose these?

Caitlin Moran [00:18:06] Hmm, it was hard. It was hard to choose. And I considered books that had just stayed with me for a long time, books that I find memorable. One of these has been with me since I was probably 15, and I'm in my 30s now, so it's stood the test of time.

Anne Bogel [00:18:22] I'm so intrigued to find out what that book is that stuck with you for... I mean, we're talking about half your life, right?

Caitlin Moran [00:18:28] Mm-hmm. Oh, yeah.

Anne Bogel [00:18:29] Okay. Excellent. You have to tell us which one it is. Caitlin, tell me about the first book you love.

Caitlin Moran [00:18:35] So the first book that I love has not been with me for half my life, but it has been with me for close to ten years. And this book was easy pick for me because it might be my favorite book to this day. It is The Miseducation of Cameron Post by Emily M. Danforth. I love this book so much. This is a young adult novel, which is really not my genre. But this one reads with such sophistication, and I love it.

So it's basically a coming-of-age story about a 12-year-old who's coming to terms with her sexuality in rural Montana in the 1990s. And the setting, I love. Like I never knew I was interested in Montana until I read this. And the author just conjures that place so beautifully, so descriptively. And I loved that part of it.

And the other thing that really excites me about this book is it being 90s… I love anything that's a throwback to the 90s. So this was just such a cool read to read a coming of age novel in the 1990s when I would have been coming of age and it being about this girl coming to terms with being gay in a pretty unhospitable environment. So relatable and so beautiful.

I think this book found me at just the right time, because at the time I found it, I was probably like, I don't know, early 20s or something like that and I had just had a break up and I was lonely and vulnerable and I needed a friend. And this book became my friend and it was everything that I needed. And when I think about young adult novels, this kind of cracks me up. I feel like I have gravitated to young adult novels in my adult life when I've had a breakup. And it might be because when I've had a breakup, I feel angsty and almost like a teen again. And so this book hit me right at the point where I was nice and emotional and I have loved it ever since. I read it in print from the library and got it on Audible, and now I probably listen to it once every couple of years.

Anne Bogel [00:20:51] Oh, wow. I'm so glad that this book came into your life at exactly the right time. And it's so interesting to hear you reflect on your relationship with YA novels. One of my favorite descriptions of YA books on the podcast is quite old. It's from Preston Yancey and one of our very early... I think it's one of the first ten episodes from February 2016.

But he talks about how he's quite eloquent and humorous. Like I remember him cracking me up. But I remember him saying basically, like in YA novels, like you are feeling all the feelings. And he was describing a specific kind of YA novel and riffing on one of his favorites, because we're not going to put like YA as a category in this box. But like all the big feels was the thing he was there for. And what you're describing just now about when you come to YA books just brought that conversation rushing back to mind.

Caitlin Moran [00:21:43] Oh, completely. Completely. I think it just speaks to just being in that super emotional state. There's something so satisfying about reading something that just conjures all of the feels. So relatable. I definitely think that that would be, I imagine, present in many YA novels.

Anne Bogel [00:22:04] Yes. And for you then, and since, it's been The Miseducation of Cameron Post by Emily M. Danforth. Caitlin, I have to ask, have you read her 2020 novel Plain Bad Heroines?

Caitlin Moran [00:22:15] No, but the title excites me. I haven't even looked into it, but just that title alone has stood out to me.

Anne Bogel [00:22:22] Oh, Caitlin, it's spooky. Do you know this?

Caitlin Moran [00:22:26] No, I don't know this.

Anne Bogel [00:22:27] If this was set in New Orleans, I'd be like, "Our podcast is over. This is the book. We're done. Go buy it today and cancel your appointments." But this book is set 100 years ago at the Brookhants—not spelled like a hunting but you're supposed to read it as one—School for Girls. I think it's in New England, but do not hold me to this.

But there are two girls students at the school. They are deeply in love and they are obsessed with a writer who wrote a scandalous, bestselling memoir that these girls take very seriously. But when they have a rendezvous and the apple orchard nearby, things go terribly, horribly wrong back in 1902 and the place has been haunted ever since.

So 100 years later, three women are brought together to make a film about all the ghostly happenings that have taken place at Brookhants, and things once again go horribly wrong because, of course, the place is haunted. Who is in any doubt? There is a recurring motif of yellow jackets that is seriously, seriously spooky. I think this could totally be a horror novel for wimps and scaredy cats because I am definitely in that group. It's more spooky than scary. It has horror elements. I mean, this is not like reading [in?] or the shining. But since you loved her debut and you love spooky stuff, you need to know about this.

Caitlin Moran [00:23:46] Anne, I have to tell you, I straight up have goosebumps right now because that sounds magical. Like no pun intended, that sounds totally magical. And I feel silly that I never looked into that novel. I loved her debut and how did I not go to book two? Because that sounds honestly phenomenal. So I'm excited about that.

Anne Bogel [00:24:12] I'm so glad. And I just want to say, you don't know what you don't know. And she's only written two books and they came out in 2012 and 2020 a long way apart. And how many books that came out in 2020 completely missed our radars collectively?

Caitlin Moran [00:24:25] That is a good point.

Anne Bogel [00:24:27] I mean, I got you, Caitlin. It's good.

Caitlin Moran [00:24:30] And Anne, something else that is incredibly meaningful to me about The Miseducation of Cameron Post is that my fiancée got me that for a Christmas present. Now, I already had a copy of the book, so I didn't need a copy of the book. But what she did was she contacted the author, I don't know how she did this, and was basically like, "Hey, you wrote my girlfriend's favorite book, and I need a Christmas present. Would you sign a copy for her? It would mean so much to me. I'll pay whatever it takes. Can we make this happen?"

And the time frame that my fiancé did this in is kind of impressive. And on Christmas morning, I'm opening this gift from her and it is a signed copy from Emily M. Danforth. And she wrote the sweetest message inside. And she had said to Leslie, "Let me know how it all works out."

Anne Bogel [00:25:28] Oh.

Caitlin Moran [00:25:29] And so we still need to update her. It's worked out very well. We are going to get married. So I might even send this episode to the author and be like, "Yeah, thank you so much for signing that book for Leslie and me all those years ago back in 2018. We made it. So I have that copy of the book right here. And it's so sweet to see that message handwritten inside from her.

Anne Bogel [00:25:52] Oh, I love that so much. Oh, my goodness. Okay, we all know Emily M. Danforth wants to hear that story.

Caitlin Moran [00:25:58] Oh, totally. I hope it delights her.

Anne Bogel [00:26:02] It has to. She writes about healing, she doesn't have a heart of stone. Thank you, Emily. Caitlin, tell me about the second book you love.

Caitlin Moran [00:26:11] Yes. So the second book that I love is The Rumor by Elin Hilderbrand. And let me just say, when I was younger, I think I probably would have looked at beach reads and judged them, which is so silly because beach reads are wonderful. And I love Elin Hilderbrand and I have read a great many of her novels, which honestly, there's not many authors I can say that I've read multiple of their books, which is maybe a little unusual.

But my mom, sister and I love her books. So most of them, if not all of them, are set in Nantucket. They have a very small island feel. And the rumor is just this delicious story about... I mean, the title says it all. It's about, you know, two women and a little bit of scandal and some rumors and island life and a small kind of gossipy, small town communities. I just loved it. It was fun.

And I feel like Ellen Hilderbrand writes with such descriptive language. To me, it's a perfect escape read. And she brings that island to life for me, so much so that my mom and sister and I are planning to go there to go to Nantucket for my mom's 70th next year.

Anne Bogel [00:27:35] Are you really?

Caitlin Moran [00:27:36] Yeah. Yeah.

Anne Bogel [00:27:37] That's so fun.

Caitlin Moran [00:27:38] So another example of travel paired with a book and its setting.

Anne Bogel [00:27:44] That sounds amazing. What I remember about the story, because, you know I'm bringing my own set of experiences to this, it's about a writer with writer's block. That's something I really enjoyed reading about. And she gets out of it by writing the story of her best friend's scandalous affair with the gardener. Oh, it's just so fun.

I have to tell you that in Elin Hildebrand's new book that at the time this airs will have come out days, maybe a week or two prior, it's called The Five-Star Weekend, which is not a reference to the hotel Nantucket. That was after the five key reviews. This is about the stars represents great friends from each season of a woman's life, and they all get together on Nantucket.

But there's this one scene in a Nantucket bookstore that just made me chuckle because two of the friends who are gathered for this weekend are shopping, and one of them is a serious reader and the other is not. And there's a big discussion about one friend judging the other for buying a book with a turquoise blue cover by a local Nantucket author that we know is Elin Hildebrand, obviously. And the literary friend is like, "That's not any good." It's really funny.

But I will say the Wallace Stagner quote that I've said a zillion times on this podcast is from Crossing to Safety, "Hard writing makes for easy reading." And how fun to have a book that you and your mom and your sister could all enjoy and talk about and then take a trip because of together.

Caitlin Moran [00:29:05] Oh, absolutely. And we read her summer novel every year. So this will be the third year in a row where we will read her book in July. So I guess her books come out in June. So this is our third July where we're reading her latest book. And so we will be reading The Five Star weekend. It's very exciting because honestly when I reflect back to how this book club started, it started because we needed an outlet, right? We needed a way to visit. But we also... like the first conversation was, "Hey, we all notice that we love Elin Hilderbrand, we're all reading this one book at about the same time, let's go for it." So in a sense, Elin sort of started this book club for us because we all happen to really have our hands on a copy of 28 Summers back in the day.

Anne Bogel [00:29:57] Oh, thanks, Elin. I love it. I will tell you in advance, though, unlike last year, this year's book, no spookiness, no ghost narrator, no supernatural.

Caitlin Moran [00:30:08] That's okay. It's funny because my mom deplores fantastical or spooky or that kind of thing. That is not her jam. So it always kind of cracks me up when Elin does have some sort of a ghost narrator because she's done it a couple of times and my mom does end up enjoying it. And I'm like, "See, you do like a little bit of magical realism. You can handle a bit of fantasy."

Anne Bogel [00:30:29] Well, I'm glad that those novels have compelled her to branch out gently.

Caitlin Moran [00:30:32] Exactly.

Anne Bogel [00:30:32] And that you all got to enjoy them together and that you could have a good laugh, not at all at your mother's expense.

Caitlin Moran [00:30:38] Exactly.

Anne Bogel [00:30:40] Caitlin, tell me about the third book that you love.

Caitlin Moran [00:30:44] Okay, so this is the book that I have loved for about half of my life, and I have read it exactly once. It is White Oleander by Janet Fitch. I love this novel so much. And the reason I read it, if I had to guess, and I think I'm right, was because I had seen the movie and loved the movie. The book was phenomenal.

She writes just such descriptive, lyrical, almost flowery kind of language that I absolutely love. It just reads like poetry. And I marvel at the fact that she can write like this so poetically at the same time as she moves a plot forward. So I didn't really feel like it was slow or I was getting lost in these, you know, overwhelming descriptions that go on for pages and pages and pages. Instead, I just felt like she was lacing this plot with so much just analogy and metaphor. And just I guess the prose absolutely moved me. And I don't know if I've read a book that has struck me like that since.

Anne Bogel [00:31:56] Caitlin, I'm noticing that all your books have a strong sense of place in really vivid descriptions that let you visualize them in your mind so easily. Is that a theme?

Caitlin Moran [00:32:06] You know, that's funny because I did not identify that as a theme when I've self-reflected. That is totally a theme. I like a well painted place.

Anne Bogel [00:32:18] Hmm. I love the way you describe that. A well-painted place. We will keep that in mind as we move forward. Caitlin, tell me about a book that was not right for you.

Caitlin Moran [00:32:28] The book that was not right for me was The Paper Palace by Miranda Cowley Heller. I really wanted to love this book because the premise on the book jacket just sounded perfect for me right up my alley. So this was my mom's pick for book club. And when she read the premise to us, I was so excited. And then I dove right on in and I just found the whole thing just bleak. Like it felt bleak and dark and traumatic with nothing that really, for me at least, nothing that really tempered that bleakness.

And I can handle heavy topics. Heavy topics do not bother me. But this just felt like a lot. And there was no character that I was rooting for or that I particularly liked. And when I finished reading it, I just felt like I needed some validation. So I went on to Amazon or what have you and I was reading one-star reviews because I just wanted to get a sense of why do people maybe not love this one?

And one person had described it as portentous. I didn't even know what that word meant. I looked it up, essentially, meaning done in an overly solemn manner so as to impress. And that's how I felt about this book. And I will say I can appreciate why someone would love this. I can totally see why this would be up someone's alley. It just wasn't up mine. It was just too grim.

Anne Bogel [00:34:09] I will say this is a book that I also didn't finish. I think I listened to it before it came out, it would have been summer of 2021, and maybe I could do it now. But there's a lot of sexual abuse in this book. And when I got to the first instance, I was like, "Oh, I can't do this now."

Caitlin Moran [00:34:26] Totally.

Anne Bogel [00:34:28] This section of the show is always about a book that doesn't align with your taste needs, interests, not about a book that is poorly written. So it's interesting to see how this was not right for you, even though the description made it sound like it could be wonderful. I mean, it's all about relationships and a legacy passed through generations, but oh, it's a hard legacy.

Caitlin Moran [00:34:49] Oh, completely. You know, it makes sense to me why this would really strike someone. And I think it was well written too. It just themes-wise wasn't quite right for me.

Anne Bogel [00:35:00] Wasn't quite right. Caitlin, what have you been reading lately?

Caitlin Moran [00:35:05] I just finished The Cartographers by Peng Shepherd, and I really liked it. I read that for a separate book club, and it was really great. It had a magical realism quality to it that I really like and it was a fun mystery. It wasn't my favorite of all time, but it really fit the bill for what I was looking for. I also just finished, for a separate book club, Lessons in Chemistry by Bonnie Garmus. I loved that one. Absolutely loved that one. I thought it was quirky and fun. I do notice that that's a feel that I like in my books sometimes is that they're quirky and fun.

Anne Bogel [00:35:49] I love it. Caitlin, what are you looking for in your reading life right now? Aside from New Orleans picks because we're going to bring those for sure.

Caitlin Moran [00:35:58] I am looking for, I would say, either books that I already like, books that already have the feel that I love or gentle launches into genres I'm not as comfortable with. So essentially what I'm telling you is I'm very open but wouldn't mind a nudge in the direction of something that I'm just not familiar with.

Anne Bogel [00:36:25] What are some of those genres that you're intrigued by but that do feel very unfamiliar to you right now?

Caitlin Moran [00:36:31] I would say science fiction and fantasy. They're genres that I have no experience in at all, but I'm pretty interested in. And it's a little confusing to me why I'm interested in those genres, because I find them kind of hard to read honestly, and it's hard for me to suspend reality and kind of go to this other world. But I want to. Like I want to go to another world. I just don't have the skill set, I think, to pick out the book that's going to take me there.

Another genre that I have recently discovered that I do really like is historical fiction. And we in our book club had a few picks that would fall under that category. And I found myself really loving them. And I think that's in part because it almost feels like a deeper escape to me because I do read to escape. It feels like a deeper escape when I'm going to this other time where things just do not feel familiar.

So anything in the historical fiction genre would really speak to me, but I don't quite feel like I know what to choose. And then literary fiction I definitely feel intimidated by and I think there's that part of me that wants to read more literary fiction to feel very accomplished and intellectual. But I do really want to explore that genre. And to be honest with you, I don't even totally know what kind of books fall into that genre, but I know that that genre tends to be more character driven. And I do like a good character. So I would not mind learning more about literary fiction.

Anne Bogel [00:38:10] Oh, I love this. We have so much to work with. We could talk about books you may enjoy reading for days. We're not going to. Caitlin, the books you loved, we're going to revisit them real quick, The Miseducation of Cameron Post by Emily M. Danforth, The Rumor by Elin Hilderbrand, and White Oleander by Janet Fitch. The Paper Palace by Miranda Cowley Heller was not right for you. It was, in your word, bleak. And that was not a vibe that you're looking for at this point in your reading life.

Lately, The Cartographers by Peng Shepherd, Lessons in Chemistry by Bonnie Garmus. I'm remembering the word quirky. I'm remembering how you said in your submission that now you have a new appreciation for maps after reading The Cartographers. And you're looking for this gentle introduction to genres that you haven't been as comfortable with in the past. And of course, you're eloping to New Orleans in October. We're going to keep all these things in mind.

Where are we going to start? I just want to note that we've already talked about Plain Bad Heroines by Emily M. Danforth. I think that's an excellent place for you to start. Oh, there's so much we could get into. The Miseducation of Cameron Post makes me think of a couple of books that I wonder if you would enjoy. God Spare the Girls by Kelsey McKinney, The Book of Essie by Meghan MacLean Weir. But those aren't the ones I want to focus on today.

First, I want to tell you about my favorite New Orleans book, which is, I don't know, it feel like kind of out there. You haven't talked about mysteries and thrillers. What's your relationship with mysteries and thrillers?

Caitlin Moran [00:39:42] Anne, I love mysteries and thrillers. Honestly, that's probably the genre I know best. I would love a recommendation in that genre. To me, that's just super easy reading and it's fun. I love, love a mystery, all about it.

Anne Bogel [00:40:01] All right. This isn't the hesitation. That's me feeling like I might be judged. It's fine. I love The Pelican Brief by John Grisham so much. Have you read this one?

Caitlin Moran [00:40:12] No, I have not.

Anne Bogel [00:40:13] It's old. It's old. It's his third book, immediate follow-up to The Firm. It came out forever ago. Oh, my gosh, you love a 90s throwback vibe.

Caitlin Moran [00:40:20] Uh-huh. Yes, I do.

Anne Bogel [00:40:22] Oooh! Hey, I was thinking, this isn't modern, contemporary right now, New Orleans. But that's okay, we're going to throw you back to 90s New Orleans. If this were published today, we might call it an eco-thriller.

So the book opens in gripping fashion. Two members of the sitting U.S. Supreme Court are brutally murdered. Meanwhile, in New Orleans, Darby Shaw is a Tulane law student who wants to impress her professor who she happens to be dating. So when she finds out that they were murdered, she starts investigating. She wants to find out, like, "What in the world? That's weird. That's specific. That's directed. What is happening?"

And she writes this paper kind of saying, "Hey, what if?" She writes a paper that explores a theory and it's called The Pelican Brief. And she says, "I think somebody is trying to seat the court with justices who might be inclined to vote a specific way on this one particular case that's brewing in the Louisiana State court right now." And next thing she knows, people are dying in New Orleans connected to her brief.

And it's a big case. It's a legal thriller that involves scenes of people just running through the streets of the French Quarter trying to dodge the bad guys. And you know what? I'm not going to tell you how it ends. I'm not going to tell you how it ends. I think it could be a fun ride. Does that interest you?

Caitlin Moran [00:41:44] That interests me so much. I love a 90s thriller in terms of movie genres. Absolutely love going back in time to the 90s. This is a great idea, Anne, and I'm totally interested.

Anne Bogel [00:41:57] I'm happy to hear that. If you want a more contemporary New Orleans mystery, November Road by Lou Berney could be a good pick for you. Do you know this one?

Caitlin Moran [00:42:05] I haven't heard of this one.

Anne Bogel [00:42:07] You know, I was thinking of it as mystery, so I almost didn't want to mention it because you love mysteries, you read mysteries, you're comfortable with mysteries. But this is also historical. It's set against the backdrop of the JFK assassination. It's a cat and mouse crime novel. It's got a noir feel. The characters are mostly terrible people doing truly terrible things. It's about organized crime. But oh, it has such lush descriptions. Berney does such a great job of painting his places in this story. I think you could really enjoy this one. It's grisly in places. It's not bleak, but it's grisly. You should know that going in.

Caitlin Moran [00:42:46] Oh, I think that sounds good. I think that sounds really, really good. I love that there's a historical bent to it. That sounds spot on.

Anne Bogel [00:42:54] I'm happy to hear it. Okay. I want to give you a sci-fi book that could be a gentle introduction perhaps. This is from the 2023 Summer Reading Guide. It is The Road to Roswell by Connie Willis. And it's not out quite yet, I don't believe. Is this one you? What does that gast mean?

Caitlin Moran [00:43:11] Oh, I want to go to Roswell so bad. This is very exciting to me.

Anne Bogel [00:43:18] I'm happy to hear it. So this story opens with a wedding in a sense. The bride's best friend gets on a plane to fly to Roswell, New Mexico so she can be maid of honor in her wedding. And the best friend isn't super keen on the fact that the wedding is taking place in Roswell. The fiancée is way into all the happenings at Roswell. Like this is a destination wedding for a reason. It's his thing, it's not hers.

And the bestie who's going to be the maid of honor, she's not exactly supportive about the Roswell thing but of course, she's going to go stand up for her friend. So she gets to the airport, she realizes, Oh, there's like a big Roswell convention happening focused on extraterrestrial life and she's not real pumped about that either. You know all those weirdos are into these weird things. And how can they believe that?

And then she gets in her rental car and she buckles her seatbelt, and she looks to the passenger seat and there's an alien shaped like a tumbleweed who kidnaps her and takes her on a wild ride through New Mexico. Along the way, they pick up an interesting cast of characters with outsized personalities. This is the kind of book that I was reading in the couch in my family room going, "Oh, you guys listen to what the tumbleweed-shaped alien is doing now. You guys, listen to this ridiculous thing that's just happening in my book." Oh, my... Listen to the..." You know, it's so delightfully zany and bonkers and you want to go to Roswell. I mean, how does this sound to you?

Caitlin Moran [00:44:46] This sounds like so much fun. And I feel like it's capturing that part of me that wants to delve into sci-fi. And I feel like it's also capturing that part of me that love things that lean quirky and a little whimsical. This sounds like a blast.

Anne Bogel [00:45:00] Quirky and whimsical are excellent descriptions for this book. And I'm glad it sounds like a blast. I think it could be a really fun ride for you. Oh, gosh, we have so many books to talk about. Let's do a couple quick hits on exploring those new genres, and we're going to get New Orleans at the same time.

Caitlin Moran [00:45:15] Okay.

Anne Bogel [00:45:16] For literary, I really like Salvage the Bones by Jesmyn Ward for you. This is a hard book, but I think the tone could feel right to you and not pretentious. It's a National Book Award winner if you care about such things. And it follows a Mississippi family that is living in dire poverty during the 12 days leading up to Hurricane Katrina and its aftermath.

There's a 14-year-old narrator. Her name is Esch. She is pregnant. She tells us the story. And she does so using the outlines of the great myth of Jason and Medea, which you can enjoy the story not knowing that at all. But it's like a little... you want to explore some literary fiction, and that is a super literary thing to do. And the prose is so beautiful. You referenced really liking the way that the words fell in White Oleander. I think you'll find that here. So this is a hard book. Like it's painful, it's gritty, but it is not without hope, which is something that's important to a lot of readers.

Also, I know you said that YA isn't usually your genre, but I've noticed that you have... And I wouldn't call this a YA novel, though it is an Alex Award winner. That’s the award from the ALA that recognizes adult books that are of particular interest to teens. But two of your three favorites featured teen protagonists and narrators. So I'm just noting that for the record. I think this could be a good fit for you. That's Salvage the Bones by Jesmyn Ward.

Next, I want to try a historical novel. We mentioned November Road and how it is set in the past. But I want to do something that specifically in the French Quarter, and that is Out of the Easy by Ruta Sepetys. Is that a book you're familiar with?

Caitlin Moran [00:46:58] No.

Anne Bogel [00:46:59] Well, Entertainment Weekly calls this a haunting peek at the life of a teenage girl in 1950s New Orleans. At the center of the story is a girl who is 17 when we meet her, who I mean, she lives and works in a bookshop. She's smart. She has big dreams. She wants to go places, starting with college. She's torn between two intriguing and very different men. You can hear that we have some historical detail, some romance.

But then a murder takes place, and it seems her mother might be implicated. And that brings in a mystery thread. This is set largely in the French Quarter. Her mother, the one who's implicated in the murder, lives there in a brothel. She's described as the prostitute. I think you're really going to love the strong cast of characters in the... I was gonna say sweeping view, but maybe it's a very specific view of this certain place and time. How does that sound?

Caitlin Moran [00:47:51] That sounds riveting. Okay. I'm excited about that.

Anne Bogel [00:47:54] And because you love The Cartographers, I just have to throw in The Thread Collectors. This is by Shaunna J. Edwards, who is a debut author, and Alyson Richman, who is a seasoned author that really draws on the respective authors Black and Jewish Histories.

The story begins in 1863 New Orleans, and it weaves together a couple of intertwining stories. But one of those is that there is a woman who's effectively living as an enslaved woman who embroiders simple things. Like I think the first thing she embroiders in the story is a violet for her beloved, who she helps escape so he can leave the plantation there on together in Louisiana, where they fell in love and join the Louisiana Native Guard and fight for the Union Army.

She embroiders him a handkerchief. It's a violet, but really, it's a map that he can use to escape to safety. And that is a theme that we see pop up again and again in the story. And you said in your submission how The Cartographers gave you a new respect for an interest in maps. And I just love that really fun connection. Does that interest you, a Civil War narrative with the embroidered map element?

Caitlin Moran [00:49:04] Absolutely. That piece of detail sounds so intriguing to me that I just want to figure out more, what is going on there. That's pretty cool. And I can't say that a Civil War narrative is anything I've ever read before, but I'm interested. Let's go there.

Anne Bogel [00:49:20] We could keep going, but we're going to stop there. But seriously, listeners, I know you have some spooky New Orleans books for Caitlin. There are some great fantasy series that are based in New Orleans, so bring those to our comment section in whatshouldireadnextpodcast.com.

Caitlin, we covered a lot of ground today. At the end of the day, the books we talked about, The Pelican Brief by John Grisham and November Road by Lou Berney, those are mysteries, we talked about The Road to Roswell by Connie Willis, that's our sci-fi, oh, we talked about Salvage the Bones by Jesmyn Ward, that's our literary, and Out of the Easy by Ruta Sepetys, and The Thread Collectors by Shaunna Edwards and Alyson Richman, those are historical titles. Of those books, what do you think you'll read next?

Caitlin Moran [00:50:08] How did I get so lucky to get more than three picks? Well, you haven't made this easy because I want to say I want to dive into them all and I will be diving into them all. Gosh, I think if I had to say, either The Pelican Brief or The Road to Roswell. So the alien, the little tumbleweed-shaped alien-

Anne Bogel [00:50:38] The little tumbleweed.

Caitlin Moran [00:50:39] It just sounds so fun. And I think that would be such a good gateway to sci-fi for me. And I am just absolutely sold by the 90s New Orleans feel of The Pelican Brief. And I saw that movie a while back when I was on a 90s thriller kick, I don't remember any of it, so I do think it would be probably a good idea for me to go lean into that book now. But honestly, with all of these titles, I imagine they're all going to go in my shopping cart. Let's just put it like that.

Anne Bogel [00:51:10] Well, that sounds great to me. Thanks for talking books with me today.

Caitlin Moran [00:51:13] Thank you so much, Anne. This was such a privilege. I had so much fun.

Anne Bogel [00:51:22] Hey readers, I hope you enjoyed my discussion with Caitlin, and I'd love to hear what you think she should read next. Find Caitlin on Instagram, we've included that link in our show notes, as well as the full list of titles we talked about today. That's at whatshouldireadnextpodcast.com. That's where you can leave your favorite New Orleans record for Caitlin.

We love seeing the books you've read because you learned about them on our show. Be sure to check our show's Instagram account. That's @whatshouldireadnext. When you share a post or story about your recent reads, we would love to see. You can follow me on Instagram too. I'm there @Annebogel.

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Thank you to the people who make the show happen each week. What Should I Read Next? is created by Will Bogel, Holly Wielkoszewski, and Studio D Podcast Productions. Readers, that's it for this episode. Thanks so much for listening. And as Rainer Maria Rilke said, "Ah, how good it is to be among people who are reading." Happy reading, everyone.