A fresh outlook for your reading life

[00:00:00] ANNE: Hey readers, I'm Anne Bogel and this is What Should I Read Next?. Welcome to the show that's dedicated to answering the question that plagues every reader, what should I read next? We don't get bossy on this show. What we will do here is give you the information you need to choose your next read. Every week we'll talk all things books and reading and do a little literary matchmaking with one guest.

If you heard last week's episode, I mentioned that we'd recently sent a very short notice invitation to our patron community to fill a handful of last minute recording slots because of personal demands on my time this winter. Today's guest is another member of our Patreon community, and we are so glad to have him join us!

Thank you so much to all who answered our call. We so appreciate you. And thank you to everyone who has sent, is sending, and we'll send submissions to that form on a daily basis. My team and I love reading every single one. That form is at whatshouldireadnextpodcast.com/guest.

[00:01:15] We are so honored and privileged to get to read about your reading lives. Thank you for sharing them with us. Thank you for listening here. We're so glad to be reading with you.

Now, readers, adjusting your reading life to a new routine is hard. Change is hard even if it's good change. Today's guest would love my suggestions after two big and exciting changes derailed his previous strategy of choosing his next reading.

Caleb Wilson Johnson used to love planning his entire reading gear in advance. As a routine-oriented person, he took great joy in discovering the perfect books for each season, sometimes right down to identifying the perfect bookish fit for the specific month or even day. As a pantser, this blows my mind.

But Caleb recently got married and moved across the state to live with his new husband. Both of these joyful events have really impacted his previous reading routine. And instead of trying to get back to the way things were before, he's curious about exploring what a new path forward could look like.

[00:02:16] Today, Caleb and I are going to think through how he can bring a fresh outlook to planning his upcoming reads while keeping in mind his desire for engaging and plotting books that will hold his attention and keep him reading simply because he cannot wait to pick the book back up and find out what happens next.

Today's episode is all about reading for the season you're in. I'm excited to share it with you. Let's get to it.

Caleb, welcome to the show.

CALEB: Thanks for having me. I'm so excited to be here.

ANNE: Oh, it's my pleasure. It's so good to talk to you and catch up. We are so excited to see that you answered our call to our patrons. I got behind on recording with just a lot of personal stuff this winter, and we asked our Patreon community, as we do sometimes to help us record on short notice. And thank you for answering the call.

CALEB: Oh, I couldn't have responded fast enough.

ANNE: I appreciate that. Caleb, I want to introduce you to our readers. Tell us a little bit about your life, your life in Detroit these days.

[00:03:12] CALEB: So I live in Detroit, Michigan, and just recently moved here, this past December of 2023 after living in Lansing for several years. I got married, not to spoil the plot, but I got married in-

ANNE: You couldn't possibly spoil anything by talking about getting married?

CALEB: Yeah, that's what prompted the move. I've lived in Michigan for a combined total of about ten years now and had been primarily based in Lansing, which is where my job is. And then met a wonderful guy, my husband, Michael, and we were married this past February.

After going, you know, back and forth, trying to decide where we wanted to live, he owns a home here, so we decided it would make the most sense for me to move to Detroit. Not something that was in the books for me, but I am enjoying learning about this place with so much history and culture. It's just something that wasn't expected in my life but it's been wonderful.

ANNE: All right, top Detroit tip, find, spot, what you got?

CALEB: Oh my goodness.

[00:04:24] ANNE: I'm saying this to someone who's only been to the airport. Caleb, this is it so far.

CALEB: Me too actually. Before now, I'd been into the suburbs of Detroit. But as far as the actual city, I just didn't know that much about it. And I will say probably the best thing is a festival called Dally in the Alley. It was where we went for, I think, our second official date, actually.

I think it's a one-day festival and they close down several different blocks in a neighborhood. And there's art and music and all sorts of performances happening in the streets and in the alleyways in between the streets and of course, you know, all of the historic homes in Detroit. And everywhere you turn, it's really a spectacle. I'd never been to anything quite like it.

For instance, we were walking through one little alley going from one area to another, and a marching band just popped up and started playing. I don't remember the song, but I think it was like a Britney Spears song played by a marching band. It was the most bizarre but delightful thing that I've ever experienced.

[00:05:42] Not to mention the fact that I was there, you know, on a date with the person who would eventually become my husband. But yeah, I never heard of this festival at all. It was just such a unique experience.

There's house music, there's rock, there's R&B, there's pop all over these neighborhoods. So many wonderful things.

ANNE: That sounds amazing. Okay, coming this fall, y'all. Everybody has time to plan. Congratulations on your marriage.

CALEB: Thank you so much.

ANNE: And also you mentioned in your submission that this change in routine... Well, you know what, Caleb? I'm not going to put words in your mouth. Tell me about it.

CALEB: I will say that I'm very introverted. I'm a homebody. I was pretty settled, I would say, into my life, which is what made meeting my husband such a surprising and wonderful thing. But I stay home a lot. I'm a reader. I like to cook. I just had my routine very much established.

[00:06:42] I liked my neighborhood, I liked my commute and all of it and I never imagined moving to a new city. I work remotely, so it wasn't a huge deal in that regard. But I do commute to the office one day a week, so I have about an hour and a half drive one way.

So all of a sudden, you know, there's less time that I have for reading. But not only that, just kind of, you know, when your life merges with another person's, as you know, having been married for quite a while yourself, everything just sort of changes.

And it's such a wonderful time of discovery about yourself and who you are as a person but also the person that you're marrying and combining your life with. So for me, just for instance, I would read nonfiction in the morning for about half an hour to get my day started in the quiet, and then in the evening, I would spend several hours, oftentimes staying up way too late. I would make a cocktail, I would read for like, you know, two hours, maybe three. That was my everyday routine.

[00:07:49] Now we have dogs in the house so the mornings aren't quite as silent as I'm used to. But again, all good things, all very joyful things. And then in the evening, we spend time together. We watch TV. My husband is working on his degree in interior design. So there are times when he's working on a fashion project or school project. And so I do have those extended hours of reading. But again, it's just a big change in routine.

Then the commute on Wednesdays, that definitely adds another element of change to the mix. So it's just all been delightful and crazy and wonderful and different. I've been in a bit of a tailspin, but I'm settling in. But my reading life has definitely taken a turn, for sure.

[00:08:45] ANNE: Now, I think a lot of readers will be intrigued by and maybe draw inspiration from the intricate system of planning that you had for your TBR prior to getting married. Like you said in your submission that sometimes you would plan your reading right down to the month and the day, getting very specific, but definitely like being a seasonal reader and wanting to read around the season in which the books take place. We need to hear more about that, Caleb.

CALEB: It's very intricate and a little bit mad depending on who you ask probably. But I am a very seasonal reader. Strong sense of place is something that is really important to me in any book that I read. So my system up until now — and this is just my tendency altogether — I just want the experience to be totally immersive.

So I live here in Michigan. We do have four seasons, despite most people thinking it's just winter all the time. But we do get a nice sampling of all four seasons, and so I kind of want to experience in my actual life what's going on in the book that I'm reading.

[00:09:51] When I am choosing a book or when I add a book to my TBR, usually I'll either purchase the book or sometimes I'll go to the little preview on Google and I'll just read the first few pages. An interesting thing is most of the time, like, the beginning of a paragraph or the beginning of a chapter will say something that is an allusion to the season or the month or the date. Especially with epistolary novels or something where they give you the actual day, I live for those moments because it makes it so easy for me to just slot it right exactly where I want it.

But I think more than that, it's just, you know, if I'm reading a book that is about the holidays and it says Christmas is approaching, I like that feeling being mirrored in my reading life. But yeah, I will plan, oftentimes, my entire TBR based on the month, the year, the date. Sometimes I'll even pay attention to details like, you know, it was a very rainy spring and so I know kind of like where that would fit in my TBR schedule. So it's very intricate. It's a little bit obsessive, but it really enhances the reading experience for me.

[00:11:08] I remember reading the book Saint X. It was like a thriller. And even though that book took place in a tropical setting, it was January. And I remember that because I was thinking, okay, even though it's cold here, but they're at a tropical location, they're escaping to a vacation destination. So I could still read it in January because I could feel like I was escaping out of the cold of Michigan.

ANNE: That's so interesting. You know, I really like a strong sense of place in my work, too. I could not have passed the pop quiz in which you ask me what month Saint X takes place. It was during the school year. I think they're on break from school. But other than that, I got nothing.

CALEB: And I guess, too, I can look back on books that way and remember kind of the setting and the time that I read it and the time that it took place based on that approach.

[00:11:57] ANNE: Okay, that's interesting, and that's going to be helpful to know as we think about what you want in your reading life right now. Okay, so Caleb, you are finding yourself at a time of great change and upheaval in your reading life. I don't know. Does it stress you out to say it like that?

Something that I think about all the time is that change is stressful. It can be good change, it can be unwelcome change, but no matter what, adapting to change is tough in lots of ways. And for readers, of course, it's tough in this specific way when that happens.

CALEB: I would have said that before. I've always been sort of not resistant to change, but because I'm such a routine-oriented person, that probably would have described the way that I felt. But this time, in this particular situation, the way that my now husband and I met, it was just such an unexpected and wonderful thing that happened in my life. It just caused me to really lean into it. It's felt more like an adventure in this situation, but I would have said that for sure before because I've always been such a routine-oriented person.

[00:13:06] ANNE: Like an adventure. I love that. Caleb, I'm gathering that you're not looking to replicate what you had in Lansing in Detroit when it comes to your reading life. The goal is not to carve out three hours a night for a cocktail and many, many chapters of a good book.

CALEB: Right. I think it's more of an invitation for something new and a different approach, which I do think is refreshing and will kind of reinvigorate my reading life.

ANNE: I love the way you put that. Also, we are definitely going to keep in mind how you described reading as being both enjoyment and a centering practice for you.

CALEB: Yes, it's both of those things.

ANNE: Tell me what you enjoy reading. You said you had a pretty good idea of the types of books that work for you.

CALEB: Yes. Like I mentioned before, something with a strong sense of place, especially books where the place almost becomes a character in itself. I love books that are centered around a house or a city or something of that nature. Something that is driven by an exciting plot that kind of moves forward.

[00:14:11] I know there are folks out there who really enjoy character-driven books that are very interior and lots of character development. But I find those books drive me crazy a little bit because I need something to happen. I think I remember, maybe it was you on a podcast episode referencing a book and you said, "If you're expecting something to happen in this book, this is not the book for you." But it was a lot of internal monologue with characters. That is not the book for me. I really need something to happen.

ANNE: You're like, "You're talking to me, Anne."

CALEB: Yeah. Which was great because I knew that that was not for me. But yeah, I would say strong sense of place and plot would be the top two distinguishments for me and what I'm looking for in a book.

ANNE: And yet you'd like to be surprised.

CALEB: I do. Yes, I love a twist, even if it's not like a thriller kind of twist, but just something unexpected. I do enjoy that. I do love a surprise.

[00:15:11] ANNE: Well, I'm excited to hear more. Caleb, are you ready to talk about your books?

CALEB: Yeah, let's do it.

ANNE: You know how this works. You're going to tell me three books you love, one book you don't, and what you've been reading lately, and we'll talk about what books may be right for you in this next chapter of your reading life. How did you choose these for today?

CALEB: I debated how I was going to approach this whether I was going to choose my all-time favorites because I keep a running list of those because, you know, sometimes that will change throughout your life. You might have said you had a book that was your favorite of all time.

A couple of these are all-time favorites for me but I tried to think recently. I went back through my Goodreads to see what I had enjoyed most recently, and I think I would say like in the past two years probably. So this is a more recent list.

ANNE: Okay. Well, I'm excited to hear about what you picked. Caleb, what is the first book you love?

[00:16:12] CALEB: The first book I chose was My Government Means To Kill Me by Rasheed Newson. This is a book that takes place in the 80s, and it primarily centers around the AIDS crisis, the ACT UP movement. The story is told from the perspective of a teenager, young adult. He's sort of coming into his own, and you see the journey that he's on.

It's told from the perspective of this person, so it almost reads like a memoir. I would call this speculative fiction, because while it's based on true events, you know, this person obviously did not exist in real life. But there are footnotes throughout the book that tell you, you know, this might have been the way it happened, or this is the true part of this statement, and this is the historical fact about it.

But then there are other parts that said, Well, this is said to have happened, or this might have been how this took place, or this person might have been here at this time.

[00:17:19] So I really liked the fact that it was based in fact, and it was told from the perspective of this boy, but it was also kind of his own experience of how he was navigating the world during that time and how he became involved in ACT UP and also discovering his own sexuality.

So there was just so many components that spoke to me. From the setting, being in New York City, it was very vivid. I found my own self in that story a little bit, too. I really loved this book. And I read it so fast because I just was so riveted by what was happening in the story.

ANNE: That's a lovely description, and it has me wondering about a couple books you may enjoy later. Caleb, what's the second book you love?

CALEB: My second book is Congratulations, The Best Is Over! by R. Eric Thomas. I really love Eric's writing so much. His first book is still one of my favorites of all time. I was curious how the follow-up would be since this was his second memoir and essays. He's written a couple of, well, one young adult fiction and another book about the life of Maxine Waters, but this book sort of... I don't want to say it picked up where Here for It, his first book, left off, but it had a distinctly different tone.

[00:18:43] I had the privilege of getting to know Eric through a work event that we hosted him for, a book club event, and it was interesting hearing him talk about the writing process while this book was being written and kind of what he was going through in his own life.

But I will say overall Eric has this way of capturing real-life emotion and experience but also being so relatable and humorous and not being afraid to say the things that are hard or difficult but also approaching it with a sense of humor, and you know, that both joy and sadness can coexist in your life at the same time.

I honestly just really love his voice when he writes. It's almost identical to his actual real-life personality, which I find very delightful. I related to the book so much because of some things I was going through in my own life, but it just gave me permission to feel those feelings, to say them out loud, but also to allow joy to exist in my life at the same time.

[00:19:54] So this book is, I think, he describes it as sort of a midlife crisis kind of moment, but his writing is just good about finding you where you are. It's so relatable, it's so funny and so enjoyable, and that's what I love the most about this book.

ANNE: Okay, we have to let everybody know that R. Eric Thomas appeared on What Should I Read Next? back in August 2023. That's Episode 392. It's called Insightful and Entertaining Memoirs, and you can hear Eric talk about his own work while we share a host of recommendations for memoirs that also hit a lot of the same notes that you described, Caleb. Like ones that meet you where you are, that say the hard things but are still relatable and funny. And yeah, we talked a lot about midlife in that.

You mentioned Eric's YA work. Is that a section of the bookstore that you've explored or are interested in exploring?

CALEB: I have, and I've read a couple of YA books, and I will say I really loved Kings of B'more, his YA fiction book for all the reasons that I just described earlier about what I look for in a book — strong sense of place, a fast-moving plot.

[00:21:03] I don't want to be rude or insensitive in saying this, but I do not enjoy books about teenagers or children. I don't know why that is. My Government Means To Kill Me may have been an exception, but he was approaching adulthood.

I was also a children's pastor for a long time, so perhaps I just served my time with all things kids and youth or teenagers. I don't know. But if kids or children are the main characters in a book I don't tend to enjoy it. I did really love Kings of B'more. So maybe I'm open to that. Maybe it's something I should explore more because that definitely took me by surprise. But I have not explored a ton of YA.

ANNE: I like your theory, but perhaps it may take years to restore some equilibrium to your life in that way.

CALEB: I think you're right.

ANNE: Caleb, what is the third book you love?

CALEB: The third book I love, and I will say this one has been on my favorites of all time for many, many years. I don't remember the exact year it was published, but it's Bread and Wine by Shauna Niequist.

[00:22:07] This book checks so many boxes for me. I've reread it, I don't know, countless times, probably five or six times at this point. But it combines a lot of things that I love. Food, I love food writing. Shauna, for a long time, lived in Chicago, so she has a Midwestern sensibility in her life and in her writing. And that sort of defined her, which is a lot of what the book is about.

And if you've read any of her books at all, you know that the Midwest and Chicago was just a big part of her life and her story and something she identified with. But she writes with a very strong sense of place in all of her books, I feel. When I read this book I just moved to Michigan. She lived in Grand Rapids for a time as well. So a lot of the things that she was writing about I was able to experience. Restaurants.

But also, it sort of taught me how to approach cooking. I was living on my own for the first time, and so it was a companion to me. It was an interesting… I don't want to say plot, because it's a memoir. So it's a true story told in essays. But there's just so many things about this book that just checked all the right boxes for me.

[00:23:23] I love the way that Shauna talks about food. I love the way she talks about books and reading, and I just like the way that she describes a setting or a place, or a time in her life. I don't know, for me, it hit all the right marks.

ANNE: Aw, I love that description for you. Tell me more about food writing. I've just noticed that that's come up incidentally a couple of times.

CALEB: Yes, food. I am very, very passionate about food. I don't know that the term "foodie" is still culturally relevant, but I love cooking. I love food experiences. I love trying out new restaurants. It's just something that's a big part of my life.

On a personal note, I will say that it's good to be in that place because I struggled for a long time with disordered eating. So for a long time, food for me was not a pleasure or it wasn't something that I found joy in. It was something I found a lot of shame in.

[00:24:19] That's another reason why this book, Bread and Wine, spoke to me, because she sort of talks about that journey for herself, too. You know, now that I think about it, maybe that was a moment where I stopped apologizing for loving food and eating and the way that it gathers people and the way that food connects people and cultures and all these different things. But I just love reading about food.

Ruth Reichl is one of my favorite authors who writes almost exclusively about food. So yeah, it's a big part of my life. I just love experiences that involve food. It's something that I'm very passionate about and that I find joy in.

ANNE: All right, that's good to know and definitely something that we will keep in mind. Caleb, we've heard about what you love. Now tell us about a book that was not a good fit for you.

CALEB: Yes, and I was so disappointed by this because I thought it was going to hit the mark so much for me. It's the book Devil House by John Darnielle. I first heard about this book from Samantha Irby. She shares the most humorous reviews of things that she's read. And the way she describes them I think it's so funny.

[00:25:28] But many of the books she's recommended have really worked for me. This one, though... when I'm choosing a book, again, with my systems, I will always say, like, if I'm reading a description, and if it checks three boxes for me, then I know I will read it, and I'll give it my time.

I have very, I think, niche interests. One of those is 80s and early 90s nostalgia. Another thing is a haunted house or a manor house or something like that. This book is about a house that had been all of these different things. A convenience store at one point, and there was a gruesome murder that took place at this house.

The cover of the book very much looks like a kind of pulp fiction book from the 80s that you would see in old Stephen King paperback. So many things about this book drew me in.

[00:26:27] The main character in the story moves into the home, to the house where this gruesome murder took place, to investigate it. And I just kept waiting for something to happen, something that was going to move the plot forward.

There were three sections of the book, and not to give away any spoilers here, but it just never really went anywhere. And instead... So I stopped reading it about, I don't know, 75% of the way through, and then I went back to finish it because it was bugging me. And what I realized was the whole thing was just an exploration of truth and how a story is told and the perception. I suppose it's interesting to think about that, but it was not what I was looking for in terms... I felt like the description was very off.

ANNE: Okay. So you love the book you thought it was going to be, and you didn't love the book it was.

CALEB: Yes. And still when I look back on it, like when I see the cover and I read the plot summary, I still I'm like, "Oh, I really want to love this book and I want it to be something different." But it just wasn't.

[00:27:36] And I do love books that kind of, you know, take a broader look, like they're saying something bigger and using the story as more of a vehicle for a larger narrative to come through or a deeper narrative to come through. But yeah, it didn't check any boxes for me, and I'm still sad about it.

ANNE: Caleb, I was really interested in your thoughts on that because there's a lot of John Darnielle's music that I really like. Before he was a novelist, he was and is a lyricist for the Mountain Goats. But you know, there's some reading experiences where because of a relationship you have with the person or the person's work, you feel like, "I have to love this. There is no other option."

CALEB: Sure.

ANNE: And so I've been afraid to pick it up. Okay. But I will at least know what I'm getting into if/when I do.

CALEB: Yes.

ANNE: All right, I'm just going to leave that there for the time being. Caleb, what have you been reading lately?

CALEB: The most recent book that I've read, and I just finished this a couple days ago, is I Have Some Questions for You by Rebecca Makkai. I will say her previous book, The Great Believers, is still probably my very favorite fiction book of all time, my favorite novel. So many things about that book just spoke to me.

[00:28:46] So I was really excited about this book by her. I know it was really anticipated, and I've heard varying opinions on the approach. I really loved it for all the reasons I just talked about earlier—strong sense of place, the plot moved forward. It was very surprising. It had a few twists that I was not expecting. I enjoyed it so much and would highly recommend it. It really reinvigorated my reading life, for sure.

ANNE: I'm really glad to hear that was a winner for you.

CALEB: Another book that I've really enjoyed recently, and this was something I read in the morning during my nonfiction reading time, was 100 Things We've Lost to the Internet by Pamela Paul. I heard an interview with her on NPR. Again, going back to the nostalgia factor, she lists 100 different things that we do not have anymore because of the internet.

I think this, and even say it sometimes, half-joking, half-serious, but sometimes I wish we didn't have cell phones anymore, or sometimes I wish there was no internet, because I feel that there is a connection that's been lost between people. Maybe I'm just a nostalgic person, but I do have vivid memories of using a phone with a long cord or I do find joy in doing a lot of things in an analog manner.

[00:30:10] I just found this book to be interesting. It kind of delved into what we've lost, but also what we've gained by the internet. It was a quick read. The chapters are very short and digestible, which made it perfect for morning reading. But I thought it was very insightful and it just kind of checked that nostalgia box for me as well.

ANNE: That's really interesting. I'm glad you enjoyed it. I remember checking that book out of the library when it came out and I was just talking with my 14-year-old about it this morning because we were wondering about the weather and we both reached for our phones. And one of the things that Pamela Paul says we've lost to the internet is wondering about the weather along with looking out the window and boredom.

Will talks often about really missing the landline, like the kitchen phone in the house. Yeah, I think about that one all the time. I'm not sure I even finished it when I checked it out, but I think about it all the time.

CALEB: And even the Weather Channel.

ANNE: Oh, does she talk about that?

[00:31:05] CALEB: She does, yeah. I guess the Weather Channel maybe came along a little bit later, but there are videos on Instagram of the music from the Weather Channel, and it just evokes such strong emotions for me of the days waiting for the slides on the screen to scroll through to see what the weather was going to be, and even better when the little announcement ticker would roll across the bottom saying if schools were closed or open on snow days. Or when you had to call the school number and wait for the voicemail.

ANNE: Okay, that's what I was specifically thinking of. I remember my brother's baseball games getting canceled and you had to be one of like 300 families to call and hear the recording that would say games are on or games are off. And getting through was a nightmare. My mom would set a timer that would go off every minute so she could call. That I don't miss, but a lot of it. Yeah. Oh gosh, that really is a nostalgia trip.

CALEB: For sure.

ANNE: That fits in with your 80s, 90s nostalgia?

CALEB: Absolutely.

[00:32:02] ANNE: Okay, Caleb, we've talked about and around this for much of our time together, but what would you say you are looking for in your reading life right now?

CALEB: My routine has just completely changed, and I've looked at it as an invitation for my reading life to change. But I think what I'm looking for most is just some strategy, both in terms of getting some reading momentum back.

It's been a very busy season. Planning a wedding, getting married, moving to a new city, all of these things. But just firstly, getting my reading momentum back. I think this might be an opportunity to maybe step out of the hustle of being disappointed if I don't read four books a month, which is what I averaged before. But just being okay with the pace that I'm going in terms of reading and also choosing books that will help me accomplish that goal. So I'm very open. I'm excited to try something new. I just need a fresh outlook.

[00:33:01] So I think to go a little bit further, just managing my own expectations and prioritizing books that will keep the momentum going. And instead of feeling disappointed that I'm not finishing a certain amount of books, just enjoying what I am reading, but also choosing books that will help me feel accomplished. Maybe "accomplished" is the wrong word, because it's not a competition.

ANNE: I'm really glad you had the opportunity to hear yourself, because there's nothing bad in wanting to feel accomplished unless you hear yourself and think, actually, that's not what I want. It might be what you wanted for a really long time.

Caleb, you're talking about a fresh outlook for right now, and I'm interested in how it feels to channel, like, your past self, the one who was very diligent and tactical and specific about planning your to-be-read list around the season you are in and the seasons in which the books take place.

[00:34:07] So not to get too meta on you, but like, Caleb, you are in a season. And I wonder if instead of thinking like, Oh, well, it's April. Oh, it's July. Oh, it's January," I wonder if you could think like, okay, here's a man in this season. And what book might fit this reader, this reader who is you right now? Like what would be right for this moment that you are in? Is there anything there?

CALEB: Yes, that's so insightful, Anne. I feel like I'm in therapy right now. Book therapy. Yes, that's exactly what I am trying to say — realizing that this is a season of my life. One of the things I've been thinking a lot about just personally is being present for today, being grateful for today being, grateful for the moment that I'm in.

I think so many times, not to get too deep here, but you know, in terms of reading or anything else, we can be so focused on getting something accomplished that we just don't enjoy the moment that we're living in, or the book that we're reading, as it were.

[00:35:16] ANNE: Yes, I like that callback to accomplished. Also, I feel like I was asking you to diagnose just that, like, okay, here is a man, this man is in a place, what does that man need? But also, maybe you don't have those answers right now, or maybe you just have the glimmers.

I think that one of the seasons you're in is really a season of discovery. And that's a wonderful thing. This can be a season of discovery in your reading life as well.

CALEB: Yes. Oh, I love that.

ANNE: Yay! Okay, so I can hear that you already have given yourself a great deal of permission to just kind of get the lay of the land for where you are now. New place, practically, metaphorically. And I would just like to affirm, yes, that is a good place for you right now.

Some readers who really like to feel grounded and who want to know what's happening next might even want to give themselves permission to like, Okay, we don't need to think about this for a year, for a year, just kind of see where the tide takes you. You might be really uncomfortable with that, seeing where the tide takes you. You might feel like you want a little more structure.

[00:36:22] Caleb, you talked about how you really wanted to manage your own expectations too. I would really like to encourage you just to be cognizant of the timing. I don't want to tell you what you should or shouldn't do, but I'm playing with the concept of rushing things or encouraging yourself to hurry, like whether or not you even realize you're doing it, of thinking like there's a ticking clock, of thinking you ought to have it figured out by X date. I don't know how you feel about time and getting on with things. What are you thinking now?

CALEB: That sounds just right. I think it all goes back to just enjoying the moment, enjoying the place that I'm in, and being open to what the future holds. I love what you just said about being in a season, but just like taking the whole time component out of the equation. I'm here in this moment, I'm enjoying this book, I'm enjoying this experience, and I'm not going to discount it by being upset that I'm not further along on my TBR or whatever the case may be.

ANNE: Yeah, you're a reader. You'll be a reader. And you can figure out what kind of reader you're going to be now and in the near future on your own timeline.

[00:37:33] CALEB: I think there's a lot to be said about enjoying the place that we're in, but also being excited and curious about the person that we will become.

ANNE: I'm excited and curious for you. And at the same time, you're talking about how you want to prioritize certain kinds of books that will keep the momentum going. I don't want to assume too much, but I'm thinking that books that help you keep the momentum going are the ones that you're excited to read, like the ones that you want to pick up, the ones that make you think like, Oh, you know, like this was time well spent with that book." Does that ring true?

CALEB: Yes, absolutely. I think the best reading experiences that I've had have always been those where I'm thinking about it throughout the day. You know, I'm looking forward to when I can dive back in and see what waits for me within those pages.

[00:38:24] I think I Have Some Questions for You really did that for me most recently. So that is definitely what I'm looking for.

ANNE: I'm really excited about what you can be reading. You have a good idea of what you love in some ways and also I just want to highlight for you that you said in your submission and out loud that you really enjoy being surprised. And perhaps... I mean, you don't have to stick with this, but I'm wondering what it might be like for you to really embrace the idea that this is a season of discovery.

And that may mean just giving yourself an extra grace, a preferential option for the weird stuff. The stuff may be a little further off your beaten path. But by all means, if you're really excited about something that sounds right up your alley and what you've loved in the past, do that. That sounds great. That's the kind of thing we can get excited about as readers. But also, maybe I'll share a title or two that's just kind of like, huh, I don't know. If you're intrigued, you could try it without feeling like it would be a loss to discover that you didn't love it.

CALEB: Oh yeah, that's such a great way of framing it, and I love this approach of surprise. I'm ready for it.

ANNE: I'm happy to hear it. I'm just really excited about where you are in your life and your reading life. You're asking great questions. I'm excited for you. Can I keep saying I'm excited for you? I'm really excited for you.

CALEB: I can feel the excitement and I appreciate it.

[00:39:48] ANNE: Let's talk about what to read next. What do you think?

CALEB: Let's do it.

ANNE: You loved My Government Means To Kill Me by Rasheed Newson, Congratulations, The Best Is Over! by R. Eric Thomas, and Bread and Wine by Shauna Niequist. Although I did notice that you said perhaps The Great Believers by Rebecca Makkai is your favorite fiction of all time.

CALEB: Yes, that still stands.

ANNE: Also, I'm seeing what you snuck in there. I got it noted. That's going into the pot. Not for you was Devil House by John Darnielle. You thought you would love the book you thought it was, and it was not that book.

CALEB: Right.

ANNE: And then lately, Rebecca Makkai's I Have Some Questions For You, which really worked. Also, you pick up a good amount of nonfiction. Like, half your books we've talked about have been nonfiction. So you mentioned Pamela Paul's 100 Things We've Lost to the Internet.

CALEB: Yes.

[00:40:35] ANNE: And now we're going to think about what you might read next. Okay, off the beaten path, surprising, but definitely critically acclaimed so far, have you yet encountered Martyr! by Kaveh Akbar?

CALEB: I haven't. I haven't even heard of that.

ANNE: I think this could be a surprising book for you, but also it has so much in common with books that you have read. If you pull up the cover, you will see right off the bat by the little speech bubble that's present on a series cover that this book has a sense of humor, which is something that you've liked before as an element in books that are really talking about serious, like sometimes hard and heavy things but that are shared in a voice that's funny.

I would really encourage you to just pick this up in the bookstore at the library or just read a sample on the internet. The voice is something that grabs a lot of readers right from the beginning. Like, oh, this is a character I could settle in and spend some time with, spend 300-ish pages with. I think it's a little bit on the shorter side.

[00:41:39] But this is a story by a man who is a poet, he's in AA because of his over-dependence on alcohol, and he's an addict to a whole lot of stuff that he says isn't especially scary on its own. He just does the drugs in combinations that always make him wonder if he's seeing things or living in the real world. But our protagonist is an Iranian-American poet. His name is Cyrus. He's in Indiana, so you've got some Midwestern groundedness and sensibility there.

CALEB: Oh, I like that.

ANNE: I thought you might. So both his parents have already died. His father died of a stroke, and his mother died because she was on an Iranian passenger airline that the U.S. Navy shot down in 1988. And he does circle back and revisit that time. Late 80s reference, but it is there. He's not entirely sure it's not because of the drugs, but he has enough of what he interprets to be a sign from God that it sets him off on a quest.

[00:42:42] So at the very beginning of the book, he has this sign from God, and it's like a lightbulb flickers. It's a real little thing, but it's enough for him to conceive of this big poetry project. He's going to create this thing called the Book of Martyrs. Because of his mother, he's really interested in the concept of martyrdom. And you can decide how you think he sees himself in that context.

But he happens to discover that there is a terminally ill Iranian-American artist who is living out the end of her life in the Brooklyn Museum. And she's just talking to visitors who are coming on pilgrimages to see her. And Cyrus is like, You know what I got to do? I got to go talk to this terminally ill artist.

So it becomes a quest story. They're going to go to Brooklyn. They're gonna go on a journey. They're gonna learn some things along the way. It feels like there's a dark tone to the story and you wonder what he really intends. Does he hint at what his life will be like during and then after he completes this project?

[00:43:41] So serious stuff is happening here, but also the tone throughout, like it's funny. And there are some books that deal in dark and heavy things, but have such a strong sense of humor alongside it.

CALEB: Yes.

ANNE: You hinted at that. Not hinted. You said that with R. Eric Thomas. But this is a fictional version of that. This book does that dark humor really well. I also think that you may enjoy the philosophical exploration in tandem with... this guy that's fun to hang out and spend time with. I think you could get home and be like, what are we doing next, Cyrus? How does that sound to you?

CALEB: That sounds great. I pulled up the cover, and I'm very intrigued, and I love the little illustration that's on the cover. This feels like something that I would enjoy.

ANNE: I'm glad to hear that. Going in a different direction, I'm going to pluck a book from your Goodreads, which we ask readers for on their submissions, if they would like to share. And maybe you've already read this, so you can tell me what you think. But the one that I want to recommend is The Supper of the Lamb: A Culinary Reflection by Robert Farrar Capon. Have you picked this up yet? You put it on your list it looks like in 2022.

[00:44:50] CALEB: I have not picked this up. And funny enough, I first heard about this book from Shauna Niequist, and then I think Ginger mentioned it a little more recently on an episode of the podcast. So it sounds like it would be just right for me, and I've sort of put it on and then taken it off my TBR list based on the mood that I'm in, but I think this might be the time.

ANNE: I really relate to what you're saying about this book, because I've followed Shauna forever. But Caleb, Ginger on our team, is the one who I remember being the one who put it on my radar. And the way she described it made me think, Oh, I have to go read that immediately.

And look, I don't want to be heavy-handed with you, but before we hit record on our conversation that we're having right now, we were talking about Ruth Reichl and how much you love her writing and how I didn't realize that she had a sub stack I should be subscribed to because I feel like I read everything she writes. But no, I've been missing out.

[00:45:43] But you can pick up the edition of The Supper of the Lamb, which was written decades ago, but there's a newer edition. It's in the Modern Library Food Series that has an introduction by Deborah Madison, who I imagine you've encountered as someone who loves food writing.

CALEB: Of course.

ANNE: But also the series editor is Ruth Reichl, and she writes the first introduction in this book and talks about her experience growing up and how she became a cooker of vegetables for reasons even though she didn't feel at home in that role and how she came to cooking and how she felt misunderstood with her love for food.

We both know that she can really write a good food description. It's so fun to hear her reminisce about meals she's enjoyed or write about what she's eating now or what she wants to eat. But she sings the praises of The Supper of the Lamb there in those pages before you even have the opportunity to get started with the book itself. But then the author takes the stage and he gets you started by laying out a recipe for a dinner party in kind of like a wry, gently snarky tone.

[00:46:50] He tells you how to do it right, what's going to happen if you do it wrong. Make sure that the butcher doesn't cut the lamb into the portions themselves or you'll lose half the fun and also half the portions. He has his editorial comments about the recipe for the lamb and he's like, "Well, okay, so I told you how to do that, now let's get started."

This is another one where I think you could pick it up, read the sample, read Ruth Reichl's words if you want, but also see a little bit about this man whose first-person narrative you'll be spending some time with in these pages, and I think you'll find that you really want to.

He's just whimsical and funny and wry, has such a good sense of humor, but is also deeply, relatably talking about food and how we can enjoy it, but also what it means. So whether he's talking about the gift of gathering, or what it means to just really live in the moment and cut your onion. I think he tells you at the beginning, just set aside an hour. You don't have anything else to do. This is important stuff. Let's just do it right.

CALEB: That sounds delightful.

[00:47:51] ANNE: It is! Okay, so there's one review from a reader named Dominika on Goodreads that I just had to share. This is the review in its entirety. "An explosion of joy over the goodness of being." Like, just talking about this book, I don't know if you can hear me smiling. I have a big smile on my face. You could sit down and read this in one sitting because you wouldn't want to get up. But you could also read it in smaller parts and just find yourself looking forward to seeing what Mr. Capon is going to tell you about next.

CALEB: Oh, this sounds exactly like what I needed. That combines so many elements from the food, and then you mentioned the foreword by Ruth Reichl, Shauna Niequist at one point talked about this, I think. Yeah, I think this is right up my alley.

ANNE: Okay, I'm glad to hear it. Look, while we were in Indiana, maybe I should have mentioned Ross Gay, but I think you could really like his bite-sized nonfiction, his two most recent, The Book of Joy, The Book of (More) Joy. If those are not yet on your radar or on yourself, please just think about those. I think you could enjoy those.

CALEB: I have not read them, but I did gift them to a friend recently.

[00:48:53] ANNE: They make excellent gift books. I mean, you know, they're beautiful and bite-sized and... I don't know. What makes them such good gift books? I know they are, but can I articulate it?

CALEB: She was going through a difficult time. I felt like she needed some joy, so I just felt like The Book of Delights was something that she might find useful.

ANNE: I can appreciate that. Okay, also, I'm the one from Louisville, not you, but a local coffee shop does a cameo. Something important happens at a local coffee shop. I thought that was lots of fun. Caleb, when you were talking about My Government Means to Kill Me, it really put me in mind of a YA novel, which is why I asked you, Hey, how do you feel about YA novels? And the answer is, not great, but maybe. So, because you did really love Kings of B'more.

CALEB: I did.

ANNE: We're both aware that this may or may not be a great fit, but I do want you to know about it. This is a favorite of team member Leigh's. She's the one who put it on my radar. I know you all talk books. She said that this book utterly wrecked her, and also, of course, for those reasons, it might be her all-time favorite YA novel.

[00:49:58] Now, that could have changed since she read it in 2020, but she did speak highly of it, and once I read it for myself, I could totally get it. So this is about an Iranian teen whose name is Reza, and he is gay, deeply closeted, newly arrived in New York City, where he makes a friend who's an aspiring fashion designer. And then he meets another friend who's a photographer, and he's out at school and actually proud of it, which is not the place where Reza is when this story begins.

This is one of those stories that we've... I mean, we've been talking about a lot of books that are both about important and hard things, and also, like, have elements of grace and ease, a little bit of humor that lightens the heavy.

So, this is a story that explores the ups and downs of friendship and first love. There's a love triangle here. It's all set against a backdrop of AIDS and activism in 1980s New York. It's one that doesn't shy away from grief and loss of that era, but also really celebrates the community that Reza finds in New York in 19... I think it's mostly 1989. I think this has some of the same elements of stories you enjoy.

CALEB: Yes.

[00:51:10] ANNE: It definitely has that 80s nostalgia. I wanted you to know about it. I'm afraid to ask... I feel like if this is a maybe, then like we're winning, but if it's not, then I at least learned something and we can move on.

CALEB: Yes, I think I would definitely give it a try. I think similar to My Government Means to Kill Me and The Great Believers, period of time, and AIDS activism is something that's really interesting to me. I think kind of hearing stories about the same period of time through the lens of other people's experiences because everyone's viewpoint is so different and perspective is so different. I think this might really work for me. I'd definitely give it a try.

ANNE: I'm glad to hear that. I want to throw in a mystery, then we're going to go back to New York City. I don't know if you've read Simone St. James.

CALEB: I love Simone St. James.

ANNE: Have you read The Sundown Motel?

CALEB: Yes, it checked all the boxes for me, and it was a five-star for me.

[00:52:03] ANNE: Okay, perfect. So I'm glad to hear that was a winner. Readers, if you did not understand the subtext that Caleb and I just exchanged, this takes place in upstate New York at a rundown motel 1982 with those 80s vibes. And it's got a haunted motel that's as much a character as the women at the front of the story. And like, I thought this was one where the pages practically turned themselves. Like, why is there always the lingering scent of cigarette smoke when nobody's been smoking? Like, why do these mysterious things keep happening for reasons that you do get to find out by the end of the book?

CALEB: Yes, it's so moody and evocative, like you really can picture yourself there. Like I found myself cold multiple times when I was reading it and really... oh, it checked all the boxes for me.

ANNE: I'm glad to hear it. Okay, this one is a stretch, but I want you to know about it. Especially, we've been talking about how you are really enjoying watching some adaptations on screen these days. This is Garth Risk Hallberg's City on Fire.

[00:53:03] Caleb, it is a big old book. This thing is like 900 pages. I think this was first introduced to me by our guest Seth Haynes on like Episode 4 that we talked about it in 2016.

CALEB: Wow.

ANNE: Just like very, very early in our history. Oh, it's not one of his favorites. But this is another book of that era, although I believe the action actually... it's set around the very real New York City blackout. Oh gosh, Caleb, you love dates. The blackout that takes place on my birthday in New York City. That had me Googling like, wait, I know this book is built around a historical blackout, but like, is this for real? Did it really happen then? And the answer is yes and absolutely.

So this is 944 pages long. But really, New York City of that era is very much a character in this book that revolves around a punk rock band, a super wealthy and dysfunctional New York City family. You meet bunches of different family members. There's a pyrotechnics expert and his daughter, and then there are invisible threads that become apparent to the reader way before the characters themselves understand that all connect them together.

CALEB: Oh, I love when that happens.

[00:54:16] ANNE: I know. Me too. You get to look down from above and like, I see what's happening. But they are all connected. It comes together in a big way around this historical blackout. This would be an investment. I'm trying to think where this falls on the plotty scale. Slow, careful, but real as far as the plotting is concerned. Intricately plotted would be a book review description of this one. Does that sound like something you might investigate further?

CALEB: It does. In fact, I believe I had added it to my TBR at one point just because of the time period, the setting, being in New York. I really love books set in New York. Period. So I'll definitely add this to my list.

ANNE: Okay, we've been places today. Caleb, of the books we talked about today, and they were Martyr! by Kaveh Akbar, The Supper of the Lamb by Robert Farrar Capon, although we can't forget the introductions by Dipper Madison and Ruth Reichl, Like a Love Story by Abdi Nazemian, we hit on The Sundown Motel by Simone St. James, which you loved, and then we ended with City on Fire by Garth Risk Hallberg. Of those books, what do you think you may read next?

[00:55:29] CALEB: I'm thinking Supper of the Lamb. I might run down to the local bookstore to see if they have it today. I'm very excited about that one.

ANNE: I hope it's the book that you want it to be.

CALEB: Well, I've heard good things from you, from Ruth Reichl, from Shauna Niequist, from Ginger. It sounds like everything's pointing to this book for me.

ANNE: Signs say yes. All right. I love it. Caleb, this has been a pleasure. Thank you so much for talking books with me today.

CALEB: Oh, thanks for having me. It's been a pleasure.

[00:55:59] ANNE: Hey readers, I hope you enjoyed my discussion with Caleb, and I'd love to hear what you think he should read next. Find Caleb on Instagram @CalebJohnsonLive. We've got that link and the full list of titles we talked about today at our show notes page at whatshouldireadnextpodcast.com.

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Thank you to the people who make this show happen. What Should I Read Next? is created each week by Will Bogel, Holly Wielkoszewski, and Studio D Podcast Production. Readers, that's it for this episode. Thanks so much for listening. And as Rainer Maria Rilke said, "Ah, how good it is to be among people who are reading." Happy reading, everyone.