Reading + wintering

[00:00:00] NATALIE NAVA: My idea is to get some very exciting titles from Anne Bogel and create a very exciting queue that's going to keep me interested.

ANNE BOGEL: Hey readers, I'm Anne Bogel and this is What Should I Read Next?. Welcome to the show that's dedicated to answering the question that plagues every reader, what should I read next? We don't get bossy on this show. What we will do here is give you the information you need to choose your next read. Every week we'll talk all things books and reading and do a little literary matchmaking with one guest.

If you have ever visited our guest submission page, you know that we ask every potential What Should I Read Next? guest to tell us one interesting topic they'd like to talk to me about on the show. When our team read Natalie Nava's answer, we all went, Ooh! And what did Natalie want to talk about? Her answer was reading as it relates to wintering, burnout, and recovery.

[00:01:10] Natalie describes herself as a voracious reader. She has been for a long time, but then she sat up one day and realized she had only finished two novels in two years, and she knew something had to change.

After a decade of working in social advocacy, Natalie realized back in 2020 that she was dealing with serious burnout. So she quit her job, she left the Bay Area, she moved to Portland, and she made some changes. Since then, through slow and steady effort, she has learned to regulate her nervous system and reclaim reading as one of her favorite pastimes.

We know many readers might see themselves in Natalie's story, and today we are talking about those techniques that Natalie used to recover from her serious burnout, from the daily wind-down ritual Natalie loves to the specific style of stories she most enjoys.

We cover a lot of ground today. I wrap things up by adding titles to Natalie's winter reading queue, including suggestions for the genres she's excited to explore in the year ahead.

[00:02:10] Readers, we had a schedule change. You will hear me mention our Spring Book Preview in the past tense while recommending a book to Natalie. Please don't worry, you haven't missed anything. We originally planned to air this episode a few weeks from now in February, but rest assured, if you're listening to this immediately after release, there is still time to join our Spring Book Preview. That's taking place on January 25th.

And you can always get the Spring Book Preview PDF in our recorded event video even after that date. It's going to last you through the whole spring. Everything you need to know is on our Spring Book Preview online hub. Visit modernmrsdarcy.com/sbp, that's for Spring Book Preview, to check that out. That's modernmrsdarcy.com/sbp.

All right let's get to it.

[00:02:56] Natalie, welcome to the show.

NATALIE: Hi, Anne. I'm so happy to be here.

ANNE: Oh, it is my pleasure. I can't wait to talk to you about our seasonally appropriate themes that you wrote about in your submission. Our team saw what you wrote and were like, Yes, this needs to happen.

NATALIE: Yay!

ANNE: Tell us a little bit about yourself. We just want to give the reader a glimpse of who you are.

NATALIE: Yes, I am 36 years old and I currently live in Portland, Oregon with my partner and our beloved cat, Daisy. I am originally from the Bay Area, and I moved to Portland three years ago during deep dark Covid. This was part of a series of major life changes that I made after being diagnosed with clinical burnout.

I worked in social advocacy for many years. Part of that was designing and leading environmental campaigns at some nonprofit organizations. I also worked in DEI. And all of these issues are very near and dear to my heart but the pace of my life and the pace that I was working was just very unsustainable. The stress and kind of stress chemicals that were floating on my body was really unsustainable.

[00:04:08] I could talk about burnout all day. The situation is unfortunately not unique to me. I think especially in the pandemic, we've just seen many more cases of burnout. I'm really working right now on building a life that's more sustainable.

So part of that is a lot more than what we think about in terms of traditional self-care. But I have made a lot of lifestyle changes that do really help. So getting back to hobbies that I have enjoyed and giving my brain and my body a chance to recover from stress, and reading has really been a big part of that.

ANNE: I'd love to hear a little about your reading life and what this experience with clinical burnout has meant for that area of your life.

[00:04:55] NATALIE: Yeah, absolutely. So like many of your listeners, I was a voracious reader from a very young age. My kindergarten teacher told my parents that I was a special needs child in the sense that I needed to be kept very, very busy, and reading was a big part of that. So my parents just couldn't keep the books coming fast enough.

You know, I read Baby-Sitters Club, but then I would also raid their shelves and read, you know, Pride and Prejudice and the House of Spirits. I didn't know half the time what was going on as like a 9 or 10-year-old in those books, but those two specifically remained favorite titles of mine as an adult.

And then in the pandemic, I went through just a huge reading slump because of my burnout brain. It was really hard for me to focus, I felt just very anxious and I just really couldn't spend more than a couple minutes reading. There were some self-care books. There's a fair amount of kind of nonfiction that, you know, didn't require a ton of intensive focus or memory or things like that. But I only read one novel, finished one novel in 2021, and I only read one novel in 2022.

[00:06:09] It was sad for me because, again, reading had always been a really big part of my identity, and it had always been a very kind of safe space for me as a kid. I moved around a lot as a kid, and reading was just always that constant. So it felt really unsettling to not have that to be able to turn to when I was really struggling.

So just this year, after a lot of work that I did on nervous system regulation and all the things and really shifting my life, quitting my job, I had been able to pick up reading again. Another big thing was stopping the dreaded social media habits, stopping the evening Instagram scrolling.

My aunt actually loaned me Magpie Murders last Christmas, Christmas of 2022, and she was like, "Just give it a try." And I was able to finish that. That really kind of kickstarted my reading for 2023.

[00:07:12] What's been really helpful is to kind of make reading a ritual. So I usually go to the library once a week to pick up whatever my holds are ready, and then I read for 30 minutes in the evening. And that's time that previously I would have just spent scrolling Instagram or watching like Love on the Spectrum for the 10th time. So that has just been a really nice way to keep it consistent.

ANNE: For those listeners who really resonate with what you're saying about scrolling and how it maybe wasn't the best for you, do you have any words of wisdom or practical tips?

NATALIE: Oh my gosh, yeah. I think, you know, giving yourself grace and being gentle with yourself. I think for a lot of people who are approaching burnout or experiencing burnout, relaxing is not so easy when you're really flooded with stress hormones and when you've just got a million tabs open in your brain.

[00:08:13] I think a lot of the advice online is like, just relax and just take a bath. And do this, and it's not always so easy. But I think kind of over the long term, I've just understood now after this experience why having hobbies is so important, because it's just like having time away from where you sort of put the work part of your brain on the shelf and kind of unplug.

I don't know about the neurochemistry behind reading. I don't know if you know, and I think it's fascinating, but there's just something about it that feels both engaging and soothing in a way that I really haven't found a lot of other hobbies in my life do.

ANNE: I'm not going to get into the science, which is real. It does exist. But personally, what I love about reading is that it's not easy rest. Like it does demand something of you. And now I'm thinking of our episode in, I think, late 2022 with Laura Vanderkam, where she talks about this like it does take effort, but it compels me to focus on the words on the page or on fictional characters troubles that feel real, you know? Like it demands something of you. And in doing so, it takes you out of your life in a way that can often be really welcome.

[00:09:30] NATALIE: Yes, it's like it's turning on a part of my brain and also turning off a part of my brain. Like, I don't have to make decisions. I don't have to keep these characters safe, or it's not on me to have them complete their journey. And yet it's enriching for me and I'm learning and I'm... it's just fascinating. I would love to learn more again about just what's going on in the brain versus it really is such a different experience than like watching TV or just passively consuming.

ANNE: Would you say more about what that 30-minute-a-day ritual has meant to you, whether that's to you and your whole person, or specifically what it's meant to you as a reader?

NATALIE: Yeah. One of the things that was really tough for me with my burnout and, you know, really important precursor was I'm just a terrible sleeper. I've always been. Anyone who knows me well knows that I have like ten things that I need to do to be half asleep.

[00:10:25] I've got the white noise machine. I've got the sleep mask. I've got the weighted blanket. But what was missing was a way to wind down because, again, the phone, not so good. We all know this. We all know this. But it's so easy to just keep scrolling.

So reading for 30 minutes at night with the glow of my salt lamp in my cozy pajamas just allows my body to know that it's time for bed. I just didn't realize that that was an important thing I was missing from my routine. And I just look forward to it so much now. Just reading one chapter or two chapters just feels really good. It feels really good to my body. And again, it's that kind of like really nice, cozy space where I'm engaged, but I'm also relaxing. And it just makes that transition to going to sleep super important. Sleep is so important. We all know this.

ANNE: Oh, it's so important. Natalie, you mentioned that concept of wintering is one that's been on your mind a lot lately.

[00:11:26] NATALIE: Yes. So I think reading is really great both for literal and metaphorical wintering. Now that I live in Portland, Oregon, coming from California, this is the first time in my life that I have really been mindful of the seasons and sort of learned to live in tune with the seasons.

In the summertime here, it stays light until 10:00 at night. So that's the time, you know, you got with your friends, you go to bars, you go to the park. You're just on. And in the wintertime it gets dark here. I mean, gosh, feels like around 4:00 and-

ANNE: That's too early.

NATALIE: It's very early. So I sing in a women's choir here in Portland. And I promise this relates because the theme of our winter concert this year is inner gardens. Our artistic director said that Rainer Maria Rilke says that winter is the time to cultivate your inner gardens.

[00:12:28] And I feel that so much living in Portland. There is an energetic shift that happens here in the wintertime and literal shift, right? I mean, people are spending much more time at home, you know, doing puzzles and cozying up with their cat. It really is the time to be cultivating all those wonderful indoor hobbies of which reading is a big one. I think that's a big way of how we get through the winter here, is it's that turning inward and making time to tackle your reading list.

And then there's a metaphorical winter, which is just when you're going through a hard time in your life and your capacity is lower. It's just so important to give yourself grace, even when it doesn't make sense, during the times of life when you just don't have it, when you just are exhausted.

So many of us, I think, just really still are exhausted after what we've all lived through the last few years. It's just like a collective PTSD, and our brains and our bodies are just really tired. So I just hope that folks are really tuning into themselves and turning to their libraries at home and just letting themselves read when they just need that time and that respite.

[00:13:55] ANNE: Natalie, I know you've thought a lot about how wintering does relate to burnout and recovery. Do you have more you'd like to add about that?

NATALIE: I've had many iterations and seasons and flavors of burnout recovery in the last few years. I spent last winter, I will be totally honest, doing basically nothing. Like I sat on my couch, I wasn't reading, I was watching TV and looking at my phone. I thought that's what I needed at the time was just to do nothing and kind of give up, and it made me feel a lot worse.

So there can kind of be this fine line between, you know, cozy hibernating, turning inward, and completely disengaging from the world. And the latter is not the goal, right? Because we need people. We need things to look forward to. We need hobbies. We need to get out of the house and put pants on sometimes. Listen, it's real. Each of us are our own experts on that, right? It's like platitude, platitude. I know what it's like to really just winter to the point where life doesn't feel very worth living. And that's not the goal.

[00:15:11] ANNE: Thank you for that. Natalie, do you have ideas for how you may continue to incorporate reading specifically in your, I don't know, your whole system maintenance? That makes you sound like a machine, and, you know I don't mean it like that, but really in your ongoing burnout recovery. And just, you know, you've learned how to take care of yourself. How does reading factor into that or how might it in the future?

NATALIE: My idea is to get some very exciting titles from Anne Bogel and create a very exciting cue that's going to keep me interested. Honestly, that's why I'm here. Like I said, I read 15 fiction books this year and I feel very proud of. I would love to get that number to 30 next year. And I know, you know, it's not a numbers game, right? It's not a to-do list. It's not like the self-improvement Olympics over here, but I just know how much it has enhanced my life and my relationships and my sleep and all the things. And I think really building an exciting queue of titles for next year is going to keep that ritual up for me.

[00:16:18] ANNE: That's something you want to cultivate in your garden.

NATALIE: Yes.

ANNE: I love it. Okay, let's talk about your books then. Natalie, you know how this works. You're going to tell me three books you love, one book you don't, and what you've been reading lately, and we'll see what we can put in your queue. Natalie, how did you choose these?

NATALIE: I chose these books because they feel like three different shades of my preferred genre, which I'm going to call trauma and troubles.

ANNE: Tell me more.

NATALIE: So I have a pretty high tolerance for a character with a strong or traumatic backstory. And I think that really mirrors my real life. I'm an only child, and I've just always been fascinated with trying to understand people better. I love learning about what makes people tick. I love learning about what makes people who they are and like what in your childhood makes you act this way present day. So I just love books that explain that about characters. So I think these three books are pretty indicative of my tastes.

[00:17:27] ANNE: Okay. That's a wonderful approach. We'll talk more about what you're looking for next, but I'm glad you said that about trauma and troubles.

NATALIE: Yes.

ANNE: Okay. Natalie, what's book one, the first book you love?

NATALIE: Book one that I chose is A Little Life by Hanya Yanagihara. This is my favorite novel, and it is a big book with a big reputation. So most people who have read this book will tell you that it's the most depressing book of all time, and they're not wrong.

A Little Life follows four male friends from college into adulthood, and the main character, Jude, has a pretty traumatic backstory, which is revealed slowly throughout the novel. As I mentioned, I love a strong back story. I love a book that answers the question about why a character is the way that they are.

[00:18:19] But I feel like A Little Life doesn't get enough credit for just how beautifully it's written, and how much care, I think, is shown both to the main character and to the reader. Because, again, this traumatic backstory is revealed slowly over time. So as a reader, you kind of have time to process this story. It's not just thrown at you for you to be like, oh my God, you know? Some people might say it's gratuitous, but I just loved this technique of the slow reveal.

ANNE: You know, we've had several guests share this as a love on the podcast, and every time someone describes it and says what it means to them, I think, "I'm actually going to read it." And Natalie, I still have not read this book.

NATALIE: It is a long one, Anne. I devoured this book. I needed something to sink into when Game of Thrones ended and someone was like, how about this book? And I just devoured it. But it's one of those books that I can absolutely see why people would just read this and think, depressing, full stop.

[00:19:28] This book isn't for everyone. But if you are like me and you do have that high tolerance for some tough stuff interspersed with a lot of beautiful love story, beautiful writing, then I would love for you to read this just because I'd love to know what you thought about it.

ANNE: It would be fun to talk about. Well, I'm glad this big book lived up to its big reputation for you.

NATALIE: Absolutely.

ANNE: Natalie, what is the next book you love?

NATALIE: So the second book I love is Transcendent Kingdom by Yaa Gyasi. This book is about Gifty, who is a Ghanaian neuroscience PhD candidate at Stanford, and her family. So Gifty's mother is very depressed and she comes to live with her.

There is not a ton of plot in this novel. A lot of the action happens in the past, and so throughout the book, Gifty is reflecting on the suffering in her family, and it's led her to reflect on all kinds of themes from her life. So religion and culture and science and addiction.

[00:20:37] I love a book that is heavy on introspection and character reflection. That is A-okay with me. I sometimes prefer that to a super plot-driven book. I just love the way that this book connects a lot of seemingly disparate themes and brings them together in a way that I think a lot of our brains do. It's almost like a book that's a mind map of a character.

ANNE: Ooh, I like that description.

NATALIE: Yay! Anne Bogel-approved.

ANNE: You know, I'm just thinking, I feel like it's about time for another Yaa Gyasi book. I'm ready.

NATALIE: Yes. Homegoing is one of my all-time favorites. I was a latecomer to Transcendent Kingdom. I only read it a few months ago, and I read it in about two sittings. It's very easy to get through. I just can't say enough good things about this book.

[00:21:35] ANNE: Well, I'm glad this one was one you really connected with. Natalie, what did you choose to complete your favorites list?

NATALIE: The third book that I love is Severance by Ling Ma. This is a millennial apocalyptic novel where a virus from China quickly spreads around the world. Sound familiar? Ling Ma predicted the pandemic, but in this instance, the infected become like zombies who get locked into these familiar patterns before they die. So, like folding a sweater or scrolling through their phone or just these rope patterns that they did in their life.

The main character is Candace, who is Chinese-American and works at a publishing company in New York City. And as the virus is spreading around her, Candace's company is paying her to continue to go work into the office, even as New York City is emptying out and becoming increasingly just desolate and uninhabitable.

[00:22:40] The book alternates between Candace's past and her present day. So we learn about her childhood. We learn about the experience of her parents immigrating to the States, and how they had to adapt to life in this new country.

And then in the present day, Candace has joined up with a band of, you know, the last few remaining survivors on Earth in this cult-like group, and she has a secret that she's not sure how she's going to reveal to the folks in her group.

I love how relatable this book is. A few of my friends and I read it together just before the pandemic hit, and then in 2020, we were like, Oh my God. I thought this book was a very smart commentary on a lot of parts of our society, and just how so many of us actually feel very numb in our routines, right? Zombies are a perfect metaphor for this. I really love a good metaphor in a world that feels similar to our own, with some fantastical elements. I really like that.

[00:23:43] But ultimately, this book was about identity and belonging and how Candace is viewing this virus and this apocalyptic situation she finds herself in through her past and her experience and never really feeling like she fit in anywhere and really questioning what home means and what belonging means.

ANNE: Okay, that sounds like a good fit for you. And yes, the timing of this book release, it came out in May 2019, which still blows my mind.

NATALIE: Yes. Like what?

ANNE: Exactly. So, readers, you know what to do depending on how you feel about a pandemic read at this point in your life. Now, Natalie, tell me about a book that was not a good fit for you.

NATALIE: A book that was not a good fit for me was Normal People by Sally Rooney. I know I'm in the minority in this one, but this is a one-star for me.

[00:24:43] ANNE: It's never just you. Tell us what it was. Was it like a wrong timing, mismatch in tone, just not to your taste?

NATALIE: Not to my taste. I found this book just incredibly dull, if I may be so blunt. I found the characters really flat. I found the dialog just very pretentious and hollow. And this will they, won't they, I was like, I don't care. So from the title I think it makes sense why this wouldn't be the book for me, right? It's just about normal people. Like there's no traumatic backstory, there's no-

ANNE: But trauma and troubles. It's got that in spades.

NATALIE: Yes, I guess just not in the flavor that I like. I'm like, you did your trauma wrong, sorry. I just didn't care about these characters. It's one of those books where I really need someone to help me understand why it's good. Really this is one of the worst books I've ever read.

[00:25:40] ANNE: Interesting. Okay. So I'm really pushing you to like to help you think about this and articulate. So one, it has no quotation marks. Did you even notice that? Do you have big thoughts about that?

NATALIE: I don't care about that. I'm okay with an interesting grammatical style or lack thereof. That's fine. I think I just... the conversations the characters are having, I'm like, this isn't how people talk. Like, why do I care about these characters? It needed to feel more real. And I think this, again, like the will they, won't they plot, I think is just very overdone. There wasn't anything about it that felt like this story is one worth telling and reading.

ANNE: Do you feel like relatability matters to you when you're reading about characters, or do you want them to feel realistic or both?

NATALIE: Relatable.

ANNE: A lot of readers struggle when they're reading about a character, and they're like, I just really can't understand why someone would make these decisions. Either I don't think this is true to life or I just don't get it and don't don't want to persist and try to enter that world in that mindset.

[00:26:48] NATALIE: Yes, relatability matters. I think just the problems they were having, like it just doesn't apply to me, so I don't care. I did finish it. And I even watched the Hulu series, my friend and I hate watching and we just laughed so much. It was great. I'm sorry.

ANNE: I'm glad you could get that great experience from your one-star book.

NATALIE: Yes.

ANNE: You're not alone. I just want to clarify as we move forward, I think you said that you don't need a lot of action in a book. Because Normal People is very interior, but that was far from the only thing holding you back from really connecting with this one. Is that right?

NATALIE: On paper, it seemed like this would be the perfect book for me, but it's one of those where it's like... It's like when you meet your evil doppelganger and you're like, wow, this person is exactly like me and I hate them. That's Normal People for me.

ANNE: Duly noted.

NATALIE: Like it should be so right but it's so wrong.

[00:27:45] ANNE: That's helpful. That's helpful. Thank you. Natalie, what have you been reading lately?

NATALIE: Just last week, I picked up Babel by R.F. Kuang. I read Yellowface by R.F. Kuang earlier this year. I didn't even know the Babel existed until I heard about it on your podcast and someone that I met in real life told me they were reading it. And I was like, Wait, what? I didn't even know it existed. I was pretty intimidated, I'll be honest, because when I read the premise, I was like, I don't even understand what this means.

ANNE: You were missing how like words would fuel an empire that wasn't clear to you?

NATALIE: I was just like, these themes sound very interesting, and I understand the themes of empire and like using language, but I was like, how the hell is this going to be a book? I don't know, just something about it just sounded complicated. And with the girth of the book and this very heady premise, I was thinking, okay, this might be actually like a very big challenge to get through this book.

[00:28:44] So I kind of was like, oh, I don't know. And then I was at this beautiful bookstore on Bainbridge Island Thanksgiving weekend, I was there with my mom, my partner, and I was like, "Christmas gifts, Mom, thank you." So she bought it for me.

I am 150 pages in and I'm actually really surprised how readable it is. I'm loving it. I'm loving Babel. I like this magical element with the silver bars. Again, don't totally understand how that works. Maybe they'll explain it more, but I like this magical element within a recognizable world. And again, it really touches on a lot of the themes, you know, identity, belonging, otherness, traumatic backstories. It feels similar to a lot of the books that I love. So thank you, R.F. Kuang.

ANNE: Natalie, what are you looking for in your beading life right now? So we are going to add some books to your list that you can get excited about for the year to come. Help me understand what you'd be happy to put on it.

[00:29:47] NATALIE: Yes, I would really love to dabble in some genres that I don't normally read. So like mystery, thriller, sci-fi. I tend to stick to just, you know, straight trouble and trauma novels. I think I'm kind of maybe missing out on or I just am not aware of a lot of other genres or other types of books that I might really enjoy.

Again, love a strong character backstory, love introspection, and trauma. I like magical or fantastical elements in a recognizable world. I'm not as big on, you know, really straight sci-fi and big world-building, with the exception of Harry Potter. Loved Harry Potter, and I loved Ender's Game. But in general, as an adult, I haven't found as many books that are just, you know, straight fantasy that have really gripped me. And like I said, I would love to increase the number of books that I read in 2024 from 15 to 30.

[00:30:49] ANNE: That sounds like fun. You know, I misunderstood in your submission. I thought that you were interested in true fantasy or sci-fi books that are to your liking, but we're looking for more like starter titles. Let's revisit your books.

So You Loved A Little Life by Hanya Yanagihara, Transcendent Kingdom by Yaa Gyasi and Severance by Ling Ma. Normal People by Sally Rooney was not for you. And recently you felt a real kinship with Babel by R.F. Kuang. And it got you thinking that some starter books that would help you explore like fantasy, sci-fi, mystery could be really promising for you maybe in your near future reading life.

And we're also keeping an eye out for books that really grapple with themes of identity and belonging, otherness. You love your trauma and troubles genre. You're here for traumatic backstories. And you don't mind the books are quiet, but we talked about relatability and feeling like you have realistic characters. Even if there's something completely magical about a world, you want to feel like a character's actions make sense and you can connect with them. Am I capturing what you're looking for?

[00:32:04] NATALIE: Yes. All that is dead on.

ANNE: Natalie, let's start closer to home. Like closer to realistic fiction and branch out from there. A title that I think might be up your alley is Olga Dies Dreaming by Xochitl Gonzalez. Is this a book you know? I feel like it was everywhere in early 2022 when it first came out.

NATALIE: I have heard of it, have not read it. So this is perfect.

ANNE: Ooh, that makes me happy. Let me tell you about it. So first of all, the author describes herself as a native Brooklynite of Puerto Rican and Mexican descent, and she's drawing on that identity to inform her protagonist. Her protagonist, but the character we get to know best is Olga. Olga Acevedo.

She's also a native Brooklynite. She's 39, and at this point in time, she finds herself working as a wedding planner to the uber-rich. But she's the daughter of Puerto Rican activists. She does have that traumatic backstory.

[00:33:05] Her mother abandoned her and her brother when they were quite young because she wanted to go devote herself full-time to the revolution. Her kids have always felt abandoned and that's so present in how they're living their life now. Like both Olga and Prieto, her, I want to say, older brother, he works as a representative for the Brooklyn neighborhood where they grew up.

They are desperate to prove themselves to their mother. Like he especially has strong people-pleasing qualities, and Olga has like this deep abandonment issue from her mother like literally walking out on the family when they were very young. And at the same time, as much as they want to make mom happy, they also have this inclination to just take her ideals and throw them back in her face.

Her brother is living as a claustic queer man because he thinks his mother might not approve so no one can know. So now both these kids, Olga and Prieto, are now adults, and we get to see how they have made decisions and shaped their lives in response to that early abandonment.

[00:34:08] Olga's job is really juicy. The story starts with this scene where she's at a, I don't know, seven-figure wedding, perhaps. And the story has all these juicy details from her job as a wedding planner to these clients who have endless, endless funds to spend on this big day that seems to be about everything but love and commitment. It's all about who you're impressing and what it means. There's some great stories in there.

Something that I really enjoyed finding out was that the author worked as a wedding planner to the wealthy. Maybe not to this like almost caricature example. But she wrote a piece, I think, for The Atlantic, about her time working as a wedding planner. And I highly recommend you read that before, during, or after reading this book. It is also fascinating. But there's lots of really great stories.

[00:35:02] But Olga is finding herself at a place in her life where she's saying, what am I doing? And she's conscious that her mother, who's like kind of inserting herself back on the scene after a long absence because she wants things from her children, she's very conscious that her early experience with her mother and her ongoing relationship with her is really shaping her life in ways that she does not feel good about.

She's involved in a relationship with the now divorced father of a... I don't believe the word bridezilla is used in the book, but that would be fair. There's no love there. But she finds herself with him a lot. She's like, what am I doing? She meets somebody that makes her question like, could I find love and happiness in my future?

This book is also very much about the past and present of Puerto Rico and the history, but also what's happening on the island right now. And that comes up in really dramatic fashion in the book, because Hurricanes Irma and Maria make landfall during the course of the novel, and they factor significantly into the plots.

[00:36:07] And the thing that their revolutionary mother is working for is Puerto Rican liberation. I think there's so much here that you would enjoy. I found Olga, and I think you would find her a character where you go, Yes. I see your dilemma. Yes, I see what you're wrestling with. Oh, Oh, I want good things for you. I want good things for you. Like, please, like I'm cheering for you. Let's get it together.

Something else I think you'll like in this novel that is really about breaking free from past hurts is that throughout the book you see like pieces snap into place for Pieto and Olga as they understand how they've been holding themselves back in ways that completely make sense because of their past. But that doesn't mean that it's not difficult for people, not just characters in novels, to figure out how to move forward. But right at the end, Olga snaps a few more pieces into place in a really satisfying way. I think it may be for you. How does that sound?

NATALIE: It sounds like my perfect match. You are a witch, Anne.

[00:37:09] ANNE: I'm not sad to hear that. And I have to tell you, Natalie, that Gonzalez has a new book coming out March 5th. We absolutely talked about it in our Spring Book Preview for Modern Mrs. Darcy and What Should I Read Next?. And this is the tale of two female artists set in the worlds of fine art.

And we're not going to get into the details, but what I want you to know is, since you love books that are realistic, they're set in our world, but they might just have one thing that's different, this book is just like that. So we have an artist who dies in a terrible accident, but then continues to be a character, continues to narrate from beyond the grave, continues to involve herself in the action. And I think you're going to love it. But read Olga first.

NATALIE: Yes, I just got a twofer. That sounds also amazing.

ANNE: I'm so glad it does. Now we are stepping a little bit more into magical, fantasy, sci fi territory, if that's all right with you. Are you ready?

NATALIE: I'm ready.

[00:38:13] ANNE: So this book is coming out right about now, February 13th. It's called The Book of Doors. This is a debut from Gareth Brown. It's a science fiction fantasy mystery. You said you were looking for other genres. Look, we're just going to roll them together.

NATALIE: Yes.

ANNE: And it's set in a world just like ours, that which is mostly New York City. And we have key scenes unfolding at the bar, at the Library Hotel, and Washington Square Park and a fictional Upper East Side bookstore that may very well be based on a real one, but I haven't yet figured out what that bookstore is.

But this is our world, it follows our rules, except for the existence of a series of books that collectors throughout the world possess and want to hunt down, typically for terrible ends. Because these books grant their owners the ability to do things like experience joy, or inflict pain, or move at great speed, or disappear into shadows that the book itself creates.

[00:39:19] So in this book, we have a bookstore employee named Cassie, and she has a favorite customer. He's older. He comes to the bookstore every day. And when he dies, he leaves her in possession of The Book of Doors. When you open the book, you find out that it says any door is every door, and slowly she figures out what that means.

And what that means is that she can use the book to use any door as a portal to travel throughout space or time. She just has to picture the destination in her mind's eye. So at first, she uses it to visit her late grandfather that she misses so much, and go back to her favorite vacation destinations from her last European adventure.

But she quickly discovers that this isn't just like, you know, a party trick or a fun way to take an inexpensive vacation. There are powerful people who want this book, and they want to use it for their own evil ends. And then we're off and it becomes just like a really fast-paced adventure. She tries to figure out what is happening. What do the books mean? Who can she trust and how she got to get out of this okay? How does that sound?

[00:40:29] NATALIE: Well, I want to know if this character has some trauma.

ANNE: Well, she wants to reconnect with her grandfather because she was raised by him because both her parents died when she was little.

NATALIE: Great. Check. We got it.

ANNE: Well, this is present day. She has a bunch of terrible people coming to hunt her down. You know, I think we're going to have to put this pretty heavily in the parents' basket. But I will say for you, Natalie, and also for listeners who are trying to get a feel for this book, I think this is a really good fit for fans of The Invisible Life of Addie LaRue, and also a book like The Cartographers, where it's set in our world, but also not.

NATALIE: Yes, I am very curious what I will think of this. I'm absolutely going to read it.

ANNE: I'm curious too. Because this one is less introspective and a little more action-oriented than some of the books that you've loved.

NATALIE: Yes. So we'll see.

[00:41:29] ANNE: But as you're looking, where do I want to branch out in the future? I think this could be a really good data point to inform your decisions for the future.

NATALIE: That's great.

ANNE: Now I want to go true fantasy with a caveat.

NATALIE: Dun dun dun.

ANNE: I know, okay. Because what fantasy and also science fiction can do so well is explore those questions of identity and belonging and otherness in a way that can slip in past our defenses, you know, because there's so much that's so different. We can suspend our disbelief about both the things, like are there really magical sea pirates? But also about maybe some preconceived notions we have about how our world works and how relationships work and all those expectations.

And I'm thinking of a book that you might not have picked up and said, this is calling my name, probably because of the illustrated sea monster on the cover but I think it grapples with the topics you love reading about so well.

[00:42:38] I'm thinking of The Adventures of Amina al-Sirafi by Shannon Chakraborty, who also wrote The City of Brass trilogy, which I think you might really enjoy, especially after loving Babel. I don't suppose you've read this.

NATALIE: I have never even heard of this author or any of these books.

ANNE: Okay, I'm not sad about it. So this is the first book in a planned trilogy that just came out, I think in February of 2023. And this is the story of a renegade pirate captain who is really huffy about getting pulled back into the action because she feels like she has paid her dues. She has worked hard. She has amassed enough riches to last her into her retirement.

At this point, she's a middle-aged mother. She's done with all that. She got her kicks when she was young. She just wants to relax. But then a former crewmate's daughter is kidnapped and she's persuaded through means that are not entirely fair. But she reluctantly decides, okay, I will do this one last job and I will get the gang back together again and my long-retired crew will all go try to find this girl, which does incorporate a lot of real-life history.

[00:43:53] So this is historical fantasy. It takes place in the 12th century on the seas of the Indian Ocean, and there's so much period detail. And also there are a lot of definitely magical adventures. So the book has a really heartwarming dedication, detailed author's note in acknowledgments. And also the way that she writes about those things that you enjoy reading about, and did you like seeing explored in deep nuance on the page are done so well. And I want to add gender to the list of things that she really beautifully tackles in this book.

The protagonist here, Amina, is so winning. My hope for you when you finish this book, my hope for you when you're halfway through this book is that you will just kind of put your hands over your chest and like smile fondly and be like, Oh, Amina, I love you. I can't wait to see what you do next. This is a stretch though. How does that sound to you?

NATALIE: It sounds fascinating. It does sound like a stretch, but I can see if I like this book that this is going to open up a whole new world of genres. And especially you said this is part of a trilogy and then the author has another trilogy?

[00:45:03] ANNE: Yes. Chakraborty wrote that trilogy that begins with The City of Brass, which is fantastic. It's a very different tone from this one, which is just a more spirited, adventurous tale with an altogether different kind of protagonist and cast. But this is the first book in a planned trilogy. So you can read this now knowing there's more on the way, if you really enjoy it and want to see what I mean, it gets up to you next.

NATALIE: Yes, that's part of the appeal, honestly, is if I enjoy this title, there's already built-in a few more from this author, so that's very cool. It sounds very fascinating.

ANNE: I'm happy to hear it. Okay, Natalie, of the books we talked about, they were Olga Dies Dreaming by Xóchitl González, The Book of Doors by Gareth Brown, and The Adventures of Amina al-Sirafi by Shannon Chakraborty. Of those books, what do you think you'll pick up next?

[00:46:00] NATALIE: I actually think the pirate lady. I think I'm going to go for that.

ANNE: I love it. I can't wait to hear what you think.

NATALIE: Thank you so much, Anne.

ANNE: Oh, this has been a pleasure, Natalie. Thank you so much for talking books with me.

NATALIE: Absolutely. I had so much fun.

[00:46:18] ANNE: Hey, readers, I hope you enjoyed my discussion with Natalie and I'd love to hear what you think she should read next. You can connect with Natalie on Goodreads. We've included that link in our show notes page, where you'll also find, as always, the full list of titles we talked about in today's episode. Find those at whatshouldireadnextpodcast.com.

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Thanks to the people who make this show happen. What Should I Read Next? is created each week by Will Bogel, Holly Wielkoszewski, and Studio D Podcast Production. Readers, that's it for this episode. Thanks so much for listening. And as Rainer Maria Rilke said, "Ah, how good it is to be among people who are reading." Happy reading, everyone.