Reading for escape and adventure

ELLEN HARRY: Also, Anne, I was trying to hack the system a little bit and I chose three books I thought that I had never heard anybody talk about on your podcast before. And I thought maybe that might get me selected.

ANNE BOGEL: Hey readers, I'm Anne Bogel and this is What Should I Read Next?. Welcome to the show that's dedicated to answering the question that plagues every reader, what should I read next? We don't get bossy on this show. What we will do here is give you the information you need to choose your next read. Every week we'll talk all things books and reading and do a little literary matchmaking with one guest.

Readers, first, it might not feel like the holidays are just around the corner, but our gifting episode is happening so soon. This has become an annual tradition around the year, but every year we do it just a little bit differently.

[00:01:06] This year we are inviting you to let our team help you find the right book for the readers in your life. To get in on this action and get personalized custom recommendations just for you and your giftees, email [email protected] with the subject line "gift help". Tell us who are you shopping for, what do they like, what do they dislike, what do you have a hunch they may enjoy this season.

Let us help you. Email [email protected] with the subject line "gift help" or ask us directly in your own voice by calling 502-627-0663 and leave us a voicemail.

If you'd like, tell us three books they love, one book they don't and what they've been reading lately or just give us a clue as to what they may enjoy or what you are looking for. Again, [email protected], subject line "gift help". We can't wait to hear what you are looking for this season.

[00:02:09] I also want you to know that my eBook, Don't Overthink It, has been on sale lately. I hope, fingers crossed, that as you're listening, it's still on sale. Go check it out. It's been on sale across all eBook platforms. I hope this continues through the end of the month. But grab your copy wherever you buy your eBooks.

Now for today's episode.

Readers, today’s guest is looking for immersive, transportive reading experiences that she can get lost in. Ellen Harry loves to travel, and in between trips, she’s just as keen to explore new-to-her stories and perspectives in the pages of her latest read.

Today, Ellen and I chat about the stories that deliver the sense of escape and adventure she loves most.

Ellen lives in North Carolina with her girlfriend and her beloved pets. She’s enjoyed some positive changes in her reading life lately, and she credits this podcast for igniting her passion for tracking her reading. Today we get into what’s going right in her reading life these days, and of course, I’ll leave Ellen with suggestions for riveting reads to feed her adventurous spirit. Let's get to it!

Ellen, welcome to the show.

ELLEN: Hi, Anne, thank you so much for having me. I'm so excited to be here.

ANNE: Oh, the pleasure is mine. Now, this is not the first time we have connected. You reminded me, with photo evidence, that we met at Bookmarks NC all the way back in 2018. But that's been a long time. And it was just a minute. I'm so excited to reconnect here.

ELLEN: Yeah, me too. Thank you for reminding me the name of that event so that I can go back this year.

ANNE: Bookmarks NC in Winston-Salem.

ELLEN: Yeah, that'll be a treat.

ANNE: Ellen, it's a pleasure to get to talk today about your reading life. Would you give our readers a little bit of a sense of who you are? Where do you live and what are you up to most days?

[00:04:08] ELLEN: For sure, yeah. So I'm a 29-year-old woman that lives in the Triangle area of North Carolina. I've lived here my whole life, which is kind of rare, actually. A lot of people here in the Triangle are transplants. But yeah.

I just got a new job yesterday. I was just hired for a new position yesterday. So I'll be working for a commercial landscaping company and start in two weeks. So I'm pretty excited about that new opportunity.

ANNE: Congratulations.

ELLEN: Well, thank you.

ANNE: I'm happy to be talking to you at the beginning of this next phase of your professional life.

ELLEN: Yeah. I still won't start for two weeks. So what I'm really telling you, Anne, is you want to recommend more than three books today. I will have plenty of reading time.

ANNE: Well, if you need a 900-page novel, now's the time.

ELLEN: Oh, yeah, exactly. That might be a good time to tackle it, although it's a little intimidating. So outside of reading, which I try to do as much as I can, I love to crochet. I do a lot of blankets and bags and baby hats and things like that. I have a little Chihuahua. Her name is Duchess, and she is a long-haired Chihuahua.

[00:05:16] ANNE: Oh, my goodness.

ELLEN: So I heard a rumor that you had a long-haired Chihuahua growing up.

ANNE: The rumors are true, Ellen. When I was in fourth grade, we got a long-haired Chihuahua named Walker, who was the cutest. He wasn't particularly well-behaved, but we loved him very, very much. I still have a soft spot in my heart, especially for long-haired Chihuahuas. A lot of people don't know the difference, but long heads are the best. That's what you need to know. I know you're not going to argue with me.

ELLEN: I'm not going to argue with you. A lot of people would argue against the hair. And I would say she's a very small dog. So the percentage of hair to percentage of dog is pretty even. It's okay. What color was your Chihuahua, Anne?

ANNE: Like a brunet Chihuahua—that's how you describe that, right?—with some like golden highlights. He was a very handsome pup.

ELLEN: Oh, that's so sweet.

ANNE: What color is Duchess?

[00:06:13] ELLEN: Duchess is like an orange-red color. So a lot of people think she's a Pomeranian because she has long hair. So we get that a lot. But she is full Chihuahua. And if you get to know her, that's really... there's no denying it.

ANNE: Is Duchess your reading companion?

ELLEN: She's a great reading companion. She loves to lay in my lap and she's a portable dog. So no matter where I go, she can come with me and read with me. So yeah, she's currently laying in her bed asleep with her little stuffed animal. So she's a good little dog.

ANNE: Good girl. Ellen, I know you also love to travel. Have you been any cool places lately?

ELLEN: So the only place I've been recently as I just got the opportunity to go to Boston with my girlfriend for the first time this summer. Now, that was awesome. But the coolest place I think I've ever been was Jordan. I got to go... I've been to Israel twice, and on the second year we actually extended our trip and went to Jordan for three days. And we went to Petra and another ancient city called Rosh. And that was really amazing.

[00:07:19] The culture over there is really, really rich and the food is amazing. So I would recommend it to anybody. It's definitely a bucket list item to go and see those really, really a cool trip. There wasn't a second of that trip where I was disappointed in where we were or what we were doing. I was really, really excited to be there.

ANNE: Now, if there happens to be a fascinating book that was set in the country of Jordan, would you hypothetically be interested in this book?

ELLEN: Hypothetically, yes, if it was the right book, Anne.

ANNE: I don't know if it's the right book, but, you know, we'll find out. We'll just put a pin in that and we will decide by episode's end. And Ellen, tell me about your reading life.

ELLEN: Yeah. So I've always been a reader, Anne. I was lucky enough to grow up in a household where both of my parents were readers. Actually, if you want to get technical with it, my parents are divorced and both remarried. So four of my parents are readers. I was always surrounded by books.

[00:08:24] The first book I loved ever was Green Eggs and Ham by Dr. Seuss. I learned that book. I did not learn how to read that book, I memorized that book and convinced other people that I could read it. And my parents to this day hate that book because I read it over and over and over and over again.

But when the Harry Potter series came out, I think I was six maybe, and my mom started reading those to me and my brother when they came out. That really was the first time I think I realized, now I probably couldn't put words to this at six years old, but that I could get lost in a story and that I could escape through reading. And that was really what brought me into reading, was, I think, falling in love with the Harry Potter world. And it's funny because I don't always read a ton of fantasy now, but it's really what made me a reader, I think.

[00:09:25] So I've always been a reader. I've been listening to your podcast since 2017, and I'm not joking when I say it turned my reading life around to have all these books at my fingertips and to know other people made reading such a priority in their life and that that was a good thing.

Every time I'm listening to it, I'm writing books down that I want to read and then, you know, I'm reading those books. So I really have a lot of thanks for this podcast because I probably went from reading 15 to 20 books a year to now reading anywhere from 60 to 100 books a year. I know it's not about the numbers, but just to think that I'm consuming that much more, you know, literature and things like that, I just am so excited to be here.

ANNE: Oh, I'm so glad to hear that. Thank you. And I am happy that you were happy with the state of your reading life these days.

ELLEN: There's always room for improvement, Anne.

ANNE: And there's always new books to find to enjoy.

ELLEN: Exactly.

[00:10:28] ANNE: Ellen, you also mentioned in your submission that reading on Kindle has been really significant in your reading life. Would you tell me more about that?

ELLEN: Yeah. So I was always that stubborn person who was like, "No way would I ever switch over to a Kindle. I love the smell of books, I love going to used bookstores. What's the use of having a book if you can't lend it to someone or vice versa?" And then the pandemic hit.

I remember calling my dad one day, I hadn't seen him in a couple months because of COVID-19, and I said, "Gosh, I'm reading on my iPad, but it's kind of bulky and heavy and there's a glare on the screen." He was like, "Yeah, that's why I like my Kindle." And I was like, "Yeah, I'm thinking about it." And two days later I came home from work and there was a brand new Kindle sitting on my front porch that my dad had ordered for me.

ANNE: Oh, thanks, Dad.

[00:11:30] ELLEN: Yeah, it was great. So immediately I started, like, voraciously reading, and I just was so excited that I could just click a button and have any books that I wanted. I read 82 books in 2020, which was by far the most books I'd ever read.

ANNE: Ellen, while we're talking about the blessings of digital reading, you mentioned in your submission that you're feeling the corresponding curse of having devices in your life.

ELLEN: So you know, the phone... I think a lot of readers these days can understand where I'm coming from. It's always there. It's always on. You can always be distracted by it. Sometimes if you're somewhere without a Kindle or without your book, you can be reading on your phone. And then what happens? You get a notification and then you have to stop reading to respond to the notification.

[00:12:30] Now, I know that I'm very much in the generation of people being addicted to their phones, so I can't say much for having the self-control to be able to put it down. What I can say is I did hear one guest mention this a few weeks ago on the podcast, it's an app called Bookly. And what you can do is you start a timer and it will tell you you can record what page you started on and then what page you ended on and how long you read and how many pages you read and what your reading speed is.

Now the OCD part of my brain wants to not mess that number up, so I'm not going to pick up my phone while that timer is going. I'm going to be reading. So Bookly has been a pretty cool resource for me because it keeps me on track and it keeps me from getting distracted.

ANNE: Very nice. What else have you found to be helpful to focus more on what you're reading instead of scrolling?

ELLEN: Sometimes for me it's physical placement of where I am, right? So if I'm laying on my couch somewhere where I'm used to watching TV and kind of scrolling through my phone while the TV's on, I'm going to be more apt to reach for my phone in that scenario because that's what I'm used to doing.

[00:13:41] I love to read in bed. I don't know about other people, but sometimes I'll go to bed early just so I can have an extra hour of reading time because I know my phone's going to be plugged in. It's going to be on this bedside table. It's not going to be as distracting to me in that situation. And so, you know, taking myself out of situations where I'm used to just reaching for my phone instead of focusing on a book has been helpful as well.

ANNE: That's fantastic. Ellen, I have to say, those are very relatable problems about your phone addiction. I hope you think that I know better. But when I am tired, I will pop over Instagram to check one thing. Like, Oh, somebody recommended a book, let me get it out of my DMs. And however many minutes later—we won't put a number on it because that would be embarrassing—I find I'm still scrolling.

Something that I found helpful is to do like kind of a reverse timer. Well, what I mean by reverse timer is many people put on a timer so they can focus while they're reading. But sometimes I'll set a timer for a handful of minutes before I open a social media app to jolt me out of the doom scroll, should that be necessary.

[00:14:54] So often, depending on what I'm doing, if I really am checking one quick thing, I might set it for 2 minutes and it's going to go off. And I'm like, "Why is that? Oh, right, I'm not supposed to be scrolling anymore."

And even that small thing you said about just putting your phone on the bedside table, like this is reading time, it's not what I'm doing right now, is so wise. I'm glad you're finding that's working for you.

Readers, if you have great suggestions we would love to hear on whatshouldireadnextpodcast.com. You know that this is a common problem that we collectively as readers have not conquered and would love some tips.

Also, I feel like I say this a lot, but just having the awareness that this is something that we're all more susceptible to when we are tired, when we are hungry, when we're feeling unsettled. Like that's when it's harder to do the thing that we know we really want to do, which is read our book instead of do the endless, mindless scrolling.

[00:15:48] Not that there can't be a positive place for social media, but we all know the difference between scrolling because you're scrolling and scrolling because you want to read something on that social media app right now. It doesn't feel the same emotionally or to your brain.

ELLEN: I absolutely agree.

ANNE: Ellen, are there any possible solutions you've thought about implementing in that space?

ELLEN: You know, occasionally I think about chucking my phone out the window, but in the end, it's probably not feasible for my life and my job. So I keep my phone and I just try to limit my actions. When I find myself opening the same apps over and over and over again and seeing the same posts over and over and over again, I like to remind myself, just put the phone down and pick up your book.

ANNE: Well, let's see if we can get you some good books that will entice you to pick them up instead of picking up that phone. Ellen, are you ready to talk about your books?

ELLEN: I am ready, Anne.

[00:16:51] ANNE: Ellen, you know how this works. You're going to tell me three books you love, one book you don't, and what you've been reading lately and we'll talk about what you may enjoy reading next. Now, how did you pick these for today?

ELLEN: There was a couple of reasons I chose these specific books. The first reason is because I think that they kind of show a wide array of my reading tastes. So I didn't want to pick three books in the same category or of the same subject matter of the same genre, because that's not super indicative of what my reading life looks like. So I chose three books that I felt were pretty different from each other.

Also, Anne, I was trying to hack the system a little bit, and I chose three books I thought that I had never heard anybody talk about on your podcast before. I thought maybe that might get me selected.

ANNE: How did that work out for you?

[00:17:49] ELLEN: It worked out great because here we are, right? So yeah no, I thought it would be cool to talk about three books that I have really loved and have stuck with me. You know, I get a lot of my recommendations from your podcast. So to have these three that I haven't heard about people talk about on your podcast.

I could be wrong. They could have been mentioned and I missed it or forgot, but as far as I know, I didn't get them as a recommendation from here and I have heard people talk about them before. So I was pretty excited about that.

ANNE: Well, if you are a What Should I Read Next? patron, you can look this up because you have access to our super-secret spreadsheet vault. I will say your books did catch our eye here at What Should I Read Next? HQ. And we love to feature titles we haven't talked about before.

Emily Freeman did choose America's First Daughter as one of her favorites-

ELLEN: Oh, really?

ANNE: ...way back in April 2019. So three of four are brand new to the show. That makes me happy.

ELLEN: Well, I also think you would really love America's First Daughter. Just so you know.

[00:18:51] ANNE: I've not read it, but I'm excited to hear more about it. So you wanted to choose books that haven't been featured before. Any other guiding philosophies as you chose the books you loved and the books you didn't?

ELLEN: Yeah. I just wanted to choose books that had stuck with me. You know, I do read a lot. Not as much as some people, but more than a lot of people. So some books, you know as well as I do, they come in your head and then they leave your head when you're done with them. And I wanted to choose books that I go back to in my head and I think about the characters.

And I remember just really feeling like I was a part of the story, or I could relate to the story in a way that really moved me. These three books were definitely at the top of my list, so it made it a little bit easier. Not super easy.

ANNE: We don't expect it to be easy, but I'm glad it was a little bit easier. Okay, Ellen, on that note, what is the first book you love?

[00:19:50] ELLEN: The first book I love is called Mary Jane by Jessica Anya Blau, I believe is how you say her name. This book was pretty much everything I love about a book. I mean, it is atmospheric and it's visual and it has lots of music in it, and it's a coming-of-age story. Now, that is my kryptonite.

So I could have come on here and talked about three coming-of-age stories and you could recommend all coming-of-age stories to me, and I would be very content with that. But it is my weakness. I love a coming-of-age story. And this one was just done so, so well.

I felt like the whole book played out in front of me like a movie. I felt like I knew the characters in the book and I could just relate to the main character as a 14-year-old girl growing up in the 70s, which I was not, so well.

[00:20:51] Mary Jane is the title character. She's the main character. The book is told about the summer of when she's 14. She is from a very conservative, very Catholic household that her mom is very concerned. Everything needs to be ladylike. Everything needs to be proper. Everything needs to be polite.

And she gets a job this summer for a family as their nanny for their 5-year-old daughter. Their family is everything Mary Jane's family is not. They are liberal and outspoken and their house is a mess. The dad is a psychiatrist for addicts, and the mom doesn't have a job, and there's old food in the fridge. And Mary Jane is just blown away that somebody in her neighborhood could live this way.

[00:21:52] Over the course of the summer, the dad takes on a patient, the patient comes to live with them. The dad and the mom and Mary Jane and the daughter and then his patient and the patient's girlfriend all become this family unit. And they have the best summer together ever. And it changes the way Mary Jane sees the world and it changes the way she sees people and it changes the way she understands relationships to work and it changes her view on sex and on bodies and on emotions.

I was laughing so hard and crying so hard. I made everybody I know read this book. And I messaged the author on Instagram. I was so in love with this book, I messaged her immediately and just told her how wonderful I thought it was.

[00:22:56] I read 95 books last year and this was my favorite by far. I hope that they make a movie out of it. I really think it would make the most wonderful movie. It was really, really fun. And if not anything, for people who don't love it on the level that I absolutely loved and related to it, I think it's a very fun summer read.

ANNE: Oh, I would totally watch that movie. What a wonderful message to get as an author! I'm so glad that you connected with this book in that strong way.

ELLEN: She actually messaged me back almost immediately. She has been really wonderful to talk to. And I love that. I think it kind of takes that reading experience to the next level when you get to connect with the person who wrote it. That was really special to me.

ANNE: That sounds amazing. Ellen, tell me about the second book you love.

[00:23:49] ELLEN: So the second book I love was the one that I read longest ago. So I actually read this book, I believe, in 2017. I have been listening to it again on audio to try to refresh my memory a little bit, but it was one that stuck out in my brain well enough. I didn't feel the need that I needed to go back and reread the pages, every single one.

So this book is a fictionalized account of the story of Thomas Jefferson's oldest daughter, Patsy. I will say I knew nothing about Thomas Jefferson going into this book. I am not a history buff. I have never claimed to be a history buff.

But what really captured my interest about this was in the opening, like, you open the book and the first page tells you that Thomas Jefferson in his lifetime wrote over 18,000 letters, and a good portion of those were to his daughter, Patsy. So where they can, in this book, they take all of President Jefferson's dialog from his letters and from his interactions that they know he had.

[00:25:01] They've modernized the language, they fictionalized some relationships, and they've romanticized things for sure. As we all know, he held enslaved people and that was unfortunately part of the times then. They try to make it sound a little bit better than the reality of what that means. So you have to be conscious of that, I think. But they're also very real about it and very real about what that would have looked like for those people at that time.

What I really loved about this book was I was learning history and I didn't feel like I was learning history. I felt like I was reading this beautiful saga of a woman about her life and about her complicated relationship with her father, who was not an easy man to be around and not an easy man to love.

His wife passed away when his children were pretty young, so his daughter kind of acted as America's first lady when Thomas Jefferson was president. So it just told the story of her and her life and her family in a way that made it very real and very eye-opening.

[00:26:16] It's very beautifully told. Languages is really beautiful. It was co-written by two authors, Stephanie Dray and Laura Kamoie. I thought that was really interesting. They've done another book together as well. It's about Alexander Hamilton's wife. That was pretty enjoyable as well.

I didn't think it held a flame to America's First Daughter, but yeah, that book was really one that I think set my reading life off over the past... since 2017, like I mentioned earlier, my reading life is just kind of taken off in a more serious way. I prioritize it much more. And that book was kind of one of the first ones that I remember thinking, Wow. You know, it just adds a thirst for more and more books that might satisfy that urge.

ANNE: I'm so glad you found it.

ELLEN: Yeah, Anne. I do think you would really like this book. It's pretty good.

ANNE: I'm glad to hear it. Ellen, tell me about the third book you love.

[00:27:15] ELLEN: Okay, Anne. I'll be very honest with you. I have heard that you're a sensitive reader, so I would not recommend this third book to you at all.

ANNE: Okay, noted.

ELLEN: Or any sensitive reader in that context, because there's a lot of trigger warnings here. Now, I am not a sensitive reader. I like to read the tough stuff sometimes. And this book was one of the tough ones, but also really incredible.

It's about an Inuit shaman that's born in the far, far east of the Arctic in Canada. Their tribe is alone. Their ancestors had traveled there long, long ago, and they were completely alone. Their dream was to someday encounter other Inuit.

[00:28:07] This shaman was born the child of and the grandchild of the current spiritual leaders of their tribe, if you will. The child was born female biologically. And when the child was born, they said that she inherited her father's spirit. So she was raised in this Inuit tribe as a man. She was raised as a hunter. She was raised with all the other boys. It wasn't until she was older that someone pointed out to her, "Well, you're not a boy." and she was confused.

So what this book really is, is a tale of self-discovery. But it's a fictional account of what it might have been like should the Inuit have a meeting with the Norse Vikings. So it is very violent, to say the least. But it's also very powerful.

[00:29:10] The gender studies in this book and the worldbuilding in this book are truly something I've never read anything like it. It's fantasy and it's about the Inuit mythology, but it's also about Norse mythology. And the worldbuilding that comes from the collision of those two worlds is truly breathtaking.

Then you have Omat who is the main character. And Omat is trying to figure out whether she belongs in this world as a man or a woman, and what either one of those things would mean for her as an Inuit.

I just re-read this book because it had been a while and I wanted to make sure that it was as fantastic as I remembered it to be. And it was really, honestly, even better than I remembered. It was so, so good. I keep throwing it at people and saying, "Please, please read this, You will love it." And I am patiently waiting for this author to release something else, something that might be similar or might have another element of her world-building abilities because it was fantastic.

[00:30:24] ANNE: Well, I'm so glad to hear that it held up for you and that it's made such a difference in your reading life. Now, Ellen, tell us about a book that was not a good fit for you.

ELLEN: Anne, this might have been harder than choosing my favorites because it's not super common for me to dislike a book. I'm not incredibly picky, but when I dislike a book I'm very passionate about it. The reason I chose this book was because first of all, I read the whole thing probably in a less than two day period. I devoured this book.

And then I had no qualms in using the word "hate" because I felt lied to. This book is called Our Endless Numbered Days by Claire Fuller. I found this book in Barnes & Noble. My dad bought it for me. He goes to see if it comes back. My dad is the main reason I'm a reader. But my dad bought me this book and I read this book voraciously.

[00:31:29] It is about a father and a daughter. The father tells his daughter that the world has ended and he is going to save them. He's a doomsday prepper, if you will. I believe it's based in Germany. And he takes his daughter out into the woods and they build a cabin. It's kind of about their life that they're building away from civilization, because as far as the main character, the daughter knows they are the only last two people in the world.

Now, I will not give anything away. I know we don't do spoilers on the show. But I got to the end of this book and wanted to throw it so far away from me. I was disgusted, to be honest, and I felt lied to. I felt manipulated. I felt like the author purposefully kept information to turn it around and do nothing other than traumatize the reader later.

[00:32:30] I think the reason that it disappointed me so much was that I loved the book so much up until the ending, and then that ending just threw me for such a loop. I just couldn't say anything other than that I hated that book.

ANNE: I have heard some people say that they've gotten to the end of this book, read the ending, and wanted to go back and read it again, and some have been angry. I've not read this book, so I don't know what that ending consists of. I have some guesses based on what I've heard.

ELLEN: I will not recommend it to you.

ANNE: So, Ellen, have you reflected on what this means for your reading life and what you enjoy reading and don't?

ELLEN: I think that's the reason I'm so stumped about this book, is because a lot of the book and everything I read about the book going into it was something I would have really loved. So I didn't learn anything other than that maybe I won't read anything by that author ever again, unfortunately, because I don't trust her.

[00:33:30] ANNE: I'm always fascinated by books that people have strong feelings about where people love it or they really, really don't. You know, "This is the best thing I've ever read," or "Oh, why do so many people love this story?"

What I'm going to suppose here is that you like books that tell stories and that you don't perhaps like books that are just like interesting thought experiments.

ELLEN: I would probably agree with you on that.

ANNE: And I'm thinking that you don't like books where the author employs a narrative device that could go either way. Like some readers are going to be like, "Oh my gosh, that is brilliant. Whoa, I can't believe that just happened." And other readers are like, "Oh, I can't believe that just happened. I'm so angry. Like, I feel like you've broken a contract with me. I trusted you to tell me what actually was happening."

ELLEN: Yes.

ANNE: Also, I'm noting that you warned me away from sensitive content. I'm not sure if this is about trust or this is about content.

ELLEN: Yeah, I can take hard content. I need redemption. I need some help.

[00:34:33] ANNE: Okay. You know, I imagine I'm going to have a much better idea of how to put all that into words for your reading life in about a week. It's going to hit us when we're like walking our dogs or making dinner. But for now, I'm just going to say I think I'm tracking with the vibe. And definitely, no, I'm not going to recommend anything to you that does this massive switcheroo. I think you don't want something where like the whole meaning of the book is changed by something that happens in the last paragraph or the last five pages.

ELLEN: No, I can't do it. It doesn't give me the closure I need.

ANNE: Yeah. Some readers like to find out that, whoa, they're not in the story they thought they were. But you want to know what story you're in?

ELLEN: I think so. I'm okay with twists and turns, but I don't want to be shocked out of the book I was reading.

ANNE: And they need to happen before the very end.

ELLEN: Yeah, I think so.

ANNE: Okay. And you know what? This is for the reader you are now. There's room for that to change. And also, I just want to flag for everybody that there are readers who love to read a certain kind of plot device or stylistic element and readers who really, really don't. Which is what makes it so interesting to talk about the reading life. The thing that is perfect for you is horrendous for another reader and vice versa.

[00:35:46] So thank you for sharing what did not work at all for you with us, Ellen. We appreciate it. Collectively, we appreciate it.

Now, Ellen, what have you been reading lately?

ELLEN: One of my most favorite recent reads was This Tender Land by William Kent Krueger. That is one that stands out. I think if I had to guess, I got that recommendation from you. Last year I had... I just stuck this in here because I wanted to mention it, really. But This Is How It Always Is by Laurie Frankel is really just... it's an honorary mention because that truly was a wonderful book that I also heard about here.

But one of my favorite more recent reads, let's see, I just finished a book called Tipping the Velvet by Sarah Waters. It's a really, really beautiful lesbian love story based in the late 1800s and kind of offered a perspective on the queer community at that time that I had never even come across or considered. So it was really, really fun to read. I really enjoyed it.

[00:36:54] And then I was reading the afterword and the author mentioned that BBC did a three-episode short on it, and so I immediately binged that, which was really satisfying because it kept pretty true to the book. You know, it changed a little things, but it kept pretty true to the book.

And I've been reading the Inspector Gamache series by Louise Penny. So those have been a couple of the ones that I've read most recently, which of course I obviously got from this podcast. I just finished the 10th book. So I'm finally getting up there in the series and I'm very excited.

Another book I would mention was Beautiful World, Where Are You, I just read that, by Sally Rooney. Probably another example of a narrative idea that just didn't work out for me. I've heard a lot of people talking about Sally Rooney, and I think she's kind of growing in popularity recently, but I don't know if maybe I need to give another one of her books a shot. This one was not really for me, unfortunately.

[00:37:56] ANNE: It sounds like you've been reading a lot lately.

ELLEN: I've been trying.

ANNE: Ellen, what are you looking for in your reading life right now?

ELLEN: I read for escape. I think a lot of people read for different reasons, but I read to escape. I love a story I can get lost in. That doesn't necessarily mean otherworldly, right, but just a life that isn't mine. I don't necessarily turn towards fantasy. I know I mentioned the fantasy book here and I'm open to them, but I read more literary and realistic fiction and things like that.

I'm always looking for anything in the LGBT section. As a gay woman, you know, I love to find representation. I have a hard time reading any romance that isn't lesbian just for my own personal tastes. I love adventures. I love road trip stories. I love anything that kind of gets me away from my own little life.

[00:39:00] ANNE: All right. Thank you for that. Ellen, let's see what we've got. You love Mary Jane by Jessica Anya Blau, America's First Daughter by Stephanie Dray and Laura Kamoie, and The Wolf in the Whale by Jordanna Max Brodsky.

Not for you was Our Endless Numbered Days by Claire Fuller. And you have been reading a lot lately. Seems to be all in the contemporary literary historical cluster. Now in your reading life you are looking for... I love the way you put it. Like books that can take you away from your own little life: adventures, road trip stories, that you're always on the lookout for queer literature. Let's see what we can do here. What do you think?

ELLEN: I'm excited. Let's do it.

ANNE: First of all, you mentioned that you just made a career pivot from the world of construction to the soon-to-be new-to-you world of landscaping. And when I saw that you were a female at a construction company, something you drew attention to in your submission, I thought of a summer release that I had just read not so long before. It's the new book from Tracey Lange. She wrote We Are the Brennans. I don't know if you're familiar with it. But her new book is called The Connellys of County Down. Is this a book you're familiar with?

[00:40:15] ELLEN: No, not at all.

ANNE: Okay. She writes family stories. This new one, The Connellys, is set in the same universe as We Are the Brennans. Like, there's a little wink, wink, nudge, nudge, like, Oh, if you know, the Brennans at the local Irish pub. But other than that, the books don't have anything in common. You can absolutely start with The Connellys of County Down.

It's about three siblings. It begins when the sister, Tara, is released from prison and you know she's been there on a drug charge. And you quickly find out that there's something she's not telling her siblings and that she's not owning up to. But you don't know what it is. But she's coming home to her siblings. And they are both struggling in their own way.

Her brother is suffering from a brain injury that he sustained at work and he's still having problems with it. And her type-A sister has always been able to keep everything, you know, moving ahead like it's everything done, perfectionist, firstborn takes care of business. But she's not taking care of business right now, and she doesn't want to admit she needs help or why.

[00:41:15] There's a peripheral character in this story who gets a fair amount of time on the page. And that is a colleague of the brothers. She's the lone female at the construction company. She does administration. She does the book. She knows what everyone is doing. She knows everything that happens. And she steps in to nudge this brother that she works with in the direction that she sees he needs to go and believes in him when nobody else will.

And I won't say anything else, but I imagine that you don't see your specific niche represented in the pages of fiction that often. So I know that you just left that world behind, but it's very recent. I thought that might be a fun one for you to check out.

ELLEN: It's incredibly recent, and that sounds really enticing to me.

ANNE: Ellen, that is The Connellys of County Down. It's by Tracey Lange. Some readers will care deeply that The Connellys of County Down is also the name of a story that these siblings' mother told them night by night when they were children. That's the name of their family fairy tale. And it has a place in the story that a lot of readers are really going to enjoy for that book within a book element.

[00:42:25] ELLEN: Yeah, I love that.

ANNE: I'm glad to hear it. Okay. You know, we put a pin in Jordan. Now, when people talk about escape, I mean, this is not like a lighthearted, breezy escape. This is kind of brooding escape. But it's in Jordan. Can we talk about it?

ELLEN: For sure. Yeah.

ANNE: This is by Siobhan Fallon. It was a summer reading I picked ages ago, like 2017, 2018. It's called The Confusion of Languages. It's the story of two military wives on this base in Jordan. And the story begins with an accident. It was just a fender bender. The military wife who was driving was not at fault, but she's been in Jordan for two years and she knows "I'm an American. It's my fault no matter what. I'm always the guilty party."

And her friend who has just arrived in Jordan, whose husband is also stationed at the embassy is really unhappy and chafes against these local customs and all the other cultural pressures. She feels as an American living in a country that she feels is becoming increasingly dangerous for her to be in.

[00:43:30] But she determines to go pay what they refer to as the guilt tax anyway, and asks her friend to babysit her child while she just runs to take care of this. But her friend doesn't come back. So after this setup, which feels tense and uneasy but not yet ominous, you see the friend becoming first annoyed and then increasingly worried. And she starts spinning back through their history together. The recent days and also the ones long go by as she's realizing what she may not even understand about her friend at all.

So with those inciting events of just a tiny car accident in Jordan, we end up with a close look at two women, two different marriages, and two different worlds that they're trying to occupy simultaneously. And it's dark and it's broody, and it's been set in this place that you have been to. Maybe that's worth picking up. What do you think?

ELLEN: Anne, I think I have read this.

ANNE: Oh, really? Okay, how did it go for you?

ELLEN: I think it was really good. I don't remember it very well. So maybe I need to reread it.

[00:44:33] ANNE: Maybe you do. And I will say it could have been a while.

ELLEN: Yeah, I think I read this back in 2019, which was actually the year I went to Jordan.

ANNE: Please find out and report back.

ELLEN: Yeah, absolutely. But you're on the right track.

ANNE: Okay. I'm glad to hear it. Now, you talked about an adventure stories and seeing this love for historical fiction and exploring new places and also with some elements of The Wolf in the Whale. I'm wondering about Eowyn Ivey's Alaska story is for you. Have you read To the Bright Edge of the World?

ELLEN: I have not. The only thing I've read by them was The Snow Child.

ANNE: Yes, that's a common answer. This one is also set in Alaska. It's set, I believe, earlier. The Snow Child is about settlers in Alaska. I think they're homesteaders. And The Bright Edge is set earlier when the first explorers are... I mean, that's what they're doing. They're exploring.

[00:45:32] I've heard this expedition that was sent into Alaska compared to like a Lewis and Clark style expedition. Their mission is to explore the upper branches of the Wolverine River, which is wild.

So this story is really interesting in that it's told in two timelines. In the first timeline, you get journal entries and letters and diary notes and military reports happening in 1885 Alaska. And you get third-person narrative about one of the explorers and his wife back at the base and what she's coping with is she's pregnant and can't travel and probably wouldn't be allowed to anyway. And what that's all like from her perspective.

But then in something more akin to the present time, you see correspondence between the ancestor of those who are writing those documents back in the day and a museum curator. I want to equivocate and say some readers don't love the dual timeline. I think it's done really well in this book.

[00:46:35] I think something else that's really interesting in this story and all of Eowyn Ivey's fiction is the presence of Alaska native culture and mythology. That's really big in this book. And it's set against these just like lush and lavish descriptions of the untamed Alaskan wilderness.

I feel like this book is difficult to describe because it sounds like nothing happens, and yet it feels like such a, ah, ticking clock. Rushing river. Oh, my goodness. What will happen next? Will we be okay? Adventure story. And I think it has the right mood and vibe that makes it fit in amongst some of your favorites. How does that sound to you?

ELLEN: That sounds great. Like I said, I love The Snow Child, so I'm really willing to give anything she's written a shot. That sounds really beautiful.

ANNE: I'm glad to hear it. And, let's see, how many can we do without getting completely ridiculous and still making sure that you get...?

[00:47:37] ELLEN: I've got two weeks off work, Anne.

ANNE: Yeah. ...make sure you'll be interested in. All right. On a very different tone on those, I am wondering if you have read The Delilah Green Doesn't Care series by Ashley Herring Blake.

ELLEN: I know nothing about this.

ANNE: Really? Okay. I think this is going to be really fun for you. So this is romance with some open-door scenes of the books that you loved. It's most akin to Mary Jane. But you also mentioned that you read a lot of queer romance these days. I think this could be such a fun series for you.

What I also think it has in common with Mary Jane, though it's in a different genre, is that Mary Jane is so much about unlikely friends finding each other. And this whole series from Ashley Herring Blake, it's called Bright Falls.

So what we see in this whole Bright Falls series is just really beautiful and fun queer-found family. Something else that I really love about the series is that there are kind of a big cast. There are lots of secondary and supporting characters who feel fully fleshed out and like they matter in the story. They're not just props. And you enjoy getting to know them too. And you want to hear more from them, which is handy because Ashley Herring Blake keeps putting out more books in this series.

[00:48:53] That third book comes out in October. So in this first book, which again is called Delilah Green Doesn't Care, we meet Delilah Green, who comes home to her small town that she thought she would never come back to, but she crosses paths with a small-town bookstore owner. And is set up for like a really fun but also really emotional romance.

So the bookstore owner, her name is Claire. Delilah doesn't make a great first impression on her. Delilah is prickly, Claire is controlling. It's kind of oil and water at first. And they just seem to irritate each other. But as often goes in a story like this, as they navigate personal dramas and as they realize they might start to be growing some feelings as well, they get past that initial ill will and start to really get to know each other.

So I think something you could really enjoy about the story is just the really positive portrayal of friendship and love and community and queer-found family. Also, there are a few bookstore scenes, snarky humor, a couple maybe, perhaps laugh-out-loud moments. How does that sound to you?

[00:50:05] ELLEN: That sounds so cute.

ANNE: How do you feel about series, Ellen?

ELLEN: I like a series. I tend to enjoy them because I can kind of spread them out and pick one up when I am floundering for something else to read.

ANNE: Well, there are two books in that series available to you now, and the third book is coming this October. Ellen, let's do one more. Do you want to do romance or historical fiction?

ELLEN: Historical fiction.

ANNE: Okay. You have chosen door number two, The Final Revival of Opal & Nev by Dawnie Walton. This is a lot of fun. If you ever listen to audiobooks in addition to reading that Kindle, this is going to be great for you.

So this is often compared to Daisy Jones & the Six and for good reason, because it's another completely fictional rockumentary. This is about the 1970s music scene. Opal and Nev is the band centering AfroPunk singer Opal Jewel, who is fierce and fashionable in her presence, and a British musician whose name is Nev. And they came together and made music history.

[00:51:17] So this fictional rockumentary focuses on one concert in particular. Opal and Nev were a hit interracial duo and reluctantly, they agreed to open for a popular Southern band's concert. And before that concert was over, a lot of terrible things happened. Relationships were ruined forever. A man was killed and a photographer captured a moment that lives forever in history in this fictional world.

But the journalist is trying to get to the root of "but what really happened?" And he tells us what it was really like we're trying to understand all these years later. And as we find out, the journalist has a personal stake in the outcome.

So I have to tell you, this is the kind of story that feels so real and so convincing. I had to do a lot of Googling to be like, "Wait, how made up is this? Are we sure they're not real? Are they modeled very closely after a real event?" Because it feels so authentic?

There's some hard things that happen in these pages. I don't think that will be an issue for you, given what you read. But heads up to other readers for like violence, racial slurs. There's a lot of substance abuse in this story.

[00:52:23] But I think this could be a different kind of fun historical. It's got that musical element like Mary Jane had. What do you think?

ELLEN: That sounds so fun. I'm really excited about that one.

ANNE: I'm so glad. Okay, of the books we talked about today that you haven't read yet, we have The Connellys of County Down by Tracey Lange, To the Bright Edge of the World by Eowyn Ivey, Delilah Green Doesn't Care by Ashley Herring Blake, and we finished with The Final Revival of Opal & Nev by Dawnie Walton. Ellen of those books, what do you think you'll read next?

ELLEN: I'm torn between the first two, but I think I'm gonna go To the Bright Edge of the World. I think that's going to be my read this week.

ANNE: I'm happy to hear it. That's not what I expected, but I'm delighted to hear it, and I hope it's a good fit for you.

ELLEN: Awesome. Well, thank you so much.

ANNE: It's my pleasure. Thank you so much for talking books with me.

[00:53:17] Hey readers, I hope you enjoyed my conversation with Ellen, and I'd love to hear what you think she should read next. Find Ellen on Instagram [@ellen.g.harry?]. And find the full list of titles we talked about at whatshouldireadnextpodcast.com.

Make sure you're following along in Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Overcast, wherever you get your podcasts. Whether you're a longtime listener like Ellen or you're new to our listening community, a surefire way to share the love with others is by leaving a review on Apple Podcasts. Reviews are our love language around here on our team, and your words really make an impact.

Thank you for all of you who've left the review in the past and who are going to take 2 minutes to go do that right now.

Sign up for our email list at whatshouldireadnextpodcast.com/newsletter, and we'll send you regular updates on what's happening here at What Should I Read Next?. This is the simplest way to stay connected.

We are also on Instagram. We share fun quotes from each week's episode, roundups of recent bookish curiosities and more. Join the fun and follow us @whatshouldireadnext

You will find my personal account there too. I'm @annebogel.

Thanks to the people who make this show happen. What Should I Read Next? is created each week by Will Bogel, Holly Wielkoszewski, and Studio D Podcast Production. Readers, that's it for this episode. Thanks so much for listening. And as Rainer Maria Rilke said, "Ah, how good it is to be among people who are reading." Happy reading, everyone.