[00:00:17] SHANA FERGUSON: I'll go months without reading anything and then I'll find a book that I like and I'll start reading, and it's like I'm a little kid reading under the covers and staying up late reading a book. Except for that I'm in my mid-30s and have to go to work the next day and there's no one to say, "Put the book down, you can read more tomorrow."

ANNE BOGEL: Hey readers, I'm Anne Bogel and this is What Should I Read Next?. Welcome to the show that's dedicated to answering the question that plagues every reader, what should I read next? We don't get bossy on the show. What we will do here is give you the information you need to choose your next read. Every week we'll talk all things books and reading and do a little literary matchmaking with one guest.

Readers, it is back to school season and by now most of you have probably stocked your kid's backpack with the school supplies from this year's list. But many adults also get all nostalgic about back-to-school shopping. I mean, I love a bouquet of freshly sharpened pencils, and I get all wistful at the smell of Scotch tape.

A reading journal is the perfect all-ages school supply, whether or not you will be in the classroom this season. Choose from My Reading Life, which is geared to grownups, or My Reading Adventures created for the 8 to 12-year-old crowd but beloved by all ages. These are the journals I designed to help you and your young readers get more out of their reading lives.

Order one for you or the reader in your life, wherever you buy your new books. And yes, that absolutely includes your local indie. Or you can check them out on our site at whatshouldireadnextpodcast.com.

[00:01:41] Readers, when today's guest wrote in her submission that she didn't feel like a real reader, I knew we had to talk because you know around here we support reading of all varieties. Shana Ferguson joins me today from New York City, where she works as a stage manager.

Before returning to the city, she worked on a wide range of Broadway tours and she loves being able to bring her big camp counselor energy to projects on the stage as well as read on her Kindle no matter where she is. When Shana is not at work, you'll often find her baking or drinking tea, and sometimes she'll also have a book in her hands.

The daughter of dedicated readers, Shana has struggled at times to have a firm grasp on her own reading identity and to find that rhythm for herself. She's eager to explore more about that today.

Shana is also eager to reconnect with the genre she loved when she was a younger and more habitual reader. Those are historical fiction, sci-fi, and fantasy. I'm excited to see where the conversation takes us. I am hopeful Shana feels like a real reader after our talk today and comes away with a short stack of titles that she is excited to read next. Let's get to it.

Shana, welcome to the show.

[00:02:49] SHANA: Thank you so much for having me. This is so exciting.

ANNE: Oh, it's my pleasure. Our team loved the submission you sent in. So thank you for that. I'm so excited to dive into your reading life today.

SHANA: Me too. I'm kind of all over the place. So I'm curious to see what you think and what suggestions you have.

ANNE: All over the place in the reading life?

SHANA: Yes, we're all over the place in the reading life. I have previously been all over the place in my real life, but that's getting a little more under control.

ANNE: I would say geographically or metaphorically. But, you know, we'll get there. We'll get there. Shana, tell us a little bit about that life that's been all over the place. We just want to give our readers a glimpse of who you are.

SHANA: Sure. So I work as a stage manager and I have been touring with National Tours of Broadway musicals for the last couple of years. So that means I've been on the road full time. All of my things have been in storage and I've been touring the country, bringing a couple of different shows to different cities. I'm a stage manager, so I work backstage to help get the show running. But I have recently returned to New York City, so I'm now in one place and in my own apartment for the first time in a long time.

[00:04:03] ANNE: Oh, welcome home.

SHANA: Thank you.

ANNE: Now, for those who don't know, give us the nerdy version of what it actually means to do your job so people understand what it means to be backstage. You're not singing and dancing like in front of the audience. What is your specific role backstage?

SHANA: So I'm a stage manager and I don't have a very short elevator pitch because it's kind of a funky job. But we're sort of like the project managers of each production or I would sometimes say if the production is a spinning wheel where the center hubcap or spoke. So we make sure that everything that needs to happen on stage happens.

So it starts from in the rehearsal room where they're at first rehearsal, making the schedule and making sure that everything is taught and covered and the director has what they need and the other creatives have what they need to put the show together. We are one of the few people that get to talk to everyone on a show. We connect with designers, performers, the creative team, the producers, press people.

[00:05:11] And then when we go to the stage, nothing happens on stage without a stage manager physically saying go. So one stage manager will call the show, which means they have their script with all of the light cues, sound cues, any other automation cues, or anything like that, and they will say, “Lights 126, go" and the lights will change.

And then the stage managers backstage will make sure that everything's running well. Everyone has their props that they need, the entrances are being made. If there's a show that is very technically difficult, they'll make sure that everything is happening safely, watching scenery pieces move, making sure everyone's where they need to be.

And then when things don't go perfectly according to plan, as they sometimes tend to do in the theater, stage managers are the ones who make the decisions of what to do next. So is someone sick? Which understudy do we put on? Did something not work properly? How do we fix it?

So we're kind of here, there, and everywhere. But that's why I love it, because I don't enjoy performing but I love the theater, so I love being a part of it from first rehearsal to closing night.

[00:06:20] ANNE: One stage manager described their job to me once like this. They said, "I get stressed so nobody else has to."

SHANA: Yes. You're also-

ANNE: No. I was hoping you would tell me that's ridiculous.

SHANA: It's not always the case. You're definitely a people manager. So people will come to you with their first reaction and not necessarily their best reaction after thinking it over for 5 minutes. You know, if something goes wrong on stage, someone will come to you and... Especially if it's a performer, they might be embarrassed or scared because they don't know what went wrong. You know, they're the ones who are physically out there. Or you have a creative who is really passionate about their project and you're the first person they turn to. And then maybe 10 minutes from now, they might have a more nuanced request or response. But you kind of get that.

I would say you shouldn't be stressed all the time. Some days you just come to work and do the show and go home. But some days, you know, at the end of the day, if something's happening and a decision needs to be made, usually it's the stage manager making that decision with the help of the rest of the team, depending on what the issue may be.

[00:07:28] ANNE: How did you get into that?

SHANA: I actually got started in high school. I had done performing arts growing up ever since I was a little kid. I was in dance classes at age three, and I was the kid who even then I knew I was never going to be a ballerina. That was not my destiny. But I really enjoyed doing it. I did musical theater camp growing up. I was the one who showed up on time off book and knew everything but wasn't particularly gifted but just had fun.

And then in high school, I was introduced to working backstage by a friend of mine who had moved to our city and had done backstage work at her previous school. And then there is a program in a theater in Maryland near where I grew up, which I think has been renamed. But at the time it was called the Sarah Metzger Memorial Play. And it's a play directed, designed, and performed by high schoolers who are paired with professional mentors.

[00:08:31] A friend of mine from theater camp was directing our senior year. She had been involved in this program before and she asked if I would be her stage manager. And I got paired up with a professional stage manager who sort of opened my eyes to what this job is. I learned how to call the show, I learned how to run rehearsals, and I immediately went, "Oh, this is what I want to do."

I had already started applying to colleges at that point, and I thought I was going to be a nurse, and then I made a huge turnaround and went, "Oh no, I want to be a stage manager instead."

ANNE: Oh, wow. That's a big difference.

SHANA: Yeah. But at the end of the day, it's working with people, which is what I really love to do. You're still working long hours sometimes, then trying to make things happen together. But I think the most important part of both of those jobs is that you're working with people.

ANNE: Yeah, that is so interesting when you put it like that. Doesn't sound so different after all. Now, Shana, I got your submission. I know what it says, so I have to ask. Tell me about baking and drinking tea.

[00:09:32] SHANA: Oh, my two favorite things.

ANNE: I'm so glad I asked.

SHANA: Yeah. I love to bake. I am both a stress baker and also a baker in times of joy. I find it soothing. I love how specific it is. I'm an okay cook, but I am a good baker. I don't like to compliment myself too much, but I'm a pretty good baker. I like that there are rules and you can play within the rules. I grew up in a house that had a cookie jar, and there were always cookies in the cookie jar, and that's sort of how I live my life.

I do the same thing that my mother does, which is you make a big batch of cookie dough, you scoop it out into what we call blobbies and then you freeze the blobbies so that you can bake cookies at any time. You just open up the freezer, put some... if you come home at the end of the day, you just need to fresh bake chocolate chip cookies, you can make that happen.

And I got into drinking tea because I think I'm the only person who works in theater who doesn't like coffee. But now I am a very big tea drinker. I have a whole tea shelving unit in my apartment with all different kinds of loose-leaf tea. And it's just something really soothing and wonderful to have a cup at the end of the day or the beginning of the day or the middle of the day.

[00:10:50] ANNE: I love that you're not picky. Now, Shana, tell us about your reading life.

SHANA: Okay. I do not consider myself a real reader, but I have gotten more into reading as an adult. I grew up in a family of readers. Both my parents read a lot. My sister reads a lot. My dad still especially reads so much. They're the type of people who are reading minimum... I asked my dad how many books he read a year and he could not tell me. The number was so high. He just sort of shrugged and did that dad thing.

I've started reading more on tour. I got a Kindle as a gift while I was on the road, and that kind of really opened my eyes a little bit because I could get books from the library and read them anywhere. I could read them on the plane every Monday when we were flying to a new city for work. And I started to get more into it.

But I think readers are people who read so many books and then are part of the reader culture. Like my TikTok is not BookTok. My Instagram "for you" page doesn't have all these other, you know, book-related things.

[00:12:07] Listening to this podcast is sort of the only bookish thing I do. And I started listening to it on the road because I had no idea how to find books. And I was like, "Oh, What Should I Read Next?" That seems like a good way to figure out what books would be good.

And I've sort of started reading more and more, but I'm very inconsistent. I'll go months without reading anything, and then I'll find a book that I like and I'll start reading, and it's like I'm a little kid reading under the covers and staying up late reading a book. Except for that I'm in my mid-30s and have to go to work the next day and there's no one to say, "Put the book down. You can read more tomorrow." That's sort of where I'm in right now, here, there, and everywhere.

ANNE: Okay, so real readers watch book talk. Is that what you're saying?

SHANA: I think so. Or-

ANNE: You know I was going to give you a hard time about this. Shana, I think you're a real reader. So I'm thinking, you said before we got started, like... you know, this isn't a therapy question. And I know a therapist would be like, "Shana, I invite you to come to your own conclusions." But I'm not a therapist. Yeah, I can argue with the premise.

[00:13:11] SHANA: Sure. I think I need to step into my own and proclaim myself a reader. You know, if you ask, "Oh, name three things about yourself," I would never even think to say that I'm a reader. I would say that I'm a former tuba player, a former camp counselor, and a stage manager. It wouldn't cross my mind.

And I have friends who read way more than I do, and I have friends who read way less than I do who would probably call me a reader. But for whatever reason, I don't have the confidence to hold on to that title.

ANNE: All right, I believe in you. I feel like you can claim it. And I also feel like it's something you can enjoy and something that you can own even if you have not made books and reading your entire identity. That is valid.

SHANA: Thank you.

ANNE: Also, that is not necessary to be a real reader, okay, I mean, you like to read and that's great. But I do hear a lot from people like, oh, they don't feel like they're a real reader if they're not reading all the time or if they can go two months watching good shows on TV instead of reading good books. I mean, if you read books, you're a reader. And that doesn't have to be four at a time in the present tense.

[00:14:19] SHANA: That's so true. And I'm sure I would tell that to someone else. I need to work on telling that to myself.

ANNE: Oh my gosh, that's such a good way to put it. If a friend told you that, that their reading life doesn't count, what would you say to them? Yes, that's a wonderful question. Thank you for saying that out loud for yourself and for all our listeners. I appreciate it. And I think that's good to hear. So you're a reader, but you're an inconsistent reader. Are you cool with that? Because it's okay to be cool with that.

SHANA: I'd like to always have one book. You know, even if I'm not reading particularly quickly, I'd like to always have a book. Although sometimes it really is dependent on my work commute. Because I go from show to show, if I have a kind of a long subway commute, I like to have a book that I can read on the subway. I'll walk onto the train and I'll decide if there's room to sit, I'll take out my Kindle and I'll read it. And if there's not room to sit, I'll keep listening to my podcast. And I kind of like that choice.

I have learned that I cannot read multiple books at the same time, and that's okay. But I think it's always nice to have one on the nightstand. And it doesn't have to be life-changing literature that makes me question my place in the world. But it's nice to, you know, have a little something.

[00:15:38] ANNE: Yeah. Okay. So I'm thinking about this. It sounds like you appreciate always having an open invitation to read. Like, there is something there waiting for you or there's something there that you know you want to read next so that it's always available to you and ready when you want it.

SHANA: Yes, exactly.

ANNE: Okay. I love it. Well, I'm excited to get into your books today. Are you ready to do that?

SHANA: I am.

ANNE: Shana, you know how this works. You're going to tell me three books you love, one book you don't, and what you've been reading lately and we'll take a look at what you may enjoy reading next. How did you choose these for today?

SHANA: I think like most of the guests you've had on the show, I went through a brief existential crisis while trying to narrow down to only three books. And I tried to pick books that sort of represented a series of books that I've read and I've liked. And one of them is a book that I recommend to everyone because I think most of my peers have not read. So I think it's always a nice curveball because I enjoyed it so much.

[00:16:44] ANNE: I can't wait to find out which one that is. Okay, Shana, what is the first book you love?

SHANA: So the first book I love is that curve ball. It's Never Have Your Dog Stuffed: And Other Things I've Learned by Alan Alda.

ANNE: Shana, I have not read this.

SHANA: Oh, my gosh. Anne! Okay. So I'm not your typical demographic, but M*A*S*H was and is my favorite TV show. And Alan Alda has actually written three books and they're all wonderful but Never Have Your Dog Stuffed is his memoir, essentially. And he talks about growing up his father was the famous actor, Robert Alda, and he grew up backstage in vaudeville shows. It would talk about his relationship with his mother that he really struggled with and finding its way in show business and meeting his wife. And it's so lovely.

He tackles some darker things but with a lot of humor. I, in general, really love memoirs by comedy writers. I feel like they have a really wonderful voice and really interesting stories to tell. And even if they hadn't written a book before, they have written before. So it's very readable as opposed to sometimes memoirs with very famous people who haven't had to write down their story or express themselves in writing before sometimes it's a little clunky. This flows so well.

[00:18:05] And not that you should buy a book for the photos in the middle of the memoir, but there's some great black-and-white photos. When he was a really young kid, I think when he was three, his parents lied to a reporter and said that he liked to smoke a pipe. So there's pictures of a toddler, Alan Alda, with a pipe in his mouth in the newspaper article.

ANNE: Okay. I was about to presume that this is one I should listen to on audio but the pictures.

SHANA: Right. It is a great audiobook as well. The only other downside of it being an audiobook is that it's abridged, which isn't a total, you know, roadblock.

ANNE: Ooh

SHANA: But Alan Alda does read it and it sounds wonderful. But I first read this book in high school, and I actually went to a book signing, and I think I was the youngest person by about 45 years, and it was amazing. I loved it.

ANNE: Oh, now I wish there were pictures of that book signing.

[00:19:05] SHANA: Right. My best friend took a picture and it's somehow we're lost in the ages of some hard drive. I have a friend who we're still very, very close and she lives in New York as well and she is the most supportive of anyone's fandom. Even if she is not a huge fan, she loves that you love something. And she went to this book signing with me and is still that supportive years later.

But Alan Alda actually wrote three books. His third book is one I've given to friends who work in STEM a lot. It's called If I Understood You, Would I Have This Look on My Face? And it's all about communication between doctors and patients and scientists and how scientists can make all these discoveries but they need help communicating these ideas to others.

I love a memoir. I love Alan Alda, But also I think I love learning about other people's journey in show business, especially there's some nostalgia with that. And I love anything by comedy writers. I've read some other memoirs that have been really wonderful.

[00:20:10] ANNE: You said something interesting in your submission. You said that you thought that you were really pretty good at using memoirs, that you have in fact gone on to read and really enjoy, but you really struggle with other genres. Would you tell me more about your memoir picker and why you think it works for you?

SHANA: To be honest, it's a lot of performers' memoirs, I think, because it's nice to read a book by someone who is a storyteller already, even if they're not normally a novelist. I think I just kind of follow my heart and I go, "Oh, that's interesting," and it usually works out. I've only not finished one memoir. And it was this person's... I don't want to even name it because I was so sad that I could not get through it. And it was this person's second memoir and I loved their first one.

ANNE: In most people's professions, they're never going to meet the author, and you can respectfully say, this is no good. But who knows and [inaudible 00:21:08].

[00:21:08] SHANA: Right. And I'm sure someone has read it and loved it and, you know, and maybe in the future I'll pick it up again and be like, this is the right time for me to read it. I do this in theater, too. If it's something I don't enjoy, I do try to think of, "Well, who would enjoy it if it's not for me? Someone will like this." Because no one would spend that much time and effort to create something if it didn't feel right for them.

ANNE: Yes, that's such a good question. And that's really interesting about choosing your own memoirs, following your heart. I'm glad it's working. Shana, what is the second book you love?

SHANA: So the second book I love is Ender's Game by Orson Scott Card. Ender's Game is the first book that I actually reread. I used to not be a reader at all, and that was sort of the first book that I would go back and read every two years or so. And I used to read a lot more science fiction fantasy, but I really haven't lately. And part of it is because I think I read everything my parents and my sister read. And now that I'm a grown adult, I don't just walk to someone's bedroom and go, "What are you reading?" And grab it.

And the other thing is a lot of sci-fi fantasy folks that I liked growing up, I have now learned the authors are kind of problematic humans.

[00:22:24] ANNE: Oh, that's the worst to have those very adult realizations.

SHANA: Yeah. I'm very open to new sci-fi fantasy, ideally written by people who I would say are not problematic. Or maybe it's an underrepresented person too, maybe an author of color, or someone I maybe wouldn't normally have read growing up. But I kind of don't know where to begin with that. It's sort of similar with historical fiction—you can't just search historical fiction on Libby because that is too broad. You can't just search sci-fi fantasy on Libby. You just get a million titles and not really any sort of direction.

ANNE: Yeah, I hear what you're saying. So it sounds like you really haven't explored much as an adult, especially in that sci-fi fantasy realm.

SHANA: Correct. Yeah. Pretty much. I read a lot of sci-fi fantasy as a kid, and I haven't really read it as an adult. The only series that I read as an adult is His Majesty's Dragon. I really enjoyed it. But again, is it historical fiction, or is it fantasy? Because it's Napoleonic wars. A British naval officer discovers a dragon's egg because it's the Napoleonic wars, but everyone also has an air force of dragons. So it's sort of one foot in each category.

ANNE: Well, maybe historical fantasy is the genre you didn't know you wanted to binge through in this next year of your reading life.

SHANA: That's very true.

[00:23:47] ANNE: Mm-hmm. Because that is a whole thing. Actually, there are lots of good ideas in that realm that I think are ticking some of the boxes you could be looking for. Also, there are a lot of historical fantasies and alternate histories, but that is a much smaller list of returns on Libby than just historical fiction would be.

SHANA: Right.

ANNE: What was it about Ender's Game that caused you to come back to it?

SHANA: That's a really good question. I like coming-of-age stories. I don't like children having really grave responsibilities in real life, but it is a very engaging concept in literature. It's funny, when I read The Hunger Games when that first came out, I was reading it and I go, "Oh, this makes me just want to read Ender's Game." Because it's sort of a similar dystopian novel, you know, a dystopian novel with someone who thinks the government is doing one thing, but it's actually another thing.

I like the focus that's sort of a Chosen One mentality has in a book where we're kind of following this person and they have to complete these steps. And I'm not against... sounds terrible to say. I'm not against violence in books. I don't like it in real life, but war stories are really engaging to me. I don't mind high-stakes life or death in book form.

[00:25:06] ANNE: So it's okay if it's a little gritty.

SHANA: Yes, totally fine.

ANNE: Okay. That is helpful to know. And what did you choose for your third favorite, Shana?

SHANA: So I chose the Outlander series, which was a huge game changer for me because I'm really late to anything remotely romantic, which is why I wouldn't have picked it up, except for I didn't know how long it was because I was reading it on Kindle and it was available from the library. I love that it kind of has everything because it has historical fiction and there's a romance that I do enjoy. There's a romance element to it. But then there's also land wars and medical procedures, and mistaken identity.

I haven't read the whole series. I've read all but the final book she's written. I know there's another book she hasn't published yet. But I really liked it.

[00:26:01] What I liked about it is that the romance does play a big part in the story, but it's not the entire story. I've tried reading some romance novels and that's sort of not my thing. And I don't know if it's just because of the length of the novel you can't create as much of a world. Or that's not what a romance novel's for. That's not what it's trying to do.

But I also love all the medical stuff that Claire does, especially in the later books. She's the surgeon. The most recent one I read, they talk about someone's broken orbital bone for like two chapters. And I have a friend who is like, "I cannot handle it." And I was like, "This is great." I really like that kind of stuff.

I read a book in middle school, I think, called The Midwife's Apprentice, which was about like a middle-aged midwife, I think, that I loved. So I don't remember anything that happens in that book, but I remember how it made me feel. Something like that for an adult would be great.

You know, I recommended the series to my mother. And she has a really long drive, so she did the audiobooks with them. And she sailed through all of them. She laughed at me, she passed me, and then reread them and I was like, "Don't tell me any spoilers. I'm trying to savor them." And she's devouring them because she's a big reader or a big audiobook listener.

[00:27:14] But I like that it kind of ticks a lot of the boxes. There's some fantasy elements to it, there's some historic things to it, there's war stories, there's romance. Because the books are so long, there's little moments she writes that are just like everyday moments. Like a little paragraph that doesn't necessarily push the plot forward, but just sort of paints a small picture of what life is like. You know, like a little conversation first thing in the morning or a little, you know, someone's getting ready for the day. There's like a little detail that helps create the world, which I really like.

ANNE: There's a book coming out I think you're going to like.

SHANA: Wooo.

ANNE: And I have to tell you, when you first said Outlander, the medical stuff was not one of the things I expected you to tick off on your list. I love that you brought that into it and that you love to find those kinds of things in the books you enjoy reading. Shana, what book was not right for you?

SHANA: Okay, so the book that was not for me was The History of Love by Nicole Krauss, which I had been given as a gift years and years and years and years ago. And I was staying with my parents and it was on the bookshelf and I was like, "I should finally read this. It's been in my childhood bedroom for probably 15 years." And I read it and I just couldn't get into it. I couldn't connect with the characters. There's a lot of back and forth from points of view, but I just could not engage with it.

There's a little bit of a mystery element to it, and I'm not a mystery novel person. That is not my genre. I'm the daughter of two mystery novel readers who love it so much, and I just don't like it. I steer clear. I just couldn't connect. I kind of didn't care about anyone in the story. I did finish it, but I was sort of like, "All right." And I immediately donated it for someone else to read.

ANNE: That's done. Moving on.

SHANA: Yeah, exactly.

[00:29:16] ANNE: A lot of it is really interior, as I recall.

SHANA: It is a lot of interior and reflection. And doesn't cover a long time period but it's a long mental journey, I guess. That wasn't for me. I think I need a little more plot-driven.

ANNE: A little more plot. Okay, we will keep that in mind. What have you been reading lately?

SHANA: So I just finished two books. I read Shy: The Alarmingly Outspoken Memoirs of Mary Rodgers by Mary Rogers and Jesse Green and Caroline: Little House, Revisited by Sarah Miller.

ANNE: And how were those for you?

SHANA: It took me a little while, but I got really into Shy. It's kind of a difficult read to get started with because half of every page feels like footnotes because every person this woman interacted with her entire life is some sort of theater or music legend. I felt like I needed a good chunk of reading time to get started, to kind of find the rhythm of constantly looking down at the footnotes. But once I did, I really liked it.

[00:30:21] Mary Rogers has had sort of a crazy life. And I love musical theater and I love musical theater history. You know, she was very close to Stephen Sondheim. She also wrote Freaky Friday and her journey of moving away from being a musical theater composer in her dad's shadow to writing the book Freaky Friday. And sort of that journey for her was really interesting.

I felt kind of [inaudible 00:30:47] about Caroline: Little House Revisited, which I was really disappointed by because I was really looking forward to reading that book. I loved the Little House Book as a kid. And I didn't hate it, but it just kind of felt like it was... I was confused why she chose that specific point in the story to tell about Caroline.

What I did really like was the honest truth about traveling in a covered wagon with two kids under the age of six while being pregnant with another kid is not all glorious and patient. And Maya is such a kind figure in the books and the Little House series. It was kind of nice to get a realistic internal thought process about, "Yeah, I would be stressed too."

ANNE: I love that. So you are here for the realistic daily life detail in your books in general?

SHANA: Yes.

ANNE: Okay.

[00:31:37] SHANA: Yeah. My favorite childhood picture book growing up was called Mr. Bear's Chair. And in it, Mr. Bear builds a chair. That is the whole plot. But he goes to the wood and he cuts down a tree and he hammers and he saws and he chisels. And it's just how to build a chair, essentially. And I loved that book as a kid. I loved the little details of that. The talk about what tools he uses and that sort of something I gravitated to.

ANNE: I love that. Shana, what are you looking for in your reading life right now?

SHANA: I'm looking for a little bit of focus. I kind of don't know how to choose a book... I love historical fiction and I'd like to explore that more. I also would be interested in more books that have romance but are not romance novels. Because I do like reading about relationships and I love reading about people who connect but I think I need that to not be the only major plot point in the story.

I also would love to get back into some sci-fi fantasy and some guidance of how to do that, ideally with less problematic authors. I'm sort of open to anything.

[00:32:49] The only genre of book I don't like is the mystery novel, which I've learned. I was like, "Oh, the whole concept of this book is what I don't like." It's nothing about the author, it's nothing about the individual story. That genre is just... I don't know. I don't want to figure it out. I don't want... I don't know. It's not for me. But other than that, I'm really open and kind of just looking for some focus or somewhere to kind of get started.

ANNE: Well, that sounds fun. Okay, let's do this. So the books that you loved were Never Have Your Dog Stuffed: And Other Things I've Learned by Alan Alda, which I now feel like I need to read immediately, along with, if I understood you, but I have this look on my face, that book about communication sounds really interesting. But that's about what I think I may love. Not yours.

So you loved Never Have Your Dog Stuffed, Ender's Game, the first book you reread in your life by Orson Scott Card, and the Outlander entire series by Diana Gabaldon for the relationships, war stories, and medical stuff.

Not for You, The History of Love by Nicole Krauss. We think it may have been a little too interior, a little less plotty than the books that you have found that you enjoy. And you're looking really for historical fiction and sci-fi fantasy that you know you love. No mysteries. I heard that loud and clear. No mystery. We won't do it.

SHANA: Awesome.

[00:34:13] ANNE: And I really am remembering what you said about, like, you know, you like these genres, but that's not really enough to get started because there's so many out... They're huge genres. So what comes next? And also what you said especially about sci-fi fantasy reading, more contemporary and underrepresented voices. There's so much good stuff to choose from. And I think that you could rabbit trail with any of the books we're going to talk about today. Like one could easily lead you to another through Google or your library or Libby. Those recommendations for what to read next, I think will be in the right wheelhouse, especially for sci-fi fantasy.

SHANA: Amazing.

ANNE: There's so much we could do. But let's start with Susanna Kearsley if you haven't read her yet. Is this a familiar name?

SHANA: No.

ANNE: Great. I think that's wonderful news to meet new authors today. When you're looking to branch out, like that's the way they do it. She is a prolific historical fiction writer. Her stories often have a little bit of magic, otherworldliness to them as well, which you didn't explicitly call out an Outlander. But she's often recommended as a next read for those who have burned through Diana Gabaldon and need something else that kind of scratches that same itch to read next.

[00:35:25] I would recommend starting with The Winter Sea. It's about an author looking for her next story idea. So she goes to Scotland and she settles near the ruins of this gorgeous old castle to do her writing. She's drawing inspiration from her own family history and also the events she's been studying of the Jacobite uprising. But then interesting things of a time slip kind of nature start happening.

So the story features parallel storylines in the roughly present day and also back in the 1700s at this Slains Castle. There's a romantic subplot. So there's a love story in this novel that is not a romance. And it is not Outlander length. But there are three books in this series right now, and she's written a whole host of other ones. So I hope that can keep you happy for a while.

SHANA: No, that sounds great. I like all those things.

ANNE: I'm glad to hear it. That's Susanna Kearsley. For some contemporary sci-fi fantasy, have you read Iron Widow by Xiran Jay Zhao? Because I really think it sounds like it may have some of the elements you're looking for, especially since you've said you are okay with violence and grits and you love action-packed, fast-paced, high-stakes. Should we keep going?

SHANA: Yeah. I've never heard of this, but I'm already excited.

[00:36:46] ANNE: Okay, good, good, good. I'm so excited. This is a Canadian YA sci-fi fantasy novel. Actually, it just came out a couple of years ago. There is book two. I believe this is the planned duology. The second book is due out next April and it is called Heavenly Tyrants.

So I think what you want to know about this is the world. So it's been described as The Handmaid's Tale meets the Pacific Rim. It features a young adult protagonist... Although I've heard about this from adult readers who've read it and loved it. Sometimes you'll hear them say things like, "I don't read a lot of YA." But I've also heard great love for this book from a lot of adult readers who do read a lot of YA.

But this is a revenge story. There's a young female soon-to-be-warrior who is out to avenge her sister's wrongful death and inadvertently becomes the iron widow in the meantime. She goes to battle piloting a chrysalis, which is this giant mechanical alien war machine. And most women who inhabit the role in this war machine that she did die doing it and she did not. And that is noteworthy.

[00:38:03] But she is feisty. She can be mean. She doesn't care. She's out for revenge. She's out to show her people that women deserve better. And that aspect of her people is really important here. So this is a reimagining of the rise of a historic Chinese empress. But it's not historical fantasy, which we talked about today. This is a futuristic story set in a world that the author says is inspired by cultural elements from across Chinese history.

It features historical figures that are known, but they've been reimagined in just totally different life circumstances. They say like, "Hey, I took considerable creative liberties here, so buckle up and have some fun. We are writing fantasy." There's lots of jokes interspersed in the like really action-packed war scenes. I think you're really going to like the sensibility of this story, just like the broad it is and the message it is.

There's a love story in this as well. There's a love triangle, but a polyamorous love triangle. There's queer voices and rep in this story. You need to know that there is a big cliffhanger ending, and sometimes some readers don't know that's coming. That can be really unsatisfying. So know the next book comes out in April and plan your reading accordingly.

[00:39:18] SHANA: Okay, well, that sounds amazing. Although I'm very grateful for the heads up of the cliffhanger ending because I would probably be very upset. But it's good to know that there's another book on the way. I'm okay. As long as I know that there's something coming that's comforting enough for me. That sounds great.

ANNE: It's coming. There's another... I mean, how do you feel about another YA novel? I didn't expect to go so heavily YA.

SHANA: I'd be open to it. I don't read a lot of YA that I did not read previously as a young adult and am revisiting. But I'm not against it because I have friends who have recommended other YA novels that I have enjoyed. I feel like then they tend to have a good rhythm to them and they tend to move forward with a good tempo.

ANNE: Well, the reason I asked is there's a book... This was in the Summer Reading Guide, actually. It's by Rebecca Ross, woo, who also wrote A River Enchanted, which I would maybe recommend you take a look at. But she had this book come out in February. It's another YA duology opener. Though this next book the publication has been moved up and it comes out this fall.

[00:40:24] But the reason that I wanted to put this on your radar is that it has the feel of World War I historical fiction, but it's set in a world where there's a fantastical war between the gods. They're mythical monsters fighting. They're terrible things that happen when the sun goes down predictably every night. But also, it's got that feel of World War I historical fiction. So I feel like maybe this could be a twofer for you.

This is about two teens. Their names are Iris and Roman. They're both writers and they are fierce rivals. Thus the title Divine Rivals. They both want the same position in the newsroom at the Oath Gazette. And of course, they don't know anything about each other's respective hardships. But one of them gets their hands on a magical typewriter and starts writing letters that the other magically received.

So they develop this deepening friendship very rapidly, the way you do when you spell out your heart on an old typewriter while still kind of duking it out in real life. And then they both get sent to the front lines as war correspondents and adventures ensue. So it's a love story that's not a romance. Slow burning. I believe it's chaste. It's definitely closed door in this first book, but it's the genre-bender. It has broad appeal.

[00:41:41] If you feel like you have some catching up to do in the historical fiction and fantasy genres, maybe you could read one book and feel like you've spent some time in both. It's called Divine Rivals and it's by Rebecca Ross.

SHANA: Okay.

ANNE: And actually, that one really made me think of The Wild Hunt by Emma Seckel. So I'm just going to leave that title there for you.

SHANA: Okay.

ANNE: But Shana, while you were talking about Outlander and the medicine and the historical detail, I was put in mind of a novel that is coming out. I think the publication date just got moved back to the first week of December. The book is The Frozen River by Ariel Lawhon. She's an established historical fiction author. And this is the story inspired by the real-life Maine midwife Martha Ballard. She is historical. This is a novel, but I think you're going to love this.

So it's set over the course of one winter. It takes place while the river is frozen because the cold is so deep. I'm so sorry. There's a small mystery of sorts woven through the novel. It's not a mystery. It's not a mystery novel-

SHANA: That's okay.

ANNE: ...it will be okay. But here's why I think you're going to love it.

SHANA: Okay.

[00:43:00] ANNE: This is an invitation to look over Martha's shoulder as she goes about her work in the community of women in 17th-century Maine as she does her midwifery. The way she portrays this community of women... it's not that there aren't men there. But Martha moves through the women's world. And Martha is snarky and opinionated and capable. She has never lost a baby in all the hundreds of deliveries she's done.

Martha is a real badass in the way she interacts with the women and way the women speak about getting what they want and need even though that wasn't the loss or the ways of things back then, women were not full and equal in many ways. And that becomes a huge part of the story.

A man is found, as I recall, murdered in the very beginning of the story and Martha is called upon to give testimony. And I know with the medical details you really love, and I assure you this is a book about midwifery. There are plenty of medical details. But she's also called upon to give testimony at a trial. And there are tons of legal details as well. It was very unusual for women to be able to testify back then. She could do so in her role as a midwife. And how and why that works and what women can and cannot do is so interesting.

[00:44:27] I know I talked a lot about what women cannot do, but there's such a feminist vibe to this story and just truly the portrayal of the women supporting each other, though not always. That causes some friction obviously.

There are some love stories and flirtations woven through, and there are so many small, quotidian moments where a couple is having a conversation while they're washing up or unsettling the horses after a ride, or just like passing in the kitchen and just sharing a moment about what's going on with another family member. "Did you hear the gossip in town?" I think those ordinary moments combined with the big highlights of the story are going to really make this for you.

I'm sorry you need to wait till December, but I do think it's a really good fit for you, The Frozen River by Ariel Lawhon.

SHANA: Yeah. It sounds incredible. Every detail you gave, I was like, Yes, yes, yes. So I'll have to look up the publishing date. I have to put in my calendar and remind myself.

[00:45:28] ANNE: Put in your calendar. I like that. Okay. I don't want to say too much about the ending, but I will say it is dramatic and you're going to want to talk to somebody about it. Okay. That's all I'm going to say about that.

SHANA: Noted.

ANNE: Get a pal to read. Your mom loves Outlander. She's going to run out of those Outlander books. She's already reread them once. Get her to read this with you and you all can talk about it.

SHANA: And my mom's an OB-GYN, so-

ANNE: Noo!

SHANA: Oh, my gosh.

ANNE: She needs this book.

SHANA: Yeah, We'll do a read-along together. I think she'll love it.

ANNE: I can't wait to hear what you both think. Okay, Shana, the books we talked about today were Susanna Kearsley, the historical fiction author, particularly The Winter Sea, which is a great place to jump in, Iron Widow by Xiran Jay Zhao. Divine Rivals by Rebecca Ross. We mentioned one or two more, but we finished with The Frozen River by Ariel Lawhon. Of those books, what do you think you'll read next?

SHANA: Well, I have to wait for The Frozen River, but I think I'm going to read the Iron Widow. That was the first one that you went to that I was super excited about. I also love the idea of getting back into sci-fi. I do think ultimately it will be the New York Public Library's decision, which I read next.

ANNE: That is a trusted and proven method.

SHANA: Yes, I'm going to put in holds for both that and The Winter Sea first and see which becomes available first.

ANNE: That sounds amazing. I really enjoyed this. Thanks so much for talking books with me today.

SHANA: Thank you so much for having me. This was so much fun.

[00:47:01] ANNE: Hey readers, I hope you enjoyed my discussion with Shana, and I'd love to hear what you think she should read next. Find the full list of titles we talked about today at whatshouldireadnextpodcast.com. We would love to show up in your inbox with updates on the show. Make sure you're on the list to get our emails at whatshouldireadnextpodcast.com/newsletter.

Follow along for more bookish inspiration on Instagram. You can find me there at @annebogel, and the show is @whatshouldireadnext. Make sure you are following along in Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Overcast, wherever you get your podcasts. It is the easiest way to make sure you're first to see each week's new episode.

Thanks to the people who make this show happen. What Should I Read Next? is created each week by Will Bogel, Holly Wielkoszewski, and Studio D Podcast Production. Readers, that's it for this episode. Thanks so much for listening. And as Rainer Maria Rilke said, "Ah, how good it is to be among people who are reading." Happy reading, everyone.