Pitch perfect endings and laugh-out-loud rom coms

Anne Bogel [00:00:00] This prose is dense. She packs a lot of meaning into our short sentences, but every word matters. Is that terrifying?

Claire Handscombe [00:00:11] No.

Anne Bogel [00:00:19] Hey readers, I'm Anne Bogel and this is What Should I Read Next? Welcome to the show that's dedicated to answering the question that plagues every reader, what should I read next? We don't get bossy on the show. What we will do here is give you the information you need to choose your next read. Every week we'll talk all things books and reading and do a little literary matchmaking with one guest.

[00:00:49] Readers, now feels like a great time for a reminder that you can start a new habit or set a new goal anytime you want, not just on January 1st. If you're like me, and this month hasn't unfolded the way you thought it would, you can always start over again. Now is as good a time as any to pick up Don't Overthink It, my book about, you guessed it, overthinking.

Don't Over Think It came out the week the pandemic really hit the US in 2020. And you won't be surprised to hear it was a wee bit overshadowed by everything else happening back then. So it's been exciting to see it start to get a bit more book love lately. It's even been featured on a number of best books for the New Year lists. I truly believe there are life-changing ideas in here, some of which are small and easily achievable no matter what else is going on in your world.

If you want to make easier decisions, stop second-guessing, and bring more joy to your life in 2023, I hope you'll pick up Don't Overthink It. Check your library, if they don't have a copy ask them to purchase one. Pick up your own copy at your local indie or wherever you buy books online.

[00:01:45] Today I'm chatting with London-based Claire Handscombe. Claire is back in the UK after spending a decade in Washington DC, where she enjoyed what was hands down the best job she ever had as a bookseller. When Claire wrote into our show, our team at What Should I Read Next? HQ was intrigued by her special superpower. Claire can tell the difference between the US and UK edition of a book by its smell. Claire, I'm definitely interested in hearing more about that today.

Claire, usually or perhaps used to mostly enjoy literary fiction, contemporary YA, and romance. But like many of us, she has struggled with a short attention span lately. She's hoping for tips to help her ease back into reading the literary fiction she loves. And she's always on the lookout for romantic comedies that are truly laugh-out-loud funny. Today, I hope to give Claire ideas for comfortable feeling reads that will once again help her read what she wants to read. I'm excited to see where the conversation takes us. Let's get to it. Claire, welcome to the show.

Claire Handscombe [00:02:44] Thank you so much for having me. This is so exciting.

Anne Bogel [00:02:47] Oh, well, I'm so excited to talk with you today. Now, something that really shone through in your submission when you wrote into us was how much media has, in a very real way, shaped your life, starting with that move to DC from London. Would you take us back in time and tell us about that?

Claire Handscombe [00:03:02] Yeah. So, basically, in 2008, which is now so long ago, it's kind of ridiculous, I got a little bit obsessed with a TV show called The West Wing, which I'm sure many of your listeners have heard of.

Anne Bogel [00:03:14] I'm laughing because I've seen it three times. Yes.

Claire Handscombe [00:03:17] I mean, long story short, and I could go on for a long time, I ended up visiting DC and absolutely falling in love with DC. And at the same time, I was starting to write seriously again. And so I married the two and moved to DC to do an MFA in creative writing.

Anne Bogel [00:03:32] That is fascinating that the TV show influenced your writing life like that.

Claire Handscombe [00:03:36] Yeah, absolutely. And the first novel that I wrote, which, you know, I haven't done anything with, but it was actually set in DC. It was about a senator. And I didn't know what I was talking about back then, but that's kind of how much it influenced me.

Anne Bogel [00:03:49] Many writers find they write what interests them, not necessarily what they know about. So is this your way of writing to learn?

Claire Handscombe [00:03:55] Yeah, yeah. I mean, as a result of that, I read lots of books about American politics and I got into listening to loads of podcasts back in the early early days of podcasts. So there weren't that many around. But yeah, it definitely helped me learn about American politics, which then fed into my DC obsession, which then fed into me wanting to move there even more, which then made me want to write stuff set in DC. So it was a whole loop.

Anne Bogel [00:04:16] I hope that was a virtuous circle for you.

Claire Handscombe [00:04:19] Yes, definitely.

Anne Bogel [00:04:20] Well, there are so many amazing authors that I feel like I've been talking to and talking about recently, even here on the show, like Elizabeth Acevedo, Andrew Sean Greer, Brendan Slocumb, who are based in DC. I'd love to hear what captured you about the city. Because an intercontinental move, that is no joke. How [00:04:37] to DC when you over to that extent?

Claire Handscombe [00:04:40] I think coming from Europe, and especially London where the streets are so haphazard and everything kind of grew up organically, and it feels like nobody planned anything, it just kind of happened in this gigantic mess. If you're trying to find your way around London, it's a nightmare because there's no logic to it that I can see at least. And DC is so neatly planned out and beautiful and so it looks like a film set. Obviously, I had the filmic aspects in my head as well because of TV, but it just looks so aesthetically pleasing.

And walking around the streets and the kind of wide sidewalks and the beautiful monuments and all that kind of thing. I am not necessarily a big fan of the skyscraper vibe in many US cities, and DC doesn't have that at all. It just has these amazing buildings and this kind of very clean look. And it feels like a very clean city also, has great restaurants. The Kennedy Center is a huge favorite of mine.

I think what I really love about it is it has all the things I love about big cities without being big itself and without being overwhelming. And then of course it has the... I love politics. So it has all that vibe to it. I think one of the things I love about it too is it's one of the places where it's cool to be a nerd. I can't be skinny and blonde like the Californians, I can't be techie like the people in San Francisco, but I can be a nerd. So yeah, DC is the right place for me I think.

Anne Bogel [00:06:03] I'm so happy to hear it. On that note, and I probably don't need to stop and say we say nerd with great affection around here, you are among nerdy friends.

Claire Handscombe [00:06:14] Yes, of course, of course.

Anne Bogel [00:06:16] But I would love to hear more about how you fell into bookselling.

Claire Handscombe [00:06:19] So in 2019, I moved across town. I was living in Northwest DC and for various reasons, I ended up moving to Capitol Hill, actually just a few blocks from the Capitol. So very west wing, very film set. But for some reason, I didn't really want to be on Capitol Hill. I had really loved the neighborhood I lived in before and sort of was a bit grumpy that all my friends had moved to that end of town, and therefore it made sense for me to move, but I wasn't too into it, for some reason, which makes no sense to me looking back.

But there was a lovely bookshop in that part of town called East City Bookshop, and I remember grumpily crossing the road one day, it was February and it was cold, and I was miserable, and I thought to myself, "Well, maybe I can work there one day, and I suppose that'll make it worth it. And then lo and behold, a couple of weeks later, there was an ad and they were looking for booksellers. So I interviewed and I got the job, and it was wonderful.

It's a wonderful bookshop. It's very community-focused, lots of regular customers, regular dog customers, as well as humans, wonderful staff that I loved working with, lots of authors who came in a lot as well and sign their books and chatted to us, and the occasional famous person, the occasional famous baseball player. Sean Doolittle was, I wouldn't say irregular, but he puts in a few times. And few politicians and things like that. So yeah, I was there for three years, including two pandemic years, which, you know, they were different. I think I prefer the year before the pandemic, but it was a wonderful job.

Anne Bogel [00:07:44] That is understandable that you did. Claire, had you ever worked as a bookseller before?

Claire Handscombe [00:07:49] I worked briefly in a shop called WHSmith, which is kind of a bit like Hudson in that it's not... I wouldn't call it a bookshop. But it's sort of a news agents cum everything. And they do sell books, so I kind of leaned hard on that in my interview, but I wouldn't really call it a bookseller job.

Anne Bogel [00:08:07] As someone who often ends up, in my line of work, recommending books, putting books in readers' hands every day, I'd love to hear what you found to be the most important things about doing the work you do, connecting readers with the right book, finding the things they want to read, finding the things they don't even know they want to read when they're in the shop standing in front of you.

Claire Handscombe [00:08:26] This might sound a bit weird, but I probably took a bit of inspiration from you, actually, Anne, because I always asked them what books they liked, you know, what recent books they really enjoyed, and also then why. Because as you know, just saying you like a book doesn't really tell you very much because maybe they like the plot, maybe they like the characters, maybe they like the setting, maybe it's the vibe. There's like a million different things. So that's part of it.

We talked a bit in my shop too about trying to recommend two books that feel like a good match and then one that stretches a little bit. So it's maybe a little bit different from what they've asked for but still vaguely in the domain, but pushes their boundaries a little bit. So that's part of it. And then, of course, making sure that the recommendations are diverse, that we're not just recommending, you know, books by rich white people. So making sure that there's a nice varied selection.

I think one of the challenges I have is stopping because I can just keep recommending books, you know? Especially if somebody asked for something that's very in my wheelhouse, I can just keep bringing them books. And actually, that's a bit overwhelming. Stopping at a few is probably better, but that's hard for me because I get very enthusiastic.

Anne Bogel [00:09:35] That's so interesting that you were encouraged to recommend two that felt like a good match and one that was a stretch. I really liked that policy.

Claire Handscombe [00:09:44] Yeah, it's definitely a good tip that I picked up there.

Anne Bogel [00:09:47] Claire, how does this time of your life impact your reading life? How are you still feeling those effects of the time you spend in DC?

Claire Handscombe [00:09:54] Well, I think it started before I moved in that I started reading everything I could find that was set in DC, every kind of novel, whether it was a thriller or romantic comedy, or... Actually, there aren't that many romantic comedies set in DC, but there are a couple if you look very hard. So I got quite varied about the DC thing. But then once I was there, obviously, I was less obsessed with reading about being there because I was there.

And then I was doing an MFA. So I had to read a lot of literary fiction, which I discovered some really amazing books that I'm not sure I would have ever read otherwise, books I've actually never heard other people talk about, like We Sinners by Hanna Pylväinen, which is an amazing novel and short stories about a family that belongs to a fundamentalist religion and how each member decides to stay or leave. And it's a wonderful book, which I don't think I would have known about without my MFA. So we read loads of great books.

And then because we were reading all this literary fiction, I also needed a little bit of light relief. So I would pick up some of that from time to time to break up my Crime and Punishment type reading with something a little bit more fun. I was in the middle of Crime and Punishment when I read a book called The List by Karin Tanabe. I don't know if you know that book.

Anne Bogel [00:11:02] I do. Although it's been a long time. That might have been her first one.

Claire Handscombe [00:11:06] Yes, it was. It was 2013, so which I suppose is now 10 years ago nearly, which is crazy. And she's a DC-based author. And she wrote this book based on her time working for Politico, which of course, the West Wing fun that I am loves that. So I went and I ended up becoming friends with Karin. So that was a wonderful experience. And it was a great way to break up... I think it was Crime and Punishment I was reading. So little bit of variety.

And then, yeah, in later years, with the pandemic and everything, I have been more into reading... Well, a) reading the backlist I wanted to read rather than being obsessed with reading what's coming out right this minute. And then also reading happier books, lighter books, books that didn't feel like they were a stretch. I just wanted comfort and ease. I did not need any extra sources of stress in my life. So reading needed to be completely pleasurable.

Anne Bogel [00:11:58] I want to go back for just a moment. What is your favorite and also first that comes to mind, book you recommend that's set in Washington, DC?

Claire Handscombe [00:12:08] Oh my gosh, that's such a hard question because there are so many.

Anne Bogel [00:12:11] Go with your gut, Claire.

Claire Handscombe [00:12:13] So one book that I read before I moved to DC is called Sammy's House, and it's written by Kristin Gore, who is Al Gore's daughter. Have you heard of that one already?

Anne Bogel [00:12:23] No, I don't know this one.

Claire Handscombe [00:12:25] So it's kind of pitched as West Wing meets Bridget Jones. And that is actually a pretty accurate description. This is a few years ago, and Bridget Jones was a little bit more sort of off the moment. And it's just this fun story about a hill staffer who wanders around DC finding lab and having mishaps and things like that.

It's quite hard to find now. I think it might be out of print, but it is around and I think it might be available as an eBook. But I did really enjoy that. And it's sort of the kind of book that I would really like to be able to read. DC felt quite different back then and certainly felt quite different as someone who was reading about DC and daydreaming about DC as opposed to living its reality. But you know, pre-2016 and even pre-2008 I think it was a very different place. So that book was light-hearted in a way that I don't know if you could write about DC like that now. But I really enjoyed reading about it.

Anne Bogel [00:13:21] Well, I'm happy to learn about it. Claire, you've moved from London to DC and back again. At what point did you realize you had a special superpower?

Claire Handscombe [00:13:31] I think I was at church and they passed around paperback. So I was at church in the US and I smelled it because that's what I do when someone hands me a book is I smell it. And I thought, "That's weird, this smells like a British book." And I was right. Even though I was in America and it looked like an American book, I was correct. But it was printed in the UK. So that might have been the moment when I realized it was an actual superpower.

When I landed at the airport at Heathrow, there's the terminal that most of the flights land in has a WHSmiths, which is one of those mini book shops right next to arrivals. And so there was one year when I ran straight to arrivals literally to smell the books because they smell different from the US. In fact, my friend had come to pick me up at the airport and I didn't see her because I ran straight to the books. So that might have been another seminal moment.

Anne Bogel [00:14:27] Is it characteristic of your life and perhaps your reading life that your senses are involved in the whole process?

Claire Handscombe [00:14:34] I think maybe it is. One of my favorite things to do is read on the beach, and that always comes with a memory of having my feet in the sand. So I think that maybe that's part of it. And also the smell of sun cream. All those are kind of very much linked with those fun beach reads that I often read. I know a beach read is any book you take to the beach, but I have a specific kind of book that I take to the beach. And you know, sun cream, sun, things like that definitely reminds me of it.

And then also back in DC I had this sofa that I really liked and it had this lovely soft kind of feel, and again, I would lie on there and read. And yeah, definitely part of it was feeling it under my legs because it was so soft, especially in the summer when your legs are shaved and soft. Anyway, this might be more information than your listeners need. But yes. I think the answer is yes, many of my senses are involved.

Anne Bogel [00:15:27] Now that I imagine your apartment has a variety of books from multiple countries, do they retain their smell? Do your American books still smell American?

Claire Handscombe [00:15:36] Yes. Well, it depends. Some of the smells... I'm gonna get really detailed here. Do you remember the book Rodham by Curtis Sittenfeld?

Anne Bogel [00:15:46] I do.

Claire Handscombe [00:15:47] That had an amazing smell in hardback.

Anne Bogel [00:15:50] That's so strange, Claire.

Claire Handscombe [00:15:52] I know. I'm sorry. That was the American one.

Anne Bogel [00:15:54] I would ask you to describe it. But how could you do that?

Claire Handscombe [00:15:56] Yeah, I was hoping you wouldn't ask me that because I don't really describe smells in words. Or at least the smell of books. But yeah, I bought it and read it immediately because I was like, "Oh, if I don't read it immediately, it might lose the smell." And you know, a few months later, it had kind of lost the smell. Another one that smelled really good was The Voting Booth by Brandy Colbert, I think her name is.

Anne Bogel [00:16:20] I'm so disappointed to say I read that on Kindle.

Claire Handscombe [00:16:23] Oh, no, but it smelled so good.

Anne Bogel [00:16:25] I didn't know what I was missing.

Claire Handscombe [00:16:26] But only the hardback. I don't think the paperback smell particularly remarkable. But the paperback smelled incredible. And it was a great book as well so. But I'm sure the smell partly contributed to me loving it. And actually, that one had one of these kind of... A lot of American covers feel a little bit rougher to the touch than British ones do. And that one had one of those as well. So I really love that texture of cover. So that also had that going for it.

Anne Bogel [00:16:52] That's so interesting. Because many of the books I read here in the US in prints are published in China. Is that also the case in the UK?

Claire Handscombe [00:16:59] Oh, that's a good question. I'm not actually sure. I want to say probably not. Otherwise, why would they smell different? Because it kind of implies that they're using different ink and different glue because that's really what books smell of, right, ink and glue and paper.

Anne Bogel [00:17:11] Well, being an insecure American, I assumed maybe we opted for the cheaper stuff than the Brits did when we put in our orders.

Claire Handscombe [00:17:19] Well, I don't know because the other thing that's interesting is that books or paperbacks at least are much more expensive in the US than they are in the UK. But then I don't know how much markup there is. So who knows!

Anne Bogel [00:17:30] Okay, listeners if you have answers, we are so curious. Maybe we'll do an investigative reporting style of What Should I Read Next?. But meanwhile, I am daydreaming about our What Should I Read Next? live show where we're going to have a few lucky audience participants get to play a game where they guess where was this book published. I don't know. Do you think that'd be fun for an audience, Claire? Is that more like living room material?

Claire Handscombe [00:17:54] I could be fun. I mean, I would love to do that. But I don't know how many other weirdos are out there like me.

Anne Bogel [00:18:02] I hope there are a lot of weirdos out there. They're my favorite.

Claire Handscombe [00:18:05] One of the surprising things about being a bookseller is I kind of assumed that everybody would be a book sniffer. I sort of thought, "I'm among my kind now. Everybody does this." But they kind of all laughed at me because I did always smell things. My boss, Laurie, who owns a shop, would often kind of have a little snicker at me because I was burying my nose in all these books. It was hard when we were all wearing masks and couldn't do it as quite as easily. It sort of took the pleasure of shelving away a little bit.

Anne Bogel [00:18:32] Oh, I'm so sorry. What times we live in! Claire, thank you for discussing your secrets with us. We're grateful.

Claire Handscombe [00:18:42] Any time.

Anne Bogel [00:18:43] Claire, I'm really excited to talk about some of the things plaguing you and your reading life these days and also helping put good books may be too comfortable reads and one stretch on your radar that you may enjoy reading next. And as we do that, I would first love to hear what your taste specifically is like. Are you ready to dig in?

Claire Handscombe [00:19:02] Absolutely, yes.

Anne Bogel [00:19:04] Okay. Claire, I know you know how this works because you clued me into the fact that you had submitted to be on the show multiple times and the timing just had not been right until today. But I really enjoyed going back and seeing the history of the highlights of your reading life unfold and your series of submissions that you sent in beginning in June 2016. Thank you for believing in us back then. Do you remember what you chose back then?

Claire Handscombe [00:19:29] Wow, you told me before the show that I put Sweetbitter by Stephanie Danler. That was something I was reading at the time.

Anne Bogel [00:19:36] I did.

Claire Handscombe [00:19:36] I think one of the books I'm going to talk about today has probably featured in most if not all of my submission forms.

Anne Bogel [00:19:44] You are correct.

Claire Handscombe [00:19:45] Can I say what it is?

Anne Bogel [00:19:48] Oh, actually two books are the same as they were in June 2016.

Claire Handscombe [00:19:53] So I'm gonna guess Come to the Edge by Christina Haag was probably on both.

Anne Bogel [00:19:57] It was.

Claire Handscombe [00:19:57] Was the other one One Day by David Nicholls?

Anne Bogel [00:20:02] It is.

Claire Handscombe [00:20:04] The only reason the third one wasn't on that one is because it hadn't been published yet then.

Anne Bogel [00:20:08] Oh, that's so interesting. Well in 2016 then the title you chose that apparently got unseated by the book you're going to share with us today was The Time Traveler's Wife by Audrey Niffenegger.

Claire Handscombe [00:20:18] Oh, I do love that book. I still love that book. I need to do a reread.

Anne Bogel [00:20:23] I'm glad to hear it. And you did say back then that you did deeply love the West Wing and reading about political shenanigans. You also said sometimes you read in French and Spanish, which is very impressive.

Claire Handscombe [00:20:33] Thank you. Well, my mom was French, so I don't know if I can take that much credit and I studied Spanish, so yeah. I haven't read in Spanish for quite a long time, though. I'm not gonna take too much credit on that one.

Anne Bogel [00:20:44] I'm glad that you put it down in 2016. And back then the book that was not for you was The Sound and the Fury by William Faulkner.

Claire Handscombe [00:20:51] Yes, I had to read that for school. And I... Ah, yes.

Anne Bogel [00:20:59] I think your tone says it all. Claire, I'm excited for the 2023 update on these picks. And you clearly know how this works. So I get to hear about three books you love, one you don't today, and what you've been reading lately, and we'll talk about what you may enjoy reading next. Claire, let's begin with those old favorites. Tell me about Come to the Edge by Christina Haag.

Claire Handscombe [00:21:19] So come to the edge is a memoir of which I read not that many. I'm quite selective in what I read. But this one had a tangential West Wing connection. Very tangential. And so I picked it up. And it's the story of Christina Haag, the author and her longtime friendship and relationship with John Kennedy Jr.

But if you're thinking is a celebrity tell-all and a little bit salacious, nothing could be further from the truth. It is incredibly well written. It almost... I don't want to say that it doesn't matter who he is, because obviously, it matters to the story and to how it all unfolds. But in terms of those intense feelings of the first love, the kind of big love of your life, the one who got away, or that kind of thing, it almost doesn't matter who he is. Those of us who've been in love or recognize those big feelings that it talks about and described.

And she just writes so poetically and so elegantly. And she writes about him, but she also writes about New York and about the art of being an actress, and about growing up and going to college and all those big experiences of sort of teen life and early 20s life. And it's just a beautiful, beautiful book, and of course, very bittersweet, which is one of the things I love best about reading is that bittersweet ending.

Anne Bogel [00:22:31] I'm not familiar with this book, and I certainly didn't recognize it as being a memoir when you put it down. That sounds fascinating.

Claire Handscombe [00:22:38] Yeah, it's great. And I think the hardback cover was much better. It was much more in keeping with the tone of the book. It's this lovely picture of the two of them together and it's got nice colors and it's very evocative. But the paperback is a shirtless picture of John Kennedy Jr. So it looks like a salacious tell-all. And it sort of makes me a bit angry because that's not at all the tone of the book. So yeah.

So whenever I hand it to people, which I did do, I did do that at East City bookshop, and I did have some people come and tell me, "You were so right. It was so good," which is the best compliment. And I always have to tell them, like, "Ignore the cover. It's not what it looks like." Which makes me a little bit sad because the original cover was so much better.

Anne Bogel [00:23:17] That can be so frustrating when it feels like you have to explain away the book's own marketing so that readers can understand what kind of story they're getting in for.

Claire Handscombe [00:23:25] Yeah.

Anne Bogel [00:23:25] Okay. I'm glad as a bookseller, you knew you were able to do that for your readers.

Claire Handscombe [00:23:30] Yeah, it's the best thing recommending a book that you love that you know not many people have heard of, and you know that person. You know, I didn't force it on everyone. It was if I thought that person would enjoy it it's just the best feeling.

Anne Bogel [00:23:42] I'm glad to hear it. Claire, tell me about One Day by David Nicholls, a book that I know we've talked about here on What Should I Read Next?.

Claire Handscombe [00:23:50] So one of the things that's interesting about being a Brit who's worked in an American bookshop is seeing what books are huge in the UK but don't really get as much attention in the US. And I would say that One Say definitely falls under that category. It was massive when it came out in the UK. There are a lot of writers sort of my age who kind of consider it as their model, "This is how you write a love story, this is how you write about an evolving friendship. I want to write like this. I definitely feel like if I could write anything like that I would be very happy." And yet in the US people have heard of it and they've maybe seen the film, but it doesn't quite have the same traction. And I find that quite interesting.

[00:24:29] So yeah, One Day for the listeners that don't know is the story of Dax and Emma who meet on the last day of university in I think the late 80s. And then it follows their friendship and their kind of character development over the next 20 years or so. And obviously, there's a big "well, won't they?" situations. Sometimes they're together, sometimes they're not. And you don't really know how they're going to end up.

And it does this great job of describing them as characters and also describing the changing society and specifically changing British society, which might be why it has more traction in the UK because we recognize a lot of those cultural markers more easily, I suppose. Although some of the cultural markers are very similar to the US. But yeah, I suppose the transition between, you know, the Margaret Thatcher years and the Tony Blair years, things like that, would be more recognizable to people in the UK. But certainly, the kind of universal love story and the universal recognition of likable and unlikable characters and things like that would be just as easily loved by people in the US I think.

Anne Bogel [00:25:32] That's so interesting. I don't think I realized the discrepancy between the book's popularity in the US and the UK, because this book was recommended to me by a writer here in the United States who said, "Anne, you have to read this." The structure is really interesting because the story unfolds only on... I think it's July 15.

Claire Handscombe [00:25:49] It is, yes.

Anne Bogel [00:25:50] Across many, many years, but also for the love story it tells.

Claire Handscombe [00:25:55] Yeah, I think the structure is fascinating. And it's done so well. Because of course, on some years, nothing much happens on the 15th. But it's kind of an excuse to go back to the previous year and to catch us up on what's happened. And then some years a lot happens on that day. It's a really interesting structure. And I kind of envy that he thought of it before I do.

Anne Bogel [00:26:13] You mentioned that you loved the bittersweet ending. That definitely feels right for this book as well.

Claire Handscombe [00:26:19] Yes.

Anne Bogel [00:26:20] Now, Claire, I'm excited to hear what you chose for your 2023 third and final favorite.

Claire Handscombe [00:26:26] I read this during... I think it was 2020 or early 2021. So in the thick of things being quite stressful and nothing much was holding my attention. But I picked up The Idea of You by Robinne Lee and I could not put it down. Sort of lay on that lovely sofa reading it for hours.

It's about a mom who takes her daughter to a pop concert. They have backstage passes and they go backstage, and she meets one of the members of the boy band and the mum falls madly in love with him and they start this torrid love affair. So you've got this massive age gap between the mom and one of the boy band members. It is not based on Harry Styles, but it's that vibe. And the daughter can't ever know because she'd be mortified, obviously. So there's kind of that element of it this kind of forbidden love secret love. They're forever meeting in all kinds of foreign locations and doing glamorous things and going to gallery openings because she's a gallery owner.

And it's about aging and motherhood and love. I've seen it described as a romantic comedy and there is nothing wrong with a romantic comedy, I absolutely love romantic comedies, but this is not that. I think that the idea of you is literary fiction. It's incredibly well-written, deals with all kinds of interesting themes, does not have a standard romantic comedy ending. People discuss this endlessly. Personally, I think the ending is perfect. I don't want a sequel. I love it as it ends. But yeah, I absolutely just love this book.

And it has a rabid following. There's a Facebook group just for fans of this book. So I know I'm not the only one. Plus the author Robinne Lee is absolutely lovely as well. She engages with her fans and is really kind to us. That's amazing.

Anne Bogel [00:28:08] I've seen this book. I've heard it described as the sleeper hit of the pandemic, but I haven't read it yet. Now I'm so intrigued.

Claire Handscombe [00:28:14] You haven't read it? Oh, you must read it. It's so good.

Anne Bogel [00:28:17] That sounds delightful. Okay, Claire, what do you think it is about books that prominently featured a love story that makes it seemingly impossible for the industry to describe them as literary fiction?

Claire Handscombe [00:28:28] Oh, I'm a little bit cynical about the publishing industry. I should say that upfront. But I think part of it might be marketing, because romantic comedy is selling well, or romance, I should say in general is selling well, especially with the kind of covers that have been common for the last few years that, you know, cute cartoon covers, which personally I really like. And they look great on Bookstagram and everything. But there's obviously been a whole rebranding. And that has kind of met the moment where a lot of people did want to read happy books, and they didn't want to read happy endings. And so I think romance is really having a moment and publishers want to cash in on that. So I think there's an element of that.

There's also an element probably of, well, you know, women are reading these things. And sometimes people take what women like a little bit less seriously than the standard male. For some reason, I want to say Bret Easton Ellis, but there are lots of authors in that vein, which somehow are sort of taken more seriously.

Anne Bogel [00:29:26] Okay, well, I'll just put those thoughts in my pocket and see if that informs the kinds of books that I may think you may enjoy reading next. Claire, tell me about the book that's not right for you right now.

Claire Handscombe [00:29:36] So I thought long and hard about this question. This is always a really difficult one, especially for writers because you don't want to be mean to other writers, which is one of the reasons I had to pick the Simon the Theory because he's dead and it's fine. But yes, I'm going to have to say Beautiful World, Where Are You? by Sally Rooney because I figure her sales are probably not going to be that negatively impacted by my by mentioning it.

Anne Bogel [00:30:00] Just a slight thing.

Claire Handscombe [00:30:02] I'm gonna preface this by saying I really liked Normal People. I don't think I thought it was the revelation that some people did. But you know, I enjoyed it. I think I even put it as one of my top 10 reads that year.

But Beautiful World, Where Are You?, well, this is a me thing, but one of the things about it is one of the main characters is a very, very successful novelist. And oh, it's so hard being a successful novelist. And oh, the pressures of being a successful, rich novelist, it's so difficult. And when you've been plugging away your craft for like over a decade and not really having much success, it's kind of hard to read that. So that's not Sally Rooney's fault. That's just where I am in my life.

But then also—I have to say this is a minor thing, but I suppose it all feeds back to what I was saying before about sensory things—her lack not only of speech marks but also of paragraph breaks. So you have pages and pages of just blocks of text. And I found that difficult as well. But also in the more kind of substantive part of it, while I really enjoyed the rants about capitalism, totally cosign on all of them, agree with them 100%, the book is written with emails between some of the characters. And so those are the rants about capitalism.

I just don't know that they belonged in the novel. And I think that if she hadn't been Sally Rooney, her editor would have cut them. So all of those things together means that I never finished that book, even though it was one of the big books of the year. And I really wanted to like it, but I just wasn't able to finish it.

Anne Bogel [00:31:30] That's so interesting. We were kind of teasing about impacting Sally Rooney sales, and readers, we need you to know that every week when a guest describes a book they don't like, a whole lot of readers sit up and say, "But that sounds perfect for me." And we're trying to match the right reader with the right book. And this was not the right book for you. That's so interesting.

I've only read 10 pages of Beautiful World, Where Are You?. And it's because I started reading it in order to chat with Lexi Hayes who was in Episode 353, Sad Girl Lit Fic and other burnout busters, which the comment section on Modern Mrs. Darcy on that is amazing with so many people saying, "This is totally my jam. Here are my favorites, and here's what I want to read next." So, readers, there's a hot tip for you.

[00:32:11] But I started reading that and Instagrammed that I was, and a whole bunch of people, Claire, said "Anne, that is not the right place to start. It's not representative of her earlier work. You want to read Normal People. It's the best." So obviously, Lexi chose Beautiful World, Where Are You? as her favorite, is the one she loved most. Still, that was my little taste of Sally Rooney. I didn't know that there weren't any paragraph breaks in that book, though. I hadn't picked that up in just the first few pages.

Claire Handscombe [00:32:35] There are some I think. But the point where I stopped I was in the middle of a chapter where it was literally just pages and pages without any breaks. And of course, you don't have the dark because you don't have speech marks, you don't have breaks there either. I think I also needed new glasses at that point in my life. So I just needed like a bit more sort of space and bigger fonts and things like that.

Anne Bogel [00:32:57] It's interesting to know what readers do stylistically that's a little off the beaten path and how that impacts us as readers. I'm definitely willing to try new things and to see how those stylistic choices serve the story. And also, I'm remembering how you said in your submission that you are really struggling with your attention span right now and maybe short chapters is the kind of thing that's really going to work for you. And it does sound like no paragraph breaks is the antithesis of what you feel like maybe your reading life needs right now.

Claire Handscombe [00:33:27] Definitely.

Anne Bogel [00:33:28] Okay. Well, no wonder that wasn't a good match. Claire, what have you been reading lately?

Claire Handscombe [00:33:32] So I'm currently reading The Daydreams by Laura Hankin, which is out next year I think in April. It's about a group of teens who were in a TV show, and now they're not teens anymore, they're grownups. And they reuniting, think about 10 years later or 15 years later to sort of do a, you know, reuniting show or finale, whatever you want to call it. And it's sort of their show ended in absolute epic disaster. They all fell out with each other. We don't know why at the beginning. It's kind of gradually unfolding.

I'm about halfway through. It's one of these books that alternates between present and past. I'm really enjoying it, which is a relief because Laura Hankin is actually one of our regulars at East City Bookshop, and she became a friend. And so it was a relief when your friend's book is good. But yeah, I'm really enjoying that I got an advanced copy. Thanks, to NetGalley.

[00:34:22] And then just before that, I read Nora Goes Off Script, which I absolutely loved. It's probably the best book I read all year. At least the best book for me. Really well written about Hollywood, which is another one of my sort of catnip-type themes. Love story, but again, a really well-written love story. I cried, I laughed. There were some kids in it, but their kids were well written, which I think is sometimes a bit of a challenge for writers to write kids that aren't overly precocious, feel like real kids, but also weren't annoying. I think they were really well written. And so yeah, I loved that book. So those are probably my twos and ones.

Anne Bogel [00:35:00] I'm so glad to hear it. Claire, what do you want to be different in your reading life right now?

Claire Handscombe [00:35:05] So I would like to laugh more when I'm reading, partly because I'm writing a rom-com and so I need to get into that vibe. But also partly, you know, as we speak, it's December. I'm in London. It's gray. It's dark. It's not very sparkly and fun outside right now, and I could do with some sparkly fun in my life.

So I would really love to have some good laughs with some romance, although it doesn't have to be romance. But I find that a lot of rom-coms are marketed as rom-coms or as hilarious rom-coms. And in fact, maybe I smiled twice. So I'd really love to laugh. And then I'd love to find some more sort of literary love stories or literary fiction in general that is well written but easy to read—you don't have to kind of stop and be like, "Oh, that's a beautiful sentence." I love that kind of reading but it's just not where I am right now.

Anne Bogel [00:35:56] Claire, duly noted on the laugh-out-loud books. Oh, that's so hard, because this can be so particular to reader's taste. And yet, it's good to clearly hear what it is that you know you enjoy, especially during a London winter. And Claire, I'm also really intrigued by your desire to read more literary fiction. I'd love to hear what kind of books you have in mind. And I know this is hard to describe. It may be helpful to also say like, what are you hoping to achieve in your reading life? Wow, that sounds really goal-oriented and I don't mean to hint at that. But what is it that's attractive to you right now about reading more literary?

Claire Handscombe [00:36:33] I want to forget that I'm reading, if that makes sense. I want to just be so caught up in the story that I'm not thinking about my phone, I'm not thinking, "Oh, this is a great turn of phrase." Although maybe that's impossible. Maybe I will always think that little bit. But I want to just forget that time is passing, you know, it's going dark outside and I don't even notice because I'm so caught up in my book. I want that kind of feeling and I feel like I haven't had it very much over the last few years. And I definitely would like that back.

Anne Bogel [00:37:03] Help me understand this more. Because you can maybe get that from a romance novel or a contemporary YA.

Claire Handscombe [00:37:09] Yes, I definitely get that from contemporary YA. Well, I can give you some examples if that's helpful.

Anne Bogel [00:37:14] Yes, let's hear the examples.

Claire Handscombe [00:37:16] I think what I mean is sort of elegant, but not pretentious. So Brett Bennett's writing is a great example of that. I absolutely loved The Mothers and the kind of way that the Greek chorus like mothers from the church kept reappearing. It was just really well written and an interesting play on form, but without feeling like I needed to go back and reread it three times to really understand it.

Maggie Shipstead I really love her writing. Astonish Me was a great book about ballet, which is another one of my subjects I love reading about. Yeah, it's very hard to describe History fiction, because I want to say, Oh, it's the stuff that comes out in hardback," but then I'm just falling back into the marketing tropes, which I just said I wasn't into. So yeah, it's hard to say really.

Anne Bogel [00:38:02] Claire, as I stare at my notebook and make my final decisions for what I think might be worth a try for you, I'd love to hear more about your attention span struggles of late.

Claire Handscombe [00:38:13] So I think I have the same struggles as almost everyone else, which is that I'm addicted to my phone. It's never very far from me. In fact, I use an app, I think it's called Bookly, that records how long it takes for me to read pages. Which as I'm saying it out loud, I'm like, "Why do I do that? That's such a strange thing to do." But I think I like knowing how much more of the book I have to read and how much I've read and things like that.

So because of that, or at least that's the reason I give myself, "Oh, I have to have my phone right here because I'm typing my reading," which I don't really need to do. But I think we're all addicted to our phones. So that's part of it. And I think I've just moved back to London. Now I've got a lot going on in my head just in terms of stress stuff and decisions I need to make and things like that. And so it's easy for me to be half thinking about that stuff. So if a book is a little bit harder to get into because the prose is really dense or if the story isn't really capturing my imagination, then it's too easy for me to think about the other stuff that I'm thinking about in life. And by contrast, when I'm scrolling TikTok, weirdly, I'm not thinking about that other stuff. So then that feels like an easy thing to do. So yeah.

[00:39:25] I was actually just listening to the episode that just came out where you were talking to a guest about the easy reading and the hard reading and how you need to balance those in life. And I just thought it was how we reach for our phones because it's an easy thing to do with our free time. And I want to reach for my books more. I don't know if that helps.

Anne Bogel [00:39:47] That does help. Now, on your submission, Claire, you said, "I'm not sure what Anne can tell me. I know I need to put my phone down. This is everybody's problem and it's not just mine." So I'm not going to focus on the things that it sounds like you already are aware of and are kind of contemplating what strategies you might implement around things like your phone usage. But I am wondering what time of day you often read.

Claire Handscombe [00:40:10] That's really interesting because actually the guests I was listening to this morning was talking about reading first thing. I don't tend to do that, mostly because I get up a little bit too late and so I feel bad if I also read most before getting on with my day. Mostly I read at night, which is good because it helps me wind down. It also means I'm in bed with my phones right next to me. Yes, phone's pillow, I did say that. So, yeah, I don't know. I like to read in the afternoon but I haven't done that in a while. So I've tried various things. But at the moment I'm in the evening mostly.

Anne Bogel [00:40:49] Okay, that's good to know. And also, it sounds like you're exploring other... Oh, I hate to say strategies, because it sounds, again, so goal-oriented. But it sounds like you might be interested in exploring other ways that might work. And something that you might be able to experiment with that you haven't yet is what time of day you end up reading, whether that means you give yourself permission to start your day with a quick little read. To interrupt myself, I do wonder if telling yourself you're just going to read for 10 minutes will be okay. Because you can definitely go 10 minutes without checking your phone.

Claire Handscombe [00:41:20] Yes, I can probably go 10 minutes.

Anne Bogel [00:41:22] Probably. You can probably go 10 minutes without checking your phone. But I do wonder if you could start the day with a book, if you could give yourself an afternoon tea time and read a chapter or two. You like short chapter. So maybe you want to read five with a cup of tea, maybe starting touch earlier in the evening, if you can. Now, if your phone is bringing you joy, we could live with that. But it does sound like reading more instead of opting for the device is something that you would find really satisfying.

Claire Handscombe [00:41:52] Yeah, yeah, because there are so many good books in the world and I want to read as many as possible of them. So yes.

Anne Bogel [00:42:00] And I think that's another secret to it. Well, not secret. I think many of us know this, that when you have books you're really looking forward to reading, it's a lot easier to opt for that instead of your phone.

Claire Handscombe [00:42:12] Yes, that's definitely true. And not to keep going on about the episode I listened to today, but your guests was talking about how if you're reading a book that you're not enjoying, you're not just not reading another book, you're also probably not reading as much because you don't want to read that book. You're secretly like, "I could read but I don't like that book. So I'm going to do something else."

So you're actually sort of eating in to quite a lot of books that you could be reading. Because you know, right now if I have some time, I do pick up The Daydreams because I'm enjoying it. I'm reading it on my Kindle, which I don't like as much, technically don't like as much. And yet, somehow there's something easy about picking it up. And I take it on the tube with me and things like that, because I can and it's easy, because I'm also weird about my books. I like them to look like they haven't been read basically, even though I make notes inside in pencil. But spine has to look unbroken and all that so that makes it difficult for carrying them around. But I do prefer paperbacks to sort of eBooks. It's a complicated thing.

Anne Bogel [00:43:14] Well, I'm glad that you're able to read it in whatever format that is. It's good to know your preferences. And also that having a book that's not maybe your top choice of format is not going to stop you from reading. Listeners, I want you to know the episode we're talking about is with Laura Vanderkam. It's 359. It's called Making big reading goals a reality.

[00:43:31] Claire, listening to your talk about your current challenge with staying invested in your book and not reaching for your phone, especially what you said about not having the opposite problem with TikTok, not putting down TikTok is not a problem, just made me think of something I experienced in my own life. And I'm just going to share this wondering if it might give you some insight into yours.

So I am a nervous flier. I promise this relates. And even though I love to read two hours of reading time on a flight is not welcome to me. Like I don't feel like it's mentally stimulating enough to distract me in the way I want to be distracted. So on takeoff, it's usually like 2048 and podcasts because I want to just overwhelm my senses so that I can't look away, and then in flight it's often watching a show, which does hold my attention a little more. And I know the reason that I want to do this is because I am actively feeling anxious, feeling nervous. Like I want to be taken out of my present reality.

[00:44:32] And since we've acknowledged here that like the past few years have been really stressful for a lot of people that you imagine that stress in your own life is impacting your reading life and perhaps this is why, I wonder if it might be helpful to consider if it's not just habits, it's not just that you're accustomed to picking up your phone, but that like stuff is hard and this is a natural human response. And I wonder if being able to truly assess, "Okay, this is why I'm doing this thing" could help you very you consciously decide if you want to go with that, if you want to do something else. I think sometimes just being able to tell her body like, "Oh, totally understand" makes logical sense. This is the path we're going to take." No matter what path you decide to take could help you actually make an active decision instead of get carried along by the path of least resistance.

Claire Handscombe [00:45:20] That's very wise. I like it.

Anne Bogel [00:45:23] Well, that's very kind. And I'd be interested to hear what upon reflection you decide, like rings true to you.

Claire Handscombe [00:45:31] I think it's so interesting, because with books obviously you see the pages turn, or the little percentage at the bottom of the screen or whatever. With social media, you can just be there for two hours and until the TikTok screen comes up, that's basically chastising you for spending too much time on TikTok, until that happens, and you feel extremely bad about yourself. Really, there's just no way... not no way to know of course, but it just doesn't feel like time is passing. And I think with books is more of a natural you can see, you can see how you're progressing through the story and things like that. So I think being aware of it and sort of asking yourself, "Do I actually want to do this? Let's set a timer. Let's maybe read for 10 minutes, and then I can go on TikTok for as long as like." I'm using TikTok as an example today. It could be anything.

Anne Bogel [00:46:19] I'm just trusting you because I'm not on TikTok. Now I'm afraid to get on. I just wasn't and now I'm afraid.

Claire Handscombe [00:46:27] It's so much fun. It's so much fun, but it's bad.

Anne Bogel [00:46:32] If you're ready, I would love to recommend some books you may enjoy reading next.

Claire Handscombe [00:46:37] I'm definitely ready. I'm very intrigued and curious.

Anne Bogel [00:46:40] Here's the good news and bad news in that the first book that I'm so looking forward to you reading because I think you're absolutely going to love it does not come out till April. But it's too perfect not to mention here. And that is the new Curtis Sittenfeld's. It's called Romantic Comedy. Do you know anything about this?

Claire Handscombe [00:46:55] You know, as soon as you started talking, I was like, "I bet she's gonna say Romantic Comedy." I don't know very much about it other than it's by Curtis Sittenfeld, who I love. I've read almost all her books and yeah, love her.

Anne Bogel [00:47:06] I'm glad to hear that I have a mixed relationship with Curtis Sittenfeld. I think she's incredibly good at what she does, and that is not always to my taste. And I was also really surprised to find out that she was writing a meta-romantic comedy. I just did not expect this from her. And I thought that was so intriguing. But Claire, this is such a fun book and I think you're going to love it.

[00:47:29] This is the story of a comedy writer who writes for what is basically Saturday Night Live. This is a novel. It's not called Saturday Night Live. It's called The Night Owls. Sally is a writer on the show. She has been for a long time. It's her dream job, even though she's constantly putting up with crappy hours and pay that's like, okay, and sexism that she says wouldn't be tolerated in hardly any other office setting.

But she loves what she does. I don't know how Curtis Sittenfeld did her research, I'm so so curious, but she really takes us behind the scenes and it's completely believable and says, "Hey, this is how we put a show together. And this is what it's like to interact with the celebrity guests. And this is the banter among the staff. And let me tell you the dynamics of a table read." And you love Hollywood stories. And this isn't quite Hollywood, but it's similar enough that I think you're really going to enjoy every one of those details.

So she's worked at The Night Owls for nine years, and she says that she is as accustomed as one could be at this point to interacting with these high-wattage celebrities. And you discover who's even better looking in person, she says most of them are, who was a real jerk, who is just not that smart and has a hard time understanding how the comedy writers are trying to make them look funny.

[00:48:43] But what happens here is she and a co-worker after her male co-worker falls into a relationship with a completely gorgeous maybe model, maybe actress, I don't remember, she says, Okay, there's a rule of life. That can happen to men. But women like a smart, funny, not drop-dead gorgeous woman is never going to land like the high-wattage celebrity Sexiest Man of the Year guy. It just doesn't happen.

And the universe takes this is a challenge and brings a famous popstar that she has a lot of disdain for to the set. That's the setup of this meta-romantic comedy. And it's so much fun. And I have to tell you because I know that you're really enjoying reading books that are not heavy, where terrible things don't happen to characters. I think that's true here for the most part, but also I was really surprised, in addition to being surprised that Curtis Sittenfeld was writing about comedy writers and writing a romantic comedy because I didn't see that coming from her. But she also carries her story through the pandemic. And some of the events take place in and are strongly impacted by the pandemic. I want you to know that going in because you're in dreary London and you want sunny, happy things and you shouldn't be blindsided by that. But I think it's going to be worth it for you. And I want to know how that sounds.

Claire Handscombe [00:50:01] That sounds amazing. I definitely want to pick that up.

Anne Bogel [00:50:04] I'm glad to hear it. So, Claire, the reason I wanted to start with a book that wasn't out yet, even though you've demonstrated that that isn't necessarily going to mean you haven't read it yet, you're reading Laura Hankin right now, that doesn't come out till later this year. But I feel like as someone who loves and is writing romantic comedies, you could very well have read every single thing. So I just realized that a book that I think will be perfect for you is a British-based romantic comedy. I'm not sure this is a good idea only because I feel like the odds are not in my favor. But the one I have in mind is Boyfriend Material by Alexis Hall. Have you read this?

Claire Handscombe [00:50:37] I haven't read it. Actually, no.

Anne Bogel [00:50:39] I'm so glad to hear this. Okay, if I were talking to a reader in the US, I would say, "Oh, if you enjoy British humor, you have to get this on your radar." But also, this one employs the fake dating trope, and it's just completely charming. It's a closed-door romantic comedy, totally swoon-worthy. And there are, of course, difficult things and relationships in these characters' pasts. But I think this is light-hearted enough to make you happy.

So this is about Luke who's the son of big-time rock stars. He is famous by association. He really wishes he wasn't. He, I almost said enjoys, he does not enjoy the notoriety that he has in the press. They think he's a bad boy. It's easy for him to play into that because he has certainly seen his fair share of trouble. But he's put that lifestyle behind him and he feels like the rest of the world can't move on. But now his estranged father is making a big comeback, and he's back in the media and has been told like, "You need to get your image in better shape, or bad things are going to happen."

[00:51:38] So this is how he ends up connecting with Oliver who is a completely sober, straight-laced, super responsible barrister because we're in the UK and this book is vegetarian just all around good guy, he's also completely handsome, and they are just seemingly polar opposites. But for various reasons, some of what you can deduce from the bad boy image, some of which aren't really clear yet with Oliver's end, they embark on a fake relationship. And you've seen a lot of rom-coms, you've read a lot of rom-coms, you can guess what happens from there.

I think this is sweet and funny, if I remember correctly because it's been a while since I listened to this book on audio, it was great in that format, there's a pair of just really zany moms that I remember really, really loving. There's a lot here for you to enjoy I think. How does that sound?

Claire Handscombe [00:52:32] That sounds great. Actually, I really liked Rosaline Palmer Takes the Cake by the same author. And that one didn't make me laugh out loud. So I'm thinking this is a good match.

Anne Bogel [00:52:41] Oh, great. Because this one is so much better, in my opinion.

Claire Handscombe [00:52:44] Oh, really?

Anne Bogel [00:52:45] If that would make you laugh, you're golden. Claire, you're interested in reading literary fiction. You also have a strong love of romance. I am intrigued that you describe the idea of you as literary fiction. Now, if I were standing in East City Bookshop, this would be my stretch pick for you for sure. So I have a literary novel that I think could be perfect for you, except it has several strikes against it as well. There are emails in the text of this definitely literary novel, but it's a debut. They didn't let her get away with it just because she Sally Rooney. And also this prose is dense. She packs a lot of meaning into her short sentences, but every word matters. Is that terrifying?

Claire Handscombe [00:53:30] No.

Anne Bogel [00:53:33] The last thing I want you to know is it's really, really clever because she's retelling a very, very old story.

Claire Handscombe [00:53:38] Okay, I'm intrigued.

Anne Bogel [00:53:42] Maybe I shouldn't bury my lead. The book I think may be perfect for you is The Portrait of a Mirror by A. Natasha Joukovsky. Is this one you know?

Claire Handscombe [00:53:51] I've never heard of this one.

Anne Bogel [00:53:53] Claire, the reason I like this for you is I'm wondering if instead of giving your brain something really, really easy, we want to give it something really, really interesting. I'm not saying this is hard, necessarily, but I am saying that there's a lot here to occupy your mind because it's functioning on several levels.

So there's the myth and there are frequent nods to the myth that take the forms I didn't expect and really enjoy. Like one of the trust fund kids. He has all his money in his tech company that's called Echo. Well, Echo is a character in the story of narcissists. So it took me a little bit to figure that out. But I thought that was a lot of fun.

This isn't just a story that loosely follows the structure of the old Greek myth. This is one that employs many elements in it, just peppered throughout the story, like the names of the characters, the names of their businesses, the names of their apartment buildings, as well as the plot threads. Sometimes it's very overt. Like one of the companies that one of the characters works for is in the finance business. And so there's a long description of a credit card ad where the tagline is: Pay like a god. And they talk about these characters from Greek myths, like going out to dinner and arguing over who's going to pick up the check. So that's very obvious nod to the source material. But otherwise, they're so subtle that I'm sure that I didn't catch them all on my first read-through.

[00:55:13] It's not a Hollywood story but it does have those same echoes of like privilege and status. And optics. Optics are very big in this story. And in fact, one of the major themes which can make my head spin a little bit the way they carry it out through the book is that of recursion, which is discussed very frankly at the beginning of the story. That made me think of the Blake Crouch novel. But what they mean in this book is how often we as people are going through our lives not thinking about the conversation we're having with the other person but what they're thinking about us as we're having the conversation. This is very much about image and status. And it's about love. But more than that, it's about desire and narcissism and those easily twisted and already twisted forms of love. This is witty and clever and really compact in the sense that there's a lot happening this 300-page story.

I do have to tell you that some of the story in this literary novel is told in the text thread histories that happened between the characters or we'll see a Wikipedia page about Charles West range the fourth and where all his money came from and what he's doing these days. We see the New York Times wedding report on one of these couples' weddings.

This book is set in 2015. So there's a moment where characters are sitting around the dinner table breaking down what they think about the Serial podcast in great detail, and what their opinions say about them as people. This is a stretch, but I also think it's a really promising one for you. What do you think, Claire?

Claire Handscombe [00:56:45] I think it sounds great, actually. I love rich people problems. So The Nest by Cynthia D'Aprix Sweeney is one of my favorites. So that side of thing appeals. And actually the Greek myth... I don't know as much about Greek myths as I sometimes feel like I should. But I have really enjoyed books like The Penelopiad and Fates and Furies, which had a little bit of allusion to that as well. And actually the email and text thing. I just didn't think it worked in Sally Rooney's book. But I don't have an aversion to it in general. I think it can be really good when it's used well. So, yeah, I think all in all that one sounds great.

Anne Bogel [00:57:18] The Fates and Furies by Lauren Groff, I think that's a really good reference for this book. And I'm glad to hear it. I'll be so curious to hear what you think. I wouldn't say these characters are likable exactly but I do think that you could really enjoy reading about them. I mean, you specifically could really enjoy reading about them.

Claire Handscombe [00:57:34] Yeah, no, I actually don't need characters to be likable. I quite like an unlikeable character sometimes, so.

Anne Bogel [00:57:42] I'm glad to hear it. Claire, we covered a lot of ground today. Of the books we talked about, at the very end, and they were Romantic Comedy by Curtis Sittenfeld, Husband Material by Alexis Hall, and The Portrait of a Mirror by A. Natasha Joukovsky, of those books, what do you want to read next?

Claire Handscombe [00:58:03] I thought it was for sure gonna be Romantic Comedy, but it might be that last one actually. I don't know. I've got some time off coming up and sometimes it's nice to curl up with a bit of a longer, more immersive read. I don't know. One of the first or last.

Anne Bogel [00:58:19] I can't wait to hear what you decide and I can't wait to see what you think.

Claire Handscombe [00:58:23] Yeah, I can't wait to read them.

Anne Bogel [00:58:24] Claire, thank you so much for talking books with me today.

Claire Handscombe [00:58:26] This was so much fun. Thank you so much.

Anne Bogel [00:58:35] Hey readers, I hope you enjoyed my discussion with Claire and I'd love to hear what you think she should read next. Claire is on Instagram @Claireandherbooks. We've included that link as well as the full list of titles we talked about at whatshouldireadnextpodcast.com/365.

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Anne Bogel [00:59:39] Thanks to the people who make this show happen. What Should I Read Next? is created each week by Will Bogel, Holly Wielkoszewski, and Studio D Podcast Production. Sara Aeder is our Community Manager. Readers, that's it for this episode. Thanks so much for listening. And as Rainer Maria Rilke said, "Ah! how good it is to be among people who are reading." Happy reading, everyone.