Sad Girl Lit Fic and other burnout busters

Lexie Hayes [00:00:00] I really need to make sure I milk my reading time. And even when I'm reading a book, I find myself thinking, is this is the best use of my time right now? I don't want to waste my reading time on a book that's not perfect for me.

Anne Bogel [00:00:17] Hey, readers, I'm Anne Bogel. And this is What Should I Read Next. Welcome to the show that's dedicated to answering the question that plagues every reader. What should I read next? We don't get bossy on the show. What we will do here is give you the information you need to choose your next read. Every week we'll talk all things books and reading and do a little literary matchmaking with one guest.

[00:00:49] Before we jump into today's conversation, I want to tell you real quick about the modern Mrs. Darcy Book Club, where we are learning to read better together through delightful and ongoing classes, community and conversation. One of the things we love best is our regular author chats. Members chat about each selection all month long at their own pace in our forums, and then the author joins us to talk about the book and their process and writing life. This month, we're reading Salty. An excellent work of foodie nonfiction by Alissa Wilkinson. And then in December, we're reading Sarah Nisha Adams's book about books, The Reading List. And we can't wait to talk with each author about their works. These events are so much fun. They're like a bookstore author talk, but chattier and very interactive. Our members love these. That's not the only thing that makes them modern Mrs. Darcy Book Club unique. In addition to author chats, we gather for classes and community events throughout the month, making it easy for members to join live or to watch those recorded events whenever it suits their schedule. Give the Modern Mrs. Darcy Book Club a try and connect with your book people. Learn more and sign up at modernmrsdarcy.com/bookclub. This would be a great time to join in. Sign up at modernmrsdarcy.com/bookclub.

[00:02:01] Readers, I've heard from so many of you that the stress of the last few years has disrupted your reading life, and today's guest is no exception there. Lexie Hayes works the night shift as a registered nurse, and the last few years of working in health care have asked a lot of her. When she's not at work she's focused on rest and recovery, which doesn't leave much time for one of her favorite hobbies. You know what that is? It's reading. As a result, Lexie is feeling burned out and pressured. When she does pick up a book, she needs it to feel like a perfect choice. And this is not a recipe for rest and relaxation. Instead of actually enjoying reading and getting on to that biblio therapeutic experience she craves, Lexie gets stuck staring at her shelves worried she'll pick the wrong book. And so she's not reading anything. What Lexie needs is a plan. We will talk about the very real struggle of burnout and burnout related exhaustion, and explore some new ways Lexie can look at her reading life-- even and especially when she's feeling tired and stressed. I hope to load Lexie up with some solid book recommendations, both on prints and audio, plus some ideas on how to approach readings. What actually brings her joy in respite when life feels exhausting. Let's get to it. Lexie, welcome to the show.

Lexie Hayes [00:03:15] Thank you so much. I'm so excited to be here.

Anne Bogel [00:03:17] The pleasure is mine. I'm so excited to talk to a Pittsburgh reader. I was just reading about White Whale Books and their origin story, and I was reminded of what you told us in your submission about what it did for your reading life. Can we just live right in, take us there in our minds.

Lexie Hayes [00:03:35] Yeah, absolutely. So, just to start off, I've been a reader forever just since I was a little kid. But then I went to nursing school and that was a whirlwind of a two years. And then I started off in my new job and I just didn't have the mental space nor the time to read at all. So my boyfriend at the time, who's now my husband, and I moved to an area that had this beautiful, precious independent bookstore called White Whale Bookstores. So we just wandered in there and we just met the most excellent group of people that just really helped us to fall back in love with reading. And I don't even remember the first book that they suggested to me, but I just have never gotten away from reading ever since then. And I really attribute getting back into reading to White Whale Bookstore.

Anne Bogel [00:04:25] I love it and I can't wait to visit. And I was just reading how the coffee shop was installed not so long ago.

Lexie Hayes [00:04:30] Yes, that was a long time coming.

Anne Bogel [00:04:31] Has that changed your habits?

Lexie Hayes [00:04:33] Not necessarily. I was going to go there anyways, but now I just buy additional things when I'm there.

Anne Bogel [00:04:40] I think that might have been the idea. They wanted to facilitate relationships among their customers. Readers know that they want to find great reads in a bookstore, but you really found reading people as well. Like, tell me how that happened.

Lexie Hayes [00:04:51] Yeah. So it's interesting. So the first worker that I met there, her name is Anna (and this is a little shout out to Anna) I think she was even working there the first day we walked in. She really just helped me to find my first book and she knows me by name now. She even runs their social media, so when I message them, she's always talking to me directly. It's so cool. But, yeah, she really helps fill me in on what's going on there, new releases she thinks that I'll like. And even and when it's my birthday and my husband goes into the store and asks, Anna, what do you think Lexiee would like? She goes into my account and she says, "You know what she hasn't read yet." And she makes a recommendation. And oftentimes she's like she has to really scroll through my profile because I have a book buying problem. But, yeah, she usually is able to pick something up perfectly and you don't find that at a big bookstore. And I just feel so lucky to have this place in my community and we don't even live that close there anymore. But we we still make the trip out there probably once a week or so. It's a problem. It is. I try to stop, but no.

Anne Bogel [00:05:55] I have never been. I can't wait to visit. I know that we've talked to guests before who have specifically mentioned it by name. So if you have visited it, please tell us in the show notes we'd love to hear. So, Lexie, between falling back in love with reading, thanks to moving to the area and discovering White Whale Books, and today when I'm not sure being knee deep in love with reading is how you describe your reading life right now-- I don't think so-- can you take us on a little journey? Explain to us what happened.

Lexie Hayes [00:06:23] Yeah. So when I got right back into reading, I read a couple of random books, but then I started with the Harry Potter series, which I surprisingly had never read before that time. And a friend from work actually lent me the first couple of books, and I fell in love with the fantasy genre again. So I flew through those books in just a few months and then I stuck with fantasy ever since. And then I read-- I can't remember the exact order-- but I read The Invisible Life of Addie LaRue which got me back into fantasy too. And then I read some of the of A Court of Thorns and Rose series. And then the City became by N.K.. Jemisin. And Fantasy became my comfort genre. And it took me a while to actually diverge from that at all. But then I started to read some of the bestsellers, like some Taylor Jenkins Reid and Emily Henry, and that got me into more mainstream, regular fiction. And ever since then, in more recent times, I'm still reading a little bit of fantasy and a little bit of romance. But I've been trying out some more hard hitting literary fiction, which has just been really impactful to me lately. And I'm just loving this new perspective of learning about people that are different from me and enriching my life in that way, if that makes sense.

Anne Bogel [00:07:48] Yeah, I loved how you said in your submission that you're loving trying out all kinds of different genres these days and that your comfort go to genres or contemporary romance and fantasy, but that you're really loving literary fiction, like you said, and translated literature and books that give you a new perspective on life in the world.

Lexie Hayes [00:08:06] Right, exactly. Yeah. And I would never have picked up translated stuff if it wasn't for, I think, it was Women and Translation month. I think it was August, and I picked up my first work and like, oh my goodness, this is so interesting because not only is that author so talented, but then you have the translator that's doing their own type of writing. And I would just definitely love to read more from that perspective.

Anne Bogel [00:08:28] Do you remember what that book was that you picked up? [Crosstalk].

Lexie Hayes [00:08:29] Yeah, that was All the Lovers in the Night by Mieko Kawakami, I believe. And I loved it. And it honestly reminded me sort of of Sally Rooney esque writing, which I know she's polarizing, but she's one of my favorite authors.

Anne Bogel [00:08:46] We're going to talk about that a litle more. Now, Lexiee, I'd love to hear more about the struggle you're facing in your reading life, and perhaps it would help if you started by telling us about your day job.

Lexie Hayes [00:08:55] Yeah.

Anne Bogel [00:08:56] That implies you have a night job. Does that sound weird?

Lexie Hayes [00:08:59] Well, I exclusively have a night job, actually.

Anne Bogel [00:09:04] Fair point.

Lexie Hayes [00:09:05] Yeah, I'm a registered nurse. I've been a nurse for eight years now. I've been a nurse. I currently work exclusively at night shift, so I work with medical but just normal medical surgical patients now. But prior to the last year, I worked with cancer patients exclusively. And then the pandemic hit and burnout really set in and in a number of ways. And so I just kind of switch to normal medicine and typically I work three 12 hour shifts in a row, so 7 p.m. to 7 a.m.. So it's not just the three days that I work. I have to sleep beforehand and I have to sleep after. And then I'm usually very, very, tired in a number of ways after my shifts as well. So my days off and my time off is just very precious to me because there's just a big part of my week that's basically not usable time for me, if that makes sense. .

Anne Bogel [00:09:57] So tell me more about what that's done for your reading life.

Lexie Hayes [00:09:59] So working night shift people always have the incorrect assumption that, oh, you have a lot of downtime at work, and that is not the case. I don't have any time to do anything but run around the unit when I'm at work, so I have no time to read during those three days. No time to read at work. I can't read when I get home because I'm sleeping and then I'm eating and then going back to work. So on my days off, I really need to make sure I milk my reading time. And once I finish a book, or even when I'm reading a book, I find myself thinking, is this the best use of my time right now? Like, not that reading isn't a good use of my time. It's just that is it the right book? Because I don't want to waste my such little reading time on a book that's not perfect for me, if that makes sense. And so even between books, I stare at my shelves for sometimes up to a full day before I make the leap into a book. Or sometimes I pick up a book and flip through the first 20 pages before I decide if it's worth my time or not. So it's becoming a really toxic cycle. Honestly, it's not as relaxing as it should be and as it used to be.

Anne Bogel [00:11:09] Okay, so it sounds like you've already thought through what some potential strategies could be for this.

Lexie Hayes [00:11:15] I don't know. I'm interested to hear what you have to say. I don't really have many strategies. I'm kind of at a loss.

Anne Bogel [00:11:20] Can we go back in time like five years ago. You finished a book, it's time for a new one. What happens next?

Lexie Hayes [00:11:25] I didn't have so many books on my shelves then, and I didn't have such a selection to choose from. So I would have a stack of like four books or I'd go to the store, pick something out and start that one. And for whatever reason, it's not that simple now, because I'm going to be honest, I probably have over 100 books on my TBR shelf, so it's just there's too many choices and there might be something better lurking on the shelves. You never know. I almost get FOMO of myself, if that makes sense. Which sounds that sounds crazy, but I just get that concern.

Anne Bogel [00:11:57] Lexie, I'm wondering how this strikes you when I say some people really enjoy the process of exploration when it comes to choosing their next read. What's your visceral reaction to that right now?

Lexie Hayes [00:12:09] I don't know if I necessarily enjoy the exploration. It's because that's almost stressful, you know. But I do like to kind of just take a little bite of books before I make my final decision, but there's still that undercurrent of stress with it, you know.

Anne Bogel [00:12:26] I do know. What I hear you saying is that you love reading and also that reading does really good things for your life. Like when you're reading a great book, what do you feel like that gives to you?

Lexie Hayes [00:12:39] I was just talking to people about at work about this because we're all feeling the same degree of burnout. I feel like regardless of the genre, regardless of how serious or maybe even depressing a book is, it transports me. It totally takes me away from the stresses that I feel on a day to day life. It just really does amazing things for me. It totally resets me. And I love the feeling of learning something new. So that feeling, along with just the transportation into another world, just leave me feeling just so happy and fulfilled and no other hobby of my life does that for me. So once I find that perfect read, it just puts me in a fantastic headspace.

Anne Bogel [00:13:23] In the abstract, tell me about a perfect read for you.

Lexie Hayes [00:13:27] A perfect read for me doesn't need to necessarily be all that plot heavy. It could just be even not even necessarily a stream of consciousness, but a character study or something with a really unique writing style. That has really been interesting to me lately. But I also in the fantasy genre, I love something that totally transports me into something not of this world, obviously. So I tend not to love fantasy books that are maybe even loosely built around our world. If I'm going to read fantasy, I want something to transport me. But if I'm not reading fantasy and I'm reading something like a literary or historical, I love to just viscerally feel. So whether it's happy, sad, exalted, I don't know. I like to feel very strongly when I'm reading.

Anne Bogel [00:14:16] Lexie, I'm so glad there are nurses in the hospital all night working the night shift. And then I want them to come home and get some sleep and pick up a good book when they want to pick up a good book. We can fix this.

Lexie Hayes [00:14:27] Yes, we do.

Anne Bogel [00:14:29] Okay. So I can see that you have extremely demanding circumstances, first of all.

Lexie Hayes [00:14:35] Yes.

Anne Bogel [00:14:36] I'm afraid to ask. Do you see your circumstances changing any time soon in terms of night shift or stress levels?

Lexie Hayes [00:14:46] So I used to work day shifts, but switching to steady nights is surprisingly less stressful for me. At least I have a regular schedule. So that once I get more used to it-- it's been a couple of months-- but I think that I will find a balance stress level wise with work. Plus, staffing is really bad right now. I don't know if you've heard about that with the hospitals, but I'm hoping that starts to turn around and maybe work won't be so stressful.

Anne Bogel [00:15:12] Okay. Well, we're going to plan for the season you're in. And also, if these strategies work now, these strategies are definitely going to work when you're feeling very chill and relaxed. Okay. So what I'm hearing is that you put a lot of pressure on yourself.

Lexie Hayes [00:15:26] Oh, yes. Not just in my reading life. Yes.

Anne Bogel [00:15:31] That's a common thing. It's like so many things in the reading life. It is not just you. So you want and need, in your own words, to make the most of the reading time that you have. Lexiee, what does it mean to make the most of your reading time? What would indicate that you have used reading time badly to you?

Lexie Hayes [00:15:53] If I'm reading a book and I find myself just saying, "Oh, how much time do I have left in this?" And that's when I'm referring to an audiobook. Or rolling my eyes or just things like that. And I'm not a person that's afraid to DNF a book. I will DNF a book. But sometimes I feel like if I'm giving a book 25% and I end up putting it down, that to me is not using that time that I spent even on that 25%. That strikes me as a time waster. And it's kind of sad to me when it ends up happening.

Anne Bogel [00:16:28] Okay. And you also said that you find yourself staring at your shelf for an embarrassingly long time like we're watching. We're not watching. It's fine. But it feels like an embarrassing long time when you're choosing your next read because you don't want to choose a bad book that will waste your time. Okay. So you recognize these minutes are precious and you don't want to flush them.

Lexie Hayes [00:16:48] Right.

Anne Bogel [00:16:49] Okay. Let's talk about the books you love, the books you don't, and then let's circle back to this once we have some concrete examples of what has played out for you and what hasn't. I have some ideas. Okay, Lexie, you know how this works. You're going to tell me three books you love, one book you don't, and what you've been reading lately. And we're going to see what we can do for your high pressure book situation. And also, you said too many choices is a problem. See if we can send you on your way with a small number of choices that you may enjoy reading next.

Lexie Hayes [00:17:21] Sounds great. I'm so excited.

Anne Bogel [00:17:23] Okay. What's the first book you love?

Lexie Hayes [00:17:25] Okay, my the first book that I love and I'm going to venture to say it's my favorite book I've ever read-- and as dramatic as that sounds, yes, I just read it. So it's called Tomorrow and Tomorrow and Tomorrow by Gabrielle Zevin. Just came out maybe a couple of months ago. I actually read this as an advance reader copy. I got an email from Matt Galli about it and I recognized the author right away because when I was younger, I think in junior high school, I read a book by Gabrielle Zevin called Elsewhere, which I think even might be a middle grade book. But at the time, I absolutely loved that book. That book stuck with me, honestly, for at least 10 years. I loved it. And to be honest, I expected Tomorrow and Tomorrow and Tomorrow to be a sci-fi book. And so I'm like, oh, I want to read sci-fi. But I read it and it wasn't sci-fi and I fell in love with everything about this book. I don't even know if I can put into words everything I liked about it, but I've never read anything like it. These characters were just incredibly well developed, incredibly real. I've just never read anything like this book before.

Anne Bogel [00:18:35] And I'm guessing you really liked that you'd never read anything like this book before.

Lexie Hayes [00:18:39] Absolutely. Yeah. And there was never a time that I was, like, oh, I should be reading something else. I was devastated when this book was over. Truly, I didn't want to leave this world.

Anne Bogel [00:18:49] This is our world. This is a realistic world and yet you really feel like you were living in it. Does that resonate?

Lexie Hayes [00:18:58] Yeah, it does resonate. But while this was our world, those that have read this book would know that there are little worlds inside that world. If you think about the world of [Inaudible] the video game or at the very end of the book, there was another video game that the main character put herself inside of. And it was just little things like that that were just so-- I don't want to say meta-- but it kind of made it feel kind of fantastical in a way, while also being a literary fiction book. And I loved that.

Anne Bogel [00:19:27] That sounds like an amazing reading experience.

Lexie Hayes [00:19:30] Absolutely was.

Anne Bogel [00:19:31] Tell me about the second book that you really loved.

Lexie Hayes [00:19:33] So my second favorite book, which used to be my favorite book before I read Tomorrow and Tomorrow and Tomorrow, is Beautiful World Where Are You by Sally Rooney. And I mentioned before, I know people either love Sally Rooney or hate Sally Rooney. And I get it, I really do. But I found that I absolutely love her writing style. It's detached in a way. It's witty, it's quick, it's dryly funny. Also has a good degree of social commentary that I like. And all of her books also feature some messy female protagonists, which I didn't realize was a subgenre of books that I liked until I read this book. So even when I finished this book, I searched on the internet what are books similar to Beautiful World Where Are You? And I found a number of books after that that I also loved. So I kind of use Sally Rooney as now like my benchmark for books that I tend to really like that are in the literary fiction genre.

Anne Bogel [00:20:37] High praise. Okay, Lexiee, I have to make a confession.

Lexie Hayes [00:20:41] You don't like or do?

Anne Bogel [00:20:42] Or a brag. No. I finished my first Sally Rooney book this morning. It was good.

Lexie Hayes [00:20:45] Oh, good. Really? Which one?

Anne Bogel [00:20:47] Well, okay, funny thing. I had decided, based on what I'd heard about Sally Rooney, that she was not for me. But I really enjoyed Normal People. But now I wanted to have a sense of her style as we were going into this conversation about your high stakes situation in your reading life. So thank you for nudging me to give that a try. I'm not sure I would have.

Lexie Hayes [00:21:08] Did you like it, though?

Anne Bogel [00:21:09] I really enjoyed the reading experience, so thank you for that.

Lexie Hayes [00:21:12] And you know what? One thing that's polarizing about her is the quotation marks thing, and I just didn't realize how strongly people felt about quotation marks one way or another until I read the good reviews about it. And I feel like people made full opinions off of it based on these quotation marks, which it didn't bother me, and I think it even just added to the style in a way that I thought was so unique.

Anne Bogel [00:21:31] Okay. So you discovered that this genre-- what's your name for this genre Lexie?

Lexie Hayes [00:21:37] This is another white whale books thing. They have a shelf on there. I don't know if it's still there, but they had a shelf. It said sad girl lit fic. And I'm, like, I don't know if I necessarily consider myself a sad girl. But I'm, like, this is maybe saying something about me. I don't know. But I am starting to work my way through that whole shop of books and I am loving all of them. And I just don't really know what it says about me, but something about it, whether it's just like these angsty women, it's just really connecting with me and I love it so much. And there's a couple other books like My Year of Rest and Relaxation, which is narrated by Julia Whalen, which is the reason I listen to it on audio, but also I think is going to be a polarizing book. But I love that too super messy female narrator And it was in my lane or my new lane, at least.

Anne Bogel [00:22:30] Fortunately, you don't have to be a sad girl to really enjoy sad girl lit fic.

Lexie Hayes [00:22:34] Yeah. Sometimes we just like to feel in our feelings sometimes, you know.

Anne Bogel [00:22:38] And we know that you really like that as a reader. And you also said that you don't need a book to be super splotty. You like a character study?

Lexie Hayes [00:22:44] Yes. And that's what these books are, tend to follow that structure.

Anne Bogel [00:22:48] What did you find interesting about the characters in the Sally Rooney novel?

Lexie Hayes [00:22:55] I don't think any of the four main characters were particularly likable. They weren't particularly good to each other, despite the fact they're there within this little group of friends. But I still like their dynamic. I still felt connected to their relationships between the two romantic couples and then the two girls that were friends. I just really connected with them and I really also liked that they were able to have some pretty deep conversations with each other too, that I don't think people actually talk to each other like that. But I enjoyed the social commentary that was discussed, if that makes sense.

Anne Bogel [00:23:36] So interesting dynamics capture you. You enjoy the deep conversations and watching characters wrestle out their thoughts about the world on the page that's something that you appreciated.

Lexie Hayes [00:23:45] Yes, exactly.

Anne Bogel [00:23:47] Okay. I'll put that in the hopper. Tell me about the final book you chose that you love.

Lexie Hayes [00:23:52] So this is going to kind of feel like it's out of left field because I haven't mentioned anything about romance yet. But Emily Henry has become an absolute auto by author for me. So my favorite book of hers, or actually one of my favorite books in general is People We Meet on Vacation, which a lot of people actually say is their least favorite one of her books. But I absolutely loved that book through and through. I've already reread it once. But my favorite thing about Emily Henry is how she doesn't necessarily have that corny meet cute or the unrealistic intros that I tend to find kind of irritating. And her characters are just funny. They have real conversations that actually make me laugh out loud. The conflicts are relatable and plausible, and it's just was really enjoyable for me and I just loved everything about it.

Anne Bogel [00:24:47] That's really interesting that you said relatable, implausible conflicts because I'm noticing that thread. You'd like to watch people working through some stuff.

Lexie Hayes [00:24:54] You know what? I never thought about it like that, but you're definitely right. I think maybe just realistic people, real people are just things that I just tend to enjoy.

Anne Bogel [00:25:03] And you love fantasy.

Lexie Hayes [00:25:04] Yes.

Anne Bogel [00:25:06] But highly fictional people, they have stuff work-- they are not people. Highly fictional characters. They got stuff to work through.

Lexie Hayes [00:25:14] Yeah, they do. And I feel like the fantasy books that I enjoy tend to have some more real world conflicts as well.

Anne Bogel [00:25:22] Interesting. Okay. So watching people work through their stuff, also maybe acknowledging their stuff in the world stuff. I'm thinking of the characters in Sally Rooney novels talking about the world and its problems.

Lexie Hayes [00:25:36] Right. Yeah, I definitely agree.

Anne Bogel [00:25:38] Okay. All right. We're piecing it together. Tell me about a book that wasn't right for you.

Lexie Hayes [00:25:42] So this one I know it was on a lot of lists for whatever year it came out. I think it won book of the year or ciction of the year on Goodreads.

Anne Bogel [00:25:51] That's okay. It's never just you. We've got time. You're going to tell us why it wasn't for you at least not when you picked it up.

Lexie Hayes [00:25:56] Right. It's the Midnight Library by Matt Haig. I listened to this on audio and the narrator was great, but the story itself was just intolerable for me because I think it was just filled with a bunch of just trite life lessons and lectures. And it just kind of felt inauthentic to me and it wasn't at all enjoyable. And that book kind of started my understanding that I tend not to like books that are, I guess, coming of age or understanding one's self being the main plot line, if that makes sense. I don't know. I don't like when people just tell me a life lesson instead of just showing it with plot development.

Anne Bogel [00:26:44] Okay. It's been a long time since I've read this, but I want to say that there's like a shepherd or a guide in the Midnight Library. It is helping the traveling character process some stuff. Is that correct?

Lexie Hayes [00:27:01] Yes. And it's been a while since I've read it, too. But, yes, that shepard and guide I think just had all of their dialog was just these corny-- they almost felt like quotes. It was just the quotes felt inauthentic and not really helpful. If anybody was reading the book as a book that may teach them life lessons, it just didn't feel like that was going to achieve the goal for people. I don't know. Maybe it did.

Anne Bogel [00:27:29] So you'd rather read about the character trying to figure out their lessons without the voice from on high like spouting them.

Lexie Hayes [00:27:35] Right. Exactly.

Anne Bogel [00:27:37] Okay. If you wanted to revisit Matt Haig, I wonder if you'd enjoy his nonfiction. So many of the themes present in the Midnight Library are also addressed very head on in Reasons to Stay Alive.

Lexie Hayes [00:27:49] I've definitely been on the fence about picking that up, but I don't know. I had such a bad taste in my mouth that I haven't done it, but maybe that's something I would listen to on audio.

Anne Bogel [00:27:57] Okay, we'll just file that away for later because there's plenty more to read. Okay. Lexie, what have you been reading lately?

Lexie Hayes [00:28:04] Lately? I actually just finished a book. The Idiot by Elif Batuman I really enjoyed a lot of that book. I think it was a tiny bit long and drawn out, but all in all, the not narrative style checked off all of my boxes. The plot looseness kind of checked off my boxes too, as strange as that sounds. But it was also very smart. It taught me about the world. It taught me about language. And I really enjoyed that book. I was kind of surprised by that.

Anne Bogel [00:28:43] Where you now? Because it sounds a lot like Sally Rooney to me.

Lexie Hayes [00:28:45] Oh, really? Do people compare that book to Sally Rooney because I didn't know that I really did. And I swear.

Anne Bogel [00:28:50] For better or worse, they really do.

Lexie Hayes [00:28:52] Okay. At least I'm consistent.

Anne Bogel [00:28:56] Hey, it's good to recognize the patterns of what works for you.

Lexie Hayes [00:29:01] But another book I've been reading or I read recently that I adored was The Great Believers by Rebecca Makkai. I was visiting my sister in Denver back in July and every time I travel somewhere I need to visit the local Indie. So I stopped in Tattered Cover and I just looked on the shelves and the cover was very pretty, which I know you're not supposed to pick up a book because of that. And I decided to read it.

Anne Bogel [00:29:27] The cover is one of many data points store to find a good-- it's fine. It's fine. So it was a beautiful cover?

Lexie Hayes [00:29:31] It was. And I started reading it on the plane and I just fell head first into this world. I've never read a book about the AIDS epidemic in the eighties when it first started-- eighties and nineties. And I just adored this book. It made me feel so much. I learned so much. I cared so strongly about these characters and I did not want this book to end, and I would recommend this book to anybody.

Anne Bogel [00:29:58] Lexie, what kind of recommendations would you welcome right now?

Lexie Hayes [00:30:02] I would really open.

Anne Bogel [00:30:04] I'm going to reserve the right to throw in like a pick out of left field. But tell me what comes to mind.

Lexie Hayes [00:30:09] I'm telling you I'm super open. I said in my submission I'm definitely open to some audiobook choices because I probably do about 50% of my reading on audio just because I kind of have a long commute. So things that are good on audio or highly recommended in audio form, whether it's fiction or nonfiction. I will not read fiction like in a physical book, but I definitely will listen to it. But I'm actually thinking if we're going to have to narrow it down to something that I'm looking for recommendations on, probably some more literary fiction because I'm just really finding that to be the most enjoyable genre for me right now. And maybe even something that is-- I don't want to say like a crossover between my genres. But if you found something that kind of combined my love for fantasy with my love for messy female protagonists, that would be so cool. I would be so happy.

Anne Bogel [00:31:07] Oh, this exists. This exists. And, listeners, you know this podcast is recorded live. There's no before and after where I go do all the research and scan my shelves. So I'm sure you have good suggestions that have not occurred to me yet. Go tell us in the show notes on WhatshouldIreadnextpodcast.com and I'll see what I can do. I think Addie LaRue is not far off that.

Lexie Hayes [00:31:25] You are so right. I was actually just looking at my shelves I'm, like, you know what, Addie, you really check the box for me. I wish I could read you for the first time again.

Anne Bogel [00:31:32] Yeah, I can see. Okay, good. I'm glad to hear what you mean. So we just need another book like Addie LaRue. That's a small, little ask. Okay, Lexiee, let's see what we can do here and let's talk about how you can help yourself feel better about choosing your next read. Because I think this is as much a mind game as anything. Strategies or help, but also you work in the medical field. You know what stress does to the body and brain.

Lexie Hayes [00:32:01] Yes.

Anne Bogel [00:32:02] And it doesn't help with your decision making capacity at all.

Lexie Hayes [00:32:05] It's so true. And that's not what reading is meant to make people feel. So I just need some strategies to help make the entire process start to finish be a stress reliever for me, as it should be.

Anne Bogel [00:32:17] Okay. I like the idea that it could be a stress reliever and not a stress contributor. Okay. Let's see what we can do here. So, first of all, you mentioned that you have too many choices when you're choosing your next read. If there's a natural way to curtail this, and this is going to be the one that's most independent, finding some way to limit your choices could be a good idea. Whether that means creating a smaller to be read cart or stack on your nightstand, whether that means creating some kind of priority TBR. Whether that means-- I don't know, does anything occur to you as you're thinking about ways that you can naturally curtail your options down from the hundreds.

Lexie Hayes [00:32:59] So I have recently ban book journaling, which I know you know all about, but in my book journal, which is combined with my planner, I have a monthly TBR that I set up for myself and it does help me narrow things down. But I am such a pathologic mood reader that nine times out of 10 I won't even pick up books that's on that list. But it does help me to at least almost like leapfrog from those books and that does help me. So ever since I've done that, I have noticed the improvement. Or if I decide like, okay, this month I will only read things that are on my Kindle. That way the list is a little bit smaller and that tends to be helpful.

Anne Bogel [00:33:42] And depending on your personality, you might want to tell yourself, Lexie, we have to choose from this list, or you might want to tell yourself, I'm going to choose from this list unless something is really calling my name or unless truly none of these titles are right for me right now. But just to have kind of a default you can look to instead of looking at your shelf of 100 unread books, that could be really valuable.

Lexie Hayes [00:34:02] Yeah, I agree. Definitely.

Anne Bogel [00:34:04] Okay. You mentioned that that you were a big mood reader and I'd like to suggest that as a reader, sometimes you have to make the mood. You love to read fantasy, you love to enter new worlds in fiction, so you know that a book is an invitation into a world, but you're not in that world when you begin it. And sometimes it takes a number of pages to establish the mood. I mean, can you think of a time where you picked up a book and were, like, I just don't know. And 10 pages in you were like, oh, yes, this is the world I want to be in. I'm ready to settle in.

Lexie Hayes [00:34:37] And you're definitely right when you say, let the book help me decide my mood. And I think if I don't go into a book thinking, oh, I don't think I'm going to be in the mood for this, why don't I pick up that book to start. So I don't know. I just think maybe I need to categorize my own moods better, and that would maybe help to narrow things down or read myself better.

Anne Bogel [00:35:04] I think that's true. But also a book could be an invitation to enter a certain mood and not necessarily need to be the perfect match that you have pre-identified.

Lexie Hayes [00:35:13] Yeah. That's a good way to see it.

Anne Bogel [00:35:13] Does that make sense?

Lexie Hayes [00:35:13] Yeah, absolutely.

Anne Bogel [00:35:15] And then this may be the trickiest, but I'd like to encourage you as much as possible to embrace the process. Exploration doesn't have to be a waste. And you did say that there are things about it you enjoy, but that it does carry this undercurrent of stress. And I wonder right now, like, let me paint a picture for you. This is just speculation about what your process could be like. You're going to your bookshelf, you're thinking about what you want to read, and you really just want to choose a book as soon as possible and go sit down and start reading. Does that sound like the circumstance.

Lexie Hayes [00:35:49] Sure does. And I go into it with a pressure right off the bat and it almost is a setup for me to find a flaw in that book after 10 pages.

Anne Bogel [00:35:59] When you say that sometimes you stare at your shelves for an embarrassingly long time, like, how long is that?

Lexie Hayes [00:36:06] Well, I mean, I don't mean this continuously, of course. Sometimes up to 24 hours. So I don't mean I'm just standing there staring at it that long, but I will leave, come back. Leave, come back, pick up a book, read 20 pages and put it back. A full day off for me is like once in a quarter of my time off and that takes away a whole day for me that I could be reading something that good.

Anne Bogel [00:36:29] First of all, I'd like to detach the reading time from the choosing time. Because as long as you feel that choosing time is lost reading time, it could take 2 minutes and you're still going to be really unhappy about that. But I wonder if you're choosing a book at a different time than you actually want to be reading the book. And I wonder how it might feel to set yourself a timer. I was going to suggest 20 minutes, but after you said 24 hours, maybe for an hour and say this is my exploration time. Like all I'm going to do is think about what I want to read. This time is not for reading. You could pull books off the shelf. You could think about what you're in the mood for. You could look at your journal. You could read a few pages.

Lexie Hayes [00:37:09] That sounds like a really good idea. Yeah, it does sound like a good idea. And I think that would kind of help my brain's decision making power for sure.

Anne Bogel [00:37:17] Okay. I'm curious to hear how this might go for you. What I really want to do is make this choosing time not sound like an annoying obstacle on the way to the reading, but like dang it, this is something readers do because it's part of the reading life. And there aren't really any parts of the reading life that are really terrible except for the paper cuts and the dead Kindle batteries.

Lexie Hayes [00:37:39] Yeah, you're right. Yeah. If I just see it as part of the experience, I think maybe it would be less high pressure. I agree. That's a good mental reframing.

Anne Bogel [00:37:48] Let's see what we can do. I'm so excited about this. Lexie, I think that something else that may help you think about your next read is to realize how many reasons there are for you to really feel like you love and connect with a book that it's worth your reading time. You love learning something new. You really enjoy entering a new world. It seems like if a book has one great feature, like a really well-drawn character or a really captivating setting, you are happy because of that one great feature. You said it doesn't need to be plotty. A character study is great. You said that was often like really characteristic of what you enjoy. And you want something that makes you viscerally feel, you really love books that evoke strong emotions. And that gives us a lot of choices. You're also really into sad girl lit fic featuring angsty female protagonists, and you thought that your dream situation might be an angsty female protagonist in a fantasy novel. I'm wondering if you've made the acquaintance of Naomi Novik.

Lexie Hayes [00:38:50] Never.

Anne Bogel [00:38:51] So Naomi Novik is a fantasy writer who's written several standalone books that I think could be really good fits for you. The first one I read is called Uprooted, and the next one that was a book of the month selection a long time ago is called Spinning Silver. And these are retellings of traditional fairy tales, and they're standalone fantasy options. I believe that you really enjoy reading fantasy books that are standalones and not part of a series because that doesn't require as much time or mental stamina to make that long term commitment to a book. Now, I would not call the protagonist of either of those books angsty, but I think they're not out of place. Like cozied up next to Addie LaRue. But what I would say is more in that vein is, for better or worse, a series. A three book series set at a-- I mean, of course, the comparisons to Harry Potter inevitable-- but set at a school for magic for teenagers. The first book is called A Deadly Education. It came out in 2020. The third book comes out this year. As so often happens in series, the books have gotten progressively better. There's a lot of exposition in book one. Like, this is how the magic works. This is how the school is set up. This is who all the players are. But the protagonist-- who I think if you ever were to plop a Sally Rooney esque character into a school for magic where failure means certain death-- I think she would be Elle from the Scholomance Series. So these students are high on the drama scale, high on the danger scale. You can't walk the halls alone, terrible things happen. They're monsters everywhere. And as much as they're dangerous in the school themselves, the students are also dangerous albeit for different reasons. I realize I have said what I hope is tantalizingly little, but I think this exploration of a young girl in a dangerous place exploring a deadly environment with a bunch of colleagues or fellow students with sinister motives, how does that sound?

Lexie Hayes [00:41:00] You know what? Once you said the author's name, I didn't recognize it. But once you said that series, I've definitely heard of that. And I think maybe the first book might be on my Kindle, if I'm not mistaken. So that definitely sounds up my alley.

Anne Bogel [00:41:14] Interesting. I will say I listened to that first book on audio is narrated by Anisha Dadia and I thought it was really good in that format.

Lexie Hayes [00:41:22] Yeah, that definitely sounds interesting and it's something I'd be excited about.

Anne Bogel [00:41:25] Okay. For more sad girl lit, I'm wondering about a new August 2022 release. It's called All This Could Be Different. It's by Sarah Thankam Mathews. Is this a story you're familiar with?

Lexie Hayes [00:41:42] No, I've never heard of that.

Anne Bogel [00:41:43] So this is a story of a young girl. She's an immigrant. She's graduating out of college into the terrible economy of the 2008 American recession. And she is struggling with a whole lot of stuff. She's an immigrant. She has to build a life for herself. And she's dealing with not only the terrible economic struggles, but also very real struggles of life and love as she tries to find her place and send money to her parents back in India where she's from. This is also a book that's very much about community, especially queer community, as she seeks to establish a relationship with a girl that she has a huge crush on but isn't quite sure how to make anything happen. But there is so much that happens in this book. So this is the story of a young woman facing a host of difficult circumstances, both internal and external, who has to figure some stuff out. This is more character driven than plotty. But I think it has so many of those elements you'll love in. In also another very Sally Rooney esque way, there are some descriptions of sex and physical intimacy that many readers find to be a little squidgy. So whether that is totally your jam listeners or something you want to avoid, you should know that that is an apt comparison between the two books. But we talked about, Lexie, how there are many reasons that you can really enjoy a book. You love learning something new. You love entering a new world. You love one great thing, like a beautiful turn of phrase or a deep character study. I think this book can offer you really all those things. How does that sound?

Lexie Hayes [00:43:19] That sounds right up my alley. I'm very excited about that recommendation.

Anne Bogel [00:43:23] There are a lot of different directions we could go, as we have said. How do you feel about going towards a novel in translation?

Lexie Hayes [00:43:31] I would love that. I'm definitely looking for more novels in translation, so I'd love a recommendation.

Anne Bogel [00:43:36] So the novel I have in mind is Freshwater for Flowers by Valerie Perrin. I hope I'm saying that right. It's out by Europa. Listeners, if you're interested in works in translation, this is a gateway publisher for a lot of readers because of the high quantity of translated works they do publish. This is translated from the French. I'm just going to read you the opening, which I thought was really striking and captured me when I was listening to the audiobook immediately.

[00:44:00] "My closest neighbors don't quake in their boots. They have no worries. Don't fall in love. Don't bite their nails. Don't believe in chance. Make no promises or noise. Don't have social security. Don't cry. Don't search for their keys, their glasses, the remote control their children. Happiness. They don't read, don't pay taxes, don't go on diets, don't have preferences, don't change their minds, don't make their beds. Don't smoke, don't write lists, don't count to 10 before speaking." Lexie, that catalog keeps going and it ends like this. "They're dead. The only difference between them is in the wood of their coffins. Oak, pine, or mahogany." So this is the story of Violet Toussaint and she is a cemetery keeper. Her job is to be the caretaker for the graves and all those who come to visit the graves at a cemetery in a small French town. So this is the story of what she sees, but it is also the story of her own tragedies. You know very early in the book that she had a daughter who was absent from the pages. So you're left to find out slowly over time what happened. And a good portion of the book is her tracking down the mystery of what befell her daughter. Readers, take your content warnings as needed. Nothing in this book is graphic, but you know that a child has vanished and you slowly find out what happened slowly and then all at once, which some writers do so well. This is also the story of a doomed relationship. And a woman who I'll just say the relationship reminded me very much of the relationship in normal people. It's also a gentle, tender, almost tentative story about slowly finding life and even joy again after loss. Her turns of phrases are so beautiful. Or maybe I should say the wonderful turns of phrase as belongs to Hildegard Serle, the translator. This was beautiful on audio. I did have to do quite a bit of flipping. There's a strong back story element where somebody is relaying a family history that is not the protagonists. I do flip back a few times and go, wait, who's telling what story? What timeline am I in? But on the whole, I thought the narrator's voice was beautiful and it did work in that format. This is not a plotty novel. It's mostly a character study. But there are some plot points that made me go, ah, no. And I don't know if you had a small cemetery in Bourgogne on the list of places you wish to visit on the page. But I don't think you'd be sorry for the trip based on what you've enjoyed. How does that sound?

Lexie Hayes [00:46:34] That sounds so interesting. And I'm interested in getting into works of translation, but I never even thought of looking at French ones. And that just sounds like such an interesting perspective in a story that's right up my alley. So I'm definitely excited about that one.

Anne Bogel [00:46:50] I'm glad to hear it. Okay. Lexie, of the books we talked about today, Naomi Novik I think the one we're going to really lean in on is a Deadly Education. All This Could be Different by Sara Thankam Mathews. And Freshwater for Flowers by Valerie Perrin. Of those books, what do you think you may read next?

Lexie Hayes [00:47:09] I'm going to be honest, I feel totally equally about All This Could be Different and Freshwater for Flowers. They both sound absolutely perfect for me. But if I had to pick what I would read next, probably All This Could Be Different. It seems like a more guaranteed win for me and I'm looking forward to reading that one.

Anne Bogel [00:47:30] I love it and I can't wait to hear what you think.

Lexie Hayes [00:47:32] Yeah, I'll definitely do.

Anne Bogel [00:47:33] Lexie, thank you so much for talking books with me today. This has been a pleasure.

Lexie Hayes [00:47:37] Oh, it was so much fun. Thank you so much for having me.

Anne Bogel [00:47:44] Hey, readers, I hope you enjoyed my discussion with Lexie. You can follow along on Instagram to see what she reads next. Lexie is @LexHayz. I'd love to hear what you think she should read next. Leave a comment at whatshouldIreadnextpodcast.com. I'm also on Instagram at @Annbogel where I love to share reading inspiration and photos I take on my favorite walking route. And while you're there, follow the show at What Should I Read Next to see quotes, episode features and all kinds of bookish fun. If you're not yet signed up for our weekly newsletter, today's the day to do that. In the next few weeks, we're sharing some of our plans for 2023 with our subscribers, including some of the themes and topics we would love to explore in the first few months of the year. We would love to see your submissions. If one of these themes resonates with your reading life right now, more in that newsletter. Sign up at WhatshouldIreadnextpodcast.com/newsletter and start thinking about the story you might like to tell us as a potential guest on the show.

[00:48:47] Follow along in Apple Podcasts, Spotify or your favorite podcast app. You'll want to be tuned in next week for our annual gifting episode and following makes it so easy because your app will just let you know as soon as that episode drops. Thanks to the people who make the show happen.

[00:49:01] What Should I Read Next is Produced by Brenna Frederick with production assistance by Holly Wielkoszewski and editing and sound design by Studio D Podcast Productions. Readers, that's it for this episode. Thanks so much for listening. And as Rainer Maria Rilke said, "Ah, how good it is to be among people who are reading." Happy reading everyone.