Books that foster a sense of warmth and good conversation

JACQUELYN DUGGAN: When I think about what used to be on the table at my grandparents' house, you know, it would be something local, maybe about an area that we live in or something. But I feel like now-

ANNE BOGEL: That's my living room.

JACQUELYN: Yeah. There's nothing wrong with that. I love it. I think it's so interesting, and I think that they can take a whole new perspective now.

ANNE: Hey readers, I'm Anne Bogel, and this is What Should I Read Next?. Welcome to the show that's dedicated to answering the question that plagues every reader, what should I read next? We don't get bossy on this show. What we will do here is give you the information you need to choose your next read. Every week we'll talk all things books and reading, and do a little literary matchmaking with one guest.

[00:00:56] Readers, our Fall Book Preview is coming up soon on September 17th. And this year, our eighth year, we are featuring a new option to purchase a compact printed booklet that we're calling our Look Book to complement your Fall Book Preview experience.

If you've already purchased your a la carte ticket, or you're a member of our Modern Mrs. Darcy Book Club, Patreon, all-inclusive, or Patreon Bonuses and Events tiers, then you're all set to receive the digital guide and attend our live unboxing. If you're not, choose the best way to attend and save your space at modernmrsdarcy.com/fbp. That's for Fall Book Preview.

And if you'd also enjoy a little analog delight, I think you'll really love this year's printed Look Book. We have thoughtfully designed this in a smaller format than our printed magazine-style Summer Reading Guide, so you can tuck it in your journal, take it to the library bookstore, take it to coffee with a friend, take it everywhere, basically. It is pleasantly packed with bookish goodness for the literary season to come, and also includes backlist recommendations perfect for fall from our team.

[00:02:01] We designed this with an accessible price point top of mind. So you can have one sent to your door for right around 10 bucks, and that includes shipping. I think you're going to love it. This year we also prioritized making it stand alone from unboxing in a stronger way than it ever has before. So unboxing's wonderful, but if you know, "I don't have the time to do that this season," as good as it may be, then get our Look Book. It'll come to your mail. It's beautifully done. The professional printing is going to look amazing. I hope you'll take a look, find out more, and select the Fall Book Preview experience that's right for you this year at modernmrsdarcy.com/fbp.

Readers, today's guest has always been clear on her go-to genres, the ones she really loves and that she knows works for her. But lately, something has shifted in her reading life, and she's not sure why or what to do about it.

[00:02:54] Jacquelyn Duggan is joining me from home in Richmond, Virginia, where, in addition to reading, she enjoys being outside and working in her flower garden, with a special appreciation for her zinnias and roses. In her submission, Jacquelyn told us that with this unexplained shift in her reading tastes, she's finding herself skipping the books and turning to other forms of entertainment, like rewatching favorite TV shows.

While we love a good TV show around here, and her favorite shows are favorites for a reason, she is not happy with this substitution. Jacquelyn is hoping I can help her pinpoint what's going on with her reading life right now so she can get back to the books she loves. Or perhaps what she wants to do is get into the new-to-her kinds of books that might be right for her in this season.

There's one element of her reading life that Jacquelyn has remained clear and confident about, and that is her love for a great coffee table book. I love them, too. You know we'll talk about it today. We have recommendations.

Readers, this is going to be fun. Let's get to it.

Jacquelyn, welcome to the show.

[00:03:55] JACQUELYN: Thanks, Anne. I am so, so excited to be here.

ANNE: Oh, the pleasure's mine. I'm really excited about the places we're going to go today.

JACQUELYN: Me too.

ANNE: Jacquelyn, would you start by telling us a little about yourself? What we want to do is give our listeners a glimpse of who you are.

JACQUELYN: Absolutely. Well, I am 33. I live in Richmond, Virginia with my husband, our doodle, Murphy, and our nine-month-old daughter. Life is just a blast right now. It's full and fun and just everything we've dreamed of. I work for a wound care company, actually based out of Seattle, Washington. I'm not a provider, but I support our provider team and our executive team, and it's just really meaningful work. I enjoy it very much.

[00:04:51] Then outside of work, I love to take barre classes at our local barre studio, love to be outside. We have a thriving garden right now, although it's just now starting to thrive. It's been a little hit or miss this summer, but we enjoy that and love to hike and take walks and just be together as a family. And of course, reading is my very favorite way to wind down most days.

ANNE: Speaking of reading, this is open-ended on purpose. Would you tell us about your reading life?

JACQUELYN: Yeah. I know. Right now it takes a lot of forms. I feel like most days I read at the end of the day, and really like to pick up a couple different types of books. I, of course, love a good fiction and really open with that. I enjoy contemporary fiction. I love a good rom-com. I love a mystery. I'll sprinkle in some thrillers here and there.

[00:05:56] But another type of book that I really, really love, I refer to it as a coffee table book. The one that I'm most into right now is The Backyard Bird Chronicles by Amy Tan. I love this one so much just for the visuals of it. She has literal drawings of her birds that she observed in her backyard. It's really like a diary log of just observing birds in her yard.

I put this in the coffee table book category because, you know, when I think back to being a kid and, you know, my mom would have books on the coffee table, my grandparents have books on the coffee table. But I feel like we have such a fun picture, like a fun access to them now. I feel like they've really taken shape. I consider this type of book a coffee table book because you can set it out, you can look at it, put it down.

[00:06:56] I notice when people come over to our house, they'll notice what I have out on the coffee table. It might be a cookbook. It might be a book like Amy Tan's. And it's just fun to see what people do with it. They'll either flip through it, or I'll have friends really dive in and take a look at what I've got, and it always just sparks fun conversation. But I always enjoy reading that at the end of the day. It always feels like a little bit of a bedtime story, like something soothing to kind of close my day that way. So yeah, between fiction and that, that's mostly what I like to read these days.

ANNE: I'd love to hear more about coffee table books. You mentioned in your submission that you felt that they were often underrated and sometimes misunderstood.

JACQUELYN: Totally, totally. Like I said, I feel like they... when I think about what used to be on the table at my grandparents' house or even at my parents' house, it would be something local, maybe about an area that we live in or something. But I feel like now-

ANNE: That's my living room.

[00:08:07] JACQUELYN: Yeah. There's nothing wrong with that. I love it. I think it's so interesting, and I think that they can take a whole new perspective now. One that comes to mind is called A Life in Good Taste. It's a designer in Birmingham, Alabama, and it just shows her home and how she likes to decorate. And that's like a quintessential coffee table book.

But then I also think recently I've been reading Good Things by Samin Nosrat, who wrote Salt Fat Acid Heat. She has this new book out, Good Things, and it's just an account of good things and good recipes. I count that as a coffee table book even though it also obviously is a cookbook and is food writing in its nature. But it looks beautiful out on the table. It's fun to pick up and put back down. I just feel like it brings about warmth and conversation, and that's kind of what I look for when I see it. I almost always have a stack of at least three or four on our coffee table at any time.

[00:09:21] ANNE: Ooh, those are good qualifiers. Warmth and conversation.

JACQUELYN: Yeah.

ANNE: As I imagine what you might have in mind by underrated, I'm thinking about how... you know how readers talk about how certain things aren't real books? Like they look like a book but it's not a real book.

JACQUELYN: Totally.

ANNE: Is that something that people often spuriously apply to coffee table books?

JACQUELYN: 100%. In fact-

ANNE: Like not the kind of book like, "Can I count that in my book journal?"

JACQUELYN: No, literally. In fact, that's an internal conversation I've had with myself is like, "Should I put this down as a book that I've read?" And then I'm like, "Of course. I read the book. Of course it belongs in my shelved book reads." But it's funny because it's different than a quintessential sit down and read a story. But this is every bit of a book as much as something I've picked up from the local bookstore or library.

[00:10:22] And so I think that's what makes them underrated. At least for me, they're just so readable. I just so enjoy sitting down with them, whether it's flipping through photos or, you know, reading the small accounts throughout the book. It kind of depends on who the author is and what they're writing about. But there's just so much that can be gleaned. I feel like I learn so much from my version of a coffee table book, and that just brings me a lot of joy.

ANNE: All right. I'll go first. I'd love to hear a recent favorite, or two or three. I'm thinking about what you said about what makes a coffee table book and why you enjoy them in your reading life and in your space. The most recent one that I acquired is called Art for Everyone, and it's about "don't be scared. You can put art on your walls at home. Here's how."

[00:11:20] This is a book that really benefits from the photography-heavy, lots of visuals format. That isn't characteristic of every single coffee table book, but I know it's where a lot of people's minds go when they think about that kind of book. But it's sitting on one of my coffee tables right now. The regular visitors to our home, who always just kind of see what's around in the house when they come over, have all sat down on the sofa and looked at it and gone, "Ooh, what's this?" And just reached for it and popped it open and...

JACQUELYN: Yes.

ANNE: It's brought me joy. And it makes me want to paint and hang stuff on every wall in my house. But that's not the experience with, you know, most coffee table books.

JACQUELYN: Yeah. No. That's so funny that you say that because I feel like that's the mark of a good coffee table book to me is when friends and family will come over and yeah, they'll gravitate over to the coffee table, and they're like, "What's this?" And they start looking through it. And I can always tell if one isn't grasping someone's attention, they're obviously not going to go for it. But then the ones that get a lot of attention are just always fun to me.

[00:12:29] Like one in particular I have out right now is called A Kitchen in Italy, and it's just this beautiful account. It is a cookbook, but the photos in it are so beautiful and so masterful. It's the story of a kitchen in Italy and what that looks like. Certainly, I might cook from it at some point. I love to cook. I love to be in the kitchen. But mostly I keep it out because it's just so beautiful and fun to read and a fun escape. And so I feel like when a coffee table book can fit into all those categories, that's when you know it's a fun one. But friends love flipping through that one, just because we're all like, "Don't we all just want to go to Italy?"

ANNE: Oh, I love a cookbook on the coffee table. I mean, not just any cookbook, but something that's pretty, that has a lot of stories, even if they're short. Because like you said, you can pop it open into the middle, just kind of see what's there, enjoy it a little bit, put it back, walk away, it doesn't hurt anything. I love that.

Jacquelyn, do you have any other favorites you'd like to share?

[00:13:36] JACQUELYN: There's two that come to mind. One is called Welcome Home by Myquillyn Smith. She has several really lovely books. This one in particular is a favorite of mine because it goes through the seasons of your home with actual seasons throughout the year. And so she talks about cultivating your home in a way that follows the seasons of the calendar.

I just find myself at the beginning of each season, I just always return to her book. In fact, I keep it out most all year because I love to just remind myself like, oh yeah, okay, this season is turning. Here in Richmond, Virginia, we have a typical four season calendar year and really experience fall, winter, spring, and summer. So I just love turning back to her book to say, okay, what does feel like the ushering in a fall and what is the vibrancy of spring? That one is really fun and just beautiful. Really, really well done. I enjoy it.

ANNE: Practical inspiration.

[00:14:53] JACQUELYN: Yes, exactly. Very practical, which I love. Then the other one that I'm enjoying is A Life in Good Taste by a designer in Birmingham, Alabama. Her home is just really beautiful, but she has kids and a life. Again, it feels very practical, but also special, like the way she decorates her home. It's a dream. There's color and pattern. It feels Southern, but it also feels very modern. She just has really good taste, and I just think she marries that really well. It's fun to look through.

And as a funny aside, that one... it's a beautiful book, but it always captures my eye because the pages of the book around the outside are blue, the way the rest of the book is. And so it just looks so pretty, whether you have it spine out or pages out. It always catches my eye. It's different than other books I have.

ANNE: I will say, I value a beautiful cover more highly when it's laying face up on display, basically.

JACQUELYN: I know, I know. The old adage of don't judge a book by its cover. But I do love a beautiful cover. I will be taken by a cover just to see what's inside for sure.

[00:16:18] ANNE: All right, Jacquelyn, what prompted you to come to What Should I Read Next? in this season?

JACQUELYN: I feel like... I don't know if my reading taste has changed or if maybe what I'm looking for from reading is changing. I'd be curious your thoughts about that. Truly, I've listened to your podcast for a long time, many years, and I do feel like I've started to hone in what I like, what I don't like. And I'm actually finding the more I hone that in, the more books I'm interested in. And I give myself more freedom to say, "Actually, I think this is a very good book. It's just not the right book for me, or it's not the right time for this book."

I feel like that has been coming up a lot, especially in this season where I'll start to read something and I'm like, "Okay, this kind of fits my typical genre, typical what I'm looking for, but it's just not resonating right now."

[00:17:24] As I said, we're in a busy season of life, things are full, and so I feel like my reading time is so sacred that I'm like, I really just want to read what I know I'm going to love and don't want to waste my time with filler or anything like that. But also, we've talked about this, and I know other folks on the podcast have said this too. Sometimes you need a little palate cleanser. Sometimes you need something that you know is easy and will be a great page-turner to kind of get you on to the next book and the next thing.

And so I think I'm trying to kind of figure that out right now. I think I've had several books that I'm like, "I think that just missed the mark a little bit, but I can't figure out why." Like I said, I'd be curious to hear your thoughts about that. So that's coming to mind.

[00:18:22] Then another thing that's kind of been plaguing my brain in the background, so much of my day outside of work can be like puttering around the house or taking long walks as a family. We love to put in our earbuds and listen to things all together. But I really haven't dived that much into audiobooks. I feel like every time I want to start an audiobook, I just can't get into it. And I am such a visual person. I love to hold a book or love to read on my Kindle. So I feel like an audiobook would be great. Like there's plenty of opportunity for me to listen to something, but I feel like I haven't quite found something that really captures my interest on audio. I feel like it's easy to get distracted and then find myself then turning to more of a podcast or something quicker and easier to kind of digest in a single sitting.

[00:19:27] ANNE: Okay. I will keep that in mind as we go along. As we think about what kind of books are making your reading time feel worthwhile right now, from the guts, how are you hoping to feel at the end of the next book you finish?

JACQUELYN: I love to feel a sense of resolve, a sense of completion. I love when something just makes you feel really good, regardless of whether it's a happy ending or, you know, tied with a bow at the end. More so just feeling like, oh, that was really good. I love when a book makes me think, but I also love when a book just ends on a really solid note and you just feel like, okay, that's exactly what I was looking for right now. Which feels so meta and hard to put my finger on because it's hard to know that when you pick up a book.

ANNE: It's a good place to start.

[00:20:29] JACQUELYN: I don't know. I don't know how that's going to go. But yeah, I love to feel really captivated and like I spent really good time with the characters and got to know them and got to know their story.

ANNE: Jacquelyn, we have enticing stuff to explore here. I'm excited. Thank you for trusting me with these delicate matters in your reading life. I think next, talking about what you love and don't, would be helpful to move our process forward. Does that sound like we're on a factory line? I didn't mean it like that.

JACQUELYN: I'm here for it. I'm here for the process. I love it. I love it.

ANNE: All right. Well, you know how this works. You brought three books you love, one you don't, and we'll hear about what you've been reading lately, and then we'll see where that leads us. How did you choose these?

[00:21:24] JACQUELYN: Yeah, I know. Of course, the question “three books you love and one you don't”, I really just tried to go with my gut and really tried not to think about it too much. I didn't even look at my bookshelf. I was like, okay, what are three books that just always stand out to me?

The first that I picked is The Thursday Murder Club by Richard Osman. It's so beloved to me. And I think what is special about it to me was it was the right book at the right time. I know we talk about that a lot. I read this during a particularly grief-ridden season, and I just feel like the characters in The Thursday Murder Club series, a little bit about it is... essentially, it's this group of people at a retirement, assisted living community and they solve murders.

[00:22:25] But I think it's more than just solving murders. It's about friendship. It's about their lives. It's about loneliness. It's about aging. There's so much underneath it. I just love this book. I just felt so connected to the characters. Wanted to know what was going to happen next. And thank goodness this is going on, I believe, a six-book series. I've read all of them. But this first one in particular is just special I think because of the time in which it met me. But I also just love it narrates from different viewpoints, which I always enjoy. So yeah, this is a special one. I'm glad for it.

ANNE: I'm glad it stands out. That's The Thursday Murder Club. What's the second book you love?

[00:23:21] JACQUELYN: The second one I love is The Sweet Spot by Amy Poeppel. This one's just fun. I remember exactly where I was when I started reading it. I was reading it on a beach vacation. It's not like a typical beach read, but it read so well at the beach because this book is kind of chaotic. There's a lot of moving parts. And also it's kind of a book where nothing really happens. It more just talks about their life and their relationships and their friendships. I loved that about this book.

It was so readable. It felt just comforting and fun, but also real. It felt like I was reading something that my friend was sharing with me about her life. It's a fun one. And I've read others of Amy's as well. I read Far and Away this fall. That has a very similar feel to it where it's like there is this overarching story and things are happening, but it's a lot about the people and what they're thinking about and going through. I just enjoyed that about this one.

[00:24:33] ANNE: Musical Chairs is my favorite of hers so far.

JACQUELYN: I haven't read Musical Chairs. I really want to.

ANNE: What did you say? Kind of chaotic?

JACQUELYN: Yeah. Is that one kind of chaotic?

ANNE: Mm-hmm. But also very warm. When she talked to us in Book Club, she talked about how she loves groups of threes. She thinks they're so interesting and dynamic and ever-shifting and lots of potential for alliances, but also like standoffs. Nothing resolves and it spins the plot forward. But it's fun and warm.

Her novels often have a strong intergenerational component, which people may not say, like, this is what I'm looking for, but it can still feel real good to read about. Like working intergenerational relationships, even when there's friction and lots of jokiness because of that friction and the gaps in understanding. It's just lots of fun.

[00:25:27] JACQUELYN: You hit the nail on the head. I love an intergenerational read with lots of different perspectives and viewpoints. That's very interesting.

ANNE: Okay. So, that was Amy Poeppel, The Sweet Spot. What did you choose for your final favorite?

JACQUELYN: My final favorite, again, this one is beloved. It's Save Me the Plums by Ruth Reichl. Ruth Reichl, by her trade, is a food critic, and also now as she has evolved in her career, a food writer over time. She's written many books. But this one in particular... this is her most recent, I think.

ANNE: Actually, is her most recent My Kitchen Year? Because we just had that coffee table conversation.

JACQUELYN: Oh, that's right. That's right. Yes, you're right. That one-

ANNE: And I was just thinking now, there's the cookbook coffee table book I really enjoyed. For all the coffee table book reasons. I'm not sure I made a single recipe, but gosh, I enjoyed reading about her food experiences.

[00:26:35] JACQUELYN: I mean, she has had such an interesting life. Save Me the Plums is particularly about her season with Gourmet Magazine.

ANNE: Yes. And My Kitchen Year is the aftermath. Like how I... I don't know if cope is the word Ruth Reichl would have used, but it was her processing moving on.

JACQUELYN: Well, I can imagine because, I mean, as you're reading this book, it's so compulsively readable for being a memoir. You know, memoir can be a little bit more thoughtful, reflective. You know, you're reading about a literal person's life. But this read like a story. It spanned a huge chunk of her life and clearly left an impact on her.

Also, sadly, Gourmet Magazine isn't around anymore. And that's like part of the story, spoiler, that how she kind of came to end that particular chapter that I just... I love her. I think she writes with so much candor and very frank in her thoughts.

[00:27:49] There's a few recipes and things sprinkled throughout, but what I love most about this one is just hearing her perspective and how she talks about food and people and how those two things come together.

My second favorite runner-up to this one, I love Garlic and Sapphires, which talks more about her experience as a food critic, which is just fun and interesting. It feels like... I don't know if this is true because I haven't read all of her books, but it feels like she chooses a season of her life and writes about that in her book. And I love that. I feel like you get such a telescope picture into what was happening during that particular time, which is really fun.

ANNE: So I'm hearing that there is more Ruth Reichl for you if you're looking to seek out that experience.

JACQUELYN: Yeah.

ANNE: Save Me the Plums is also... I mean, it's almost a postmortem, but it's very much how the industry worked, how the industry shifted. Do you enjoy how the sausage is made stuff? Do you enjoy it?

[00:28:57] JACQUELYN: Yes, I do. In fact, I feel like that plays into a lot of books when I think about books that I've loved. I love when something gets kind of nitty-gritty and niche and kind of captures my attention. Food writing for sure, just because I love cooking, I love being in the kitchen. And so anything that talks about someone's perspective in that is really, really fun for me.

ANNE: The details make it feel real?

JACQUELYN: Yes, totally.

ANNE: Make it feel true?

JACQUELYN: Like I'm there with them. Yeah.

ANNE: Okay. That was Save Me the Plums by Ruth Reichl. Jacquelyn, tell me about a book that wasn't for you.

JACQUELYN: This was hard because I decided to go with a book that I actually... when I step back, this is such a well-done book. It's The God of the Woods by Liz Moore. It's such a well-done book. It is captivating. It's sweeping. You feel like you're there with the characters.

[00:30:08] But I picked this one as one that was not for me because it took me... I vividly remember — I read it this past year — it took me almost a month and a half to pick up another book afterwards because of the way it left me feeling. I was really sad by this book. There were so many parts to it that were just on such a guttural level. I don't want to share too much because I don't want to give it away if somebody hasn't read it, but there are threads in that book of people's story that are so raw and real, it just made me really sad. I just couldn't stop thinking about them, which is also maybe the mark of a really good book, right? But when I am reading something, like I said, I want to feel resolved. And I didn't feel resolved with that one. I kept having questions about the girl in the woods, and her family, and the people in her life. It was a tough one. It was a tough one for me.

[00:31:15] ANNE: I heard you say captivating, sweeping, that it had a real sense of immediacy. And also, it was not the emotional experience that, I mean, was really welcome at that moment in time.

JACQUELYN: Yeah, yeah, exactly. I think-

ANNE: So it was too good. Liz Moore was too good.

JACQUELYN: Yes, yes, exactly. It felt like a dagger, for sure.

ANNE: You're not looking for daggers.

JACQUELYN: No.

ANNE: So people who say the highest praise is I was curled up in a fetal position on the floor, not you.

JACQUELYN: That's not what I'm looking for. I want something with depth. I want to have a relationship with the book, but yeah, curled up in a fetal position is maybe not the direction I would go in for my reading.

ANNE: Okay. This is really helpful. Jacquelyn, what have you been reading lately?

[00:32:11] JACQUELYN: Oh my gosh, I just recently finished The Shampoo Effect, which I loved. I loved. I almost picked it as one of my three.

ANNE: Okay. This helps because that's maybe a little snarkier than I might have thought you'd enjoy.

JACQUELYN: Totally. And it's funny because I liked it for that reason. I felt like it was so relatable. My life experience is different from the characters in the book, but everything, truly every character, said or felt something that I was, "I have felt that before. I understand that." And I liked the relatability of it and that it was a little bit, yeah, not... I feel like edgy is the wrong word. Snarky is actually what you said is-

ANNE: I mean, it's real sharp.

JACQUELYN: Yeah, it's really sharp.

ANNE: Okay, for anyone who's read this and can laugh along with me, I mean, Budweiser Manor cracked me up every time.

JACQUELYN: Oh.

ANNE: Every time.

[00:33:05] JACQUELYN: Every time. The other part... this is not giving away any part of the story, but there's this one part where one of the characters is like, "Ugh, what kind of idiot lets their kid share a brush at school and get lice?" There's a lice breakout in her kid's classroom, and then her kids come home and they have lice, and she is mortified. And it's like how many times have we all said that where we're like, "Oh, gosh... come on, and then literally that exact thing happens to us?" And you're like, "Who am I? Who am I to say that?" There was just so many moments like that that I just loved. I thought it was so funny and so good.

And then I'm so, so close to being done with Into the Blue, which is another new release. Again, I'm 80% done, so I don't know how it's going to end, but it's a little bit making me feel like I'm going to end in the fetal position, and I'm not sure how I feel about it.

ANNE: Is this Emma Brodie?

JACQUELYN: Yes, Emma Brodie.

ANNE: Okay. Oh, well, I haven't read this. No predictions. Let us know how it goes.

[00:34:08] JACQUELYN: Oh my gosh, yeah. Again, it's very well done. Very well done.

ANNE: Okay. Jacquelyn, what are you looking for in your reading life right now? The alternate question is would you like this to be different, if that evokes more of what is rising to the top for you during this conversation?

JACQUELYN: Yeah. Yeah. I really want a book that I just can't put down. I think that's actually what I loved about The Shampoo Effect. I just couldn't put it down. Again, it's one of those books where it's like there are things happening in the story, but it's not like a thrilling page-turner where it's very plotty. The way I like to describe it is compulsively readable. I just wanted to know what was going to happen with the characters and their lives. I want more of that. I love the feeling of staying up too late because I couldn't put down a book. I want more of that right now, I think.

[00:35:15] ANNE: I'm thinking about what you said about your reading taste changing, or what you're looking for has changed, but you can't put your finger on it. And you said in your submission that your usual go-to genres like cozy mysteries, a fun rom-com, a thoughtful memoir, are not hitting the spot. So as I hear you speak about your favorites, the picture that emerges is you like warmth and candor. Several of these books have intergenerational elements. The relationships are important here. Finding a calling, finding some kind of meaning is important here.

The Thursday Murder Club... lots of people forget this when they're sitting with the emotional feel of the ending, but it goes some dark places.

JACQUELYN: It does, yeah.

ANNE: But it didn't leave you there.

JACQUELYN: Yep.

ANNE: Which I think is perhaps different from God of the Woods.

[00:36:09] JACQUELYN: Yes. That's such a great call-out. I think we kind of get left in the woods with that proverbial darkness. Whereas, yeah, Thursday Murder Club will kind of... I mean, Richard Osman's writing is so poignant. He will say in like one sentence maybe what God of the Woods said in like a lot of chapters, if that makes sense.

ANNE: I wonder if you'd like Heft by Liz Moore. Goes hard places, leaves you in a different place.

JACQUELYN: Heft?

ANNE: Or even The Unseen World. If you enjoyed her writing, there are other books. Not longer either, though.

JACQUELYN: Yeah, because I thought she was, I mean, truly so well done. Again, that's why I feel bad saying it wasn't what I was looking for, but maybe just the story. Maybe it's just the story.

ANNE: Maybe. But that's just a little aside. But these books are gentle even in the hard things.

JACQUELYN: Yeah, yeah.

[00:37:08] ANNE: But then you brought Shampoo Effect in. One of these things is not like the others, Jacquelyn.

JACQUELYN: Well, when I think about the span of my reading life, one of the books that brought me back to reading, which sounds so funny because this wasn't that long ago, I should say, it brought me back to the true love and enjoyment of reading was Beach Read by Emily Henry. And I know so many people say they loved that book, but what I loved about that one was kind of the sarcastic snarkiness of it, but so relatable, so much fun, warmth, depth. That forever is marked as a book that... again, like, place and time and I really needed it at that time, I think. It's confusing because it kinda also fits in that rom-com category, but is a little bit more thoughtful.

ANNE: So both those books, especially The Shampoo Effect, is... I think I said sharp.

JACQUELYN: Yeah.

[00:38:14] ANNE: But also, how about the reader is in on the joke? It doesn't feel malicious.

JACQUELYN: Yes, exactly. Exactly. You're not backing anybody into a corner. It's not mean, but it's like, ugh, gosh, yeah. We've all been there.

ANNE: Is it a little mean sometimes? I mean, it's a little like, ooh, really?

JACQUELYN: Yeah.

ANNE: Like, did she really choose that path? Did she really say that thing?

JACQUELYN: Yes. Yes.

ANNE: But also, I feel like Jenny Jackson is kinda winking at it. Like, isn't this funny? Isn't this clever?

JACQUELYN: Totally. It's cheeky.

ANNE: Do you see the humor in people's outlandish behavior?

JACQUELYN: Yes, exactly. Exactly.

ANNE: What The Shampoo Effect really does is it expands your options and I think makes them more interesting. So, not sad about that outlier. We just gotta figure out a way to make it part of the picture. Okay, so your reading taste has changed. I'm wondering if anything that we've talked about so far has got your brain working.

[00:39:16] JACQUELYN: Totally. I think what keeps coming to mind is maybe I gravitate towards things I... like are a shoo-in to a typical cozy mystery rom-com. Pretty much if I sit down with one of those, it's going to be a good reading experience. I enjoy them. But maybe in this particular season what I need more of is something that I can really sink my teeth into something that is more resonant, something that is more relational and gripping. I think I sometimes don't know how to find those, because it's hard to look on, you know, the book jacket or hear from someone if I think that might fit the bill.

ANNE: Do you think you also like a portrayal of a world? Like, Save Me the Plums is the world of Gourmet Magazine. The Sweet Spot, you have this... I'm a Kentucky girl who doesn't know how to talk about New York City. But you have this network of relationships and several little hubs.

JACQUELYN: Yes.

[00:40:29] ANNE: Like, there's the school, and The Sweet Spot is a bar, and I think there's a pottery studio in Brooklyn. But it's a world. The Thursday Murder Club, you have your meeting room at the assisted care facility, or it's been a long time since I read that book, where the Thursday Murder Club gathers, and you have the outlying community where the crime takes place. God of the Woods, it is a world. The Shampoo Effect, this tight-knit community. Now I'm just hammering at it now, but do you enjoy that?

JACQUELYN: Yes, totally. I think you're totally hitting the nail on the head with that, that I love being immersed into place and time, however that ends up looking.

ANNE: Okay. Talk to me about food writing.

JACQUELYN: It just always appeals, no matter who is writing it, what it's about, whether it's a gritty, like Anthony Bourdain, or more specific, like Ruth Reichl. Another good one that I read several years back was Finding Freedom by Erin French. That one is more of, like, a personal story of her as a chef, less about the food, more about her as a person.

[00:41:40] I just love all of it. I love hearing how food impacts people and what that could mean for their life, whether they're a chef or just a regular person who enjoys it.

ANNE: I'm ready. Are you ready to do this?

JACQUELYN: I'm excited.

ANNE: Okay. This is going to be learn by trial and error. All right, Jacquelyn, you enjoyed The Thursday Murder Club by Richard Osman, The Sweet Spot by Amy Poeppel, and Save Me the Plums by Ruth Reichl. We decided The God of the Woods by Liz Moore was too well done. It was not for you because she crafted this very specific emotional, intellectual experience that was not for you when you were reading that book. And we don't want you to be put off reading for another month and a half.

And lately you've been reading...Well, we talked a lot about The Shampoo Effect by Jenny Jackson. You mentioned the coffee table book, Good Things by Samin Nosrat. Oh, you're about to finish Into the Blue by Emma Brodie, and you're afraid it's going to leave you in a puddle on the floor. I don't believe those were your exact words.

[00:42:47] What stood out was perhaps you want this experience of emotional resonance, reading about relationships, but you're not sure how to filter for that when you're looking. You love food writing. You love a strong sense of place. You love a portrait of a world. Can I try a few?

JACQUELYN: Yeah, totally.

ANNE: Okay. Now, I'm hoping you haven't read any of these so I can be the one to introduce you, but we'll find out. Have you read any Elizabeth Acevedo?

JACQUELYN: No, but I've heard you talk about her, and it's always been in the background. But no, I haven't actually picked up any of hers.

ANNE: Okay. I am not the boss of you, but I am... I want to say giddy about the possibility for a reading experience where you listen to specifically... I mean, her books are great. She's got a new one coming out. She's amazing. I'll follow her anywhere. But With the Fire on High is the book for you.

[00:43:47] It came out in 2019. It is not a novel in verse, because she's written several, and some readers think she's only written that, though she might describe herself as a poet first, which means she knows how to make the words fall in a pleasing place.

She reads her own work. Her performa... I mean, you feel like... I've wondered how much trust is a factor for you. But Elizabeth Acevedo inspires readerly trust, that I'm not sure where this is going, but I trust you to take me there. And she's gifted at writing about hard things, hard truths, hard relationships in a way that still feels accessible and gentle because she... I haven't even told you about her protagonist, but the side characters in an Elizabeth Acevedo novel, I mean, they have presence and personality, and they bring something specific to the story that helps the protagonist, but also feels real good and supportive to the reader.

[00:44:48] So With the Fire on High is this story about a teenage single mother that subverts every expectation the reader has or that culture has delivered or you read about in the news or... Our protagonist is Emoni. She's 17. She's always been told she has a magical touch in the kitchen, and she wants to be a chef, which feels really inaccessible in a lot of ways, especially she doesn't have the time or money to get trained, even though her school has this new culinary arts class that they might even be going to Spain together, and she wants to do this so badly.

But she's a 17-year-old single mother, and even though she has amazing friends, and just her abuela is so supportive and wonderful and you are going to want to, like, I don't know, carry her around with you until the end of time and have her tell you what to do and give you pep talks when you need it, it's a lot.

[00:45:41] So she's not sure how she's going to be able to work part-time and provide for her child, and pay for this class, and learn to be a chef, but this is an Elizabeth Acevedo novel, and she is going to figure it out. She is Emoni. I believe all Acevedo's novels are in the first person. But she's going to walk you through the recipes that she enjoys making and creating. She's going to give you some real talk about what's hard and also what's really satisfying and what makes her feel like a good life is possible, even if she's dealing with custody issues, and trying to make ends meet, and not getting support she needs from some places, and budding teenage romance, even as a mom.

The way that these things are woven through the story... like the portrait of a world here is incredible. The author's narration does not hurt one bit. The settings are Philadelphia and also Spain, and you just get to sink into a world... Her novels are also not long, but they're immediately like you are in it with the protagonist, who's like, "Listen up. This is what's happening. Pay attention." How does this sound?

[00:46:56] JACQUELYN: Oh, I love what you said that you will trust Elizabeth Acevedo to take you there in the book. That's really standing out to me. That might not know it's happening, but I love that it packs a punch. I think this one sounds really good, and of course, the food element and then the travel element. Yeah, it sounds really great. Excited about this one. Would you say it's also good on audio? Like, would it be worth trying that one on audio or reading it just like a regular book?

ANNE: Oh, when I say the way Elizabeth Acevedo tells you, I am picturing her speaking into your earbuds.

JACQUELYN: Yes. Okay.

ANNE: I mean, her voice on the page, great, but she reads her own work, and her audiobooks are fabulous. I mean, they're the kind of books that people say, "I don't say this often, but oh my gosh, listen to the audio. Don't read the print." People say that about this book.

JACQUELYN: Okay, that's really good to know.

[00:47:53] ANNE: Yes. Please, try this on audio and see how that goes. Readers have different audiobook styles. I mean, some people really love listening to fact and wouldn't dream of doing fiction on audio, and some are the reverse. I'm more the reverse. I like fiction and memoir myself. And that's just me, I don't know, how my brain works, I suppose. But see how it goes. See if this novel works for you.

JACQUELYN: Okay. I'm excited.

ANNE: I'm excited. I hope you try it. I can't wait to hear what you think. Okay. I'm so intrigued by exploring different kinds of food writing and how they can portray pictures of a world. I think often we think of food as being something that... being like a coffee table book. Yeah. Like warm and welcoming and inviting. But food can be more socially and emotionally and sometimes physically complex than that. Thinking about Piglet by Lottie Hazell or Lake Effect by Cynthia D'Aprix Sweeney. I don't believe those are the emotional reading experiences you're looking for right now, either one.

[00:49:00] But I'm wondering about The Reservation by Rebecca Kauffman. Do you know this book? It came out in February 2026.

JACQUELYN: No, I don't know it.

ANNE: This would not be on the table if you didn't enjoy The Shampoo Effect.

JACQUELYN: Okay, fun.

ANNE: It would be a little sharp. The setting of this book is the only fine dining spot in a Midwestern college town. The reservation of the title is a dinner reservation. A big reservation. Like an anticipated reservation. John Grisham is coming to campus, and everyone at the restaurant knows that he has dinner reservations at their restaurant that night, and everybody is excited in a different way, either because like, "Oh, steaks, I know my boss cares about this," or like, "Oh my gosh, I've read every one of his books."

[00:49:53] The characters feel a bunch of ways about this. The school booked a reservation, John Grisham is coming for dinner, and the restaurant is abuzz. But everything goes wrong all day long, beginning in the morning when the one character walks through the back door of the restaurant, opens the walk-in, and goes, "Where are the steaks? The steaks that we're supposed to be serving to John Grisham are missing."

You want a book that's relational. And I'm wondering if this could be frustrating or fascinating to you, because we rotate through the perspectives of, I believe, every person who works at the restaurant, from the newest hire to the owner, long-time bartender, newer pastry chef, we get everybody throughout the day. And so you see this web of relationships, but you're building a picture through the course of the novel. So over the course of a single day...

JACQUELYN: That sounds really good, yeah. You're getting different perspectives, yeah.

[00:51:03] ANNE: So you get everyone's individual perspectives on what's happening through the course of the day. We rotate through all the people who work at the restaurant. There's plenty of workplace drama on an ongoing basis, but also because of the missing steaks. You get backstories of different characters. Some of these people you are going to actively dislike. Like, the owner is terrible. You will feel bad for everybody working with her. But reading about them can still be really fun. There's, of course, food involved in the restaurant.

This book isn't really about John Grisham at all, but why is it so fun that he's referred to specifically by name, and they talk about his books? The specificity of it somehow is delightful. Now, there's a scene that involves a chef because it matters for the restaurant, but also for his own pleasure, makes a perfect crème brûlée at one moment. I think that might be very satisfying.

[00:52:02] I thought the ending was perfect. You can decide and see what you think. But this book that was often so messy I felt like ended in a place of peace and resolution. But you can read it and we discuss, if this sounds like a reading experience you might want to have. What do you think?

JACQUELYN: Oh my gosh, definitely. I'm totally intrigued by this one.

ANNE: This is not the place I would experiment with audio. I mean, you can make your own decisions, but this does not make me think like, "Oh, for sure, try it. Likely to succeed." I don't know about that.

JACQUELYN: That's good to know.

ANNE: Okay, Jacquelyne, I think it's worth mentioning that so many food memoirs are resonant about relationships, such good food writing, or portraits of a world. I wonder if Crying in H Mart is the kind of place you want to go right now. That's one of my favorites. So well done.

JACQUELYN: So well done.

ANNE: Maybe too good, depending.

[00:52:56] JACQUELYN: Yeah. Yeah. It's funny, I started that one a couple years ago, and I didn't finish it. Again, not because I didn't think it was good, but maybe it was just not the right book at the right time. But it did feel along the lines of... Again, I feel like I can't speak to it because I didn't finish it, but it felt very sad to me, and I wasn't ready for that at the time.

ANNE: Okay. Have you read any Bill Buford?

JACQUELYN: No.

ANNE: He wrote Heat about his experience in an Italian kitchen. It was everywhere briefly in maybe like 2015, 2016. That's for the readers who know. But his... I don't know if follow-up is the right word, but he wrote a memoir about his French experience that was published in 2020. It's called Dirt: Adventures in Lyon as a Chef-in-Training, Father, and Sleuth Looking for the Secret of French Cooking. Something I think might appeal here, or maybe I'm projecting, and I'm so sorry if I am, but you tell me, is he accidentally... I mean, he and his wife, who's a wine critic in her own right, he started as a journalist for The New Yorker. And then for an assignment, he worked in a kitchen in some fancy DC restaurant for a time and really did a major career pivot as a result of this.

[00:54:20] So he wrote Heat that was all about Italian cooking. And then he's married to a wine expert, and he decides, "You know, I'm on this path. I'm going to deepen my culinary training." And where do you go if you want to do that? Often the answer is France. So they move to France for six months with their twin three-year-old boys. So you can have your vicarious raising my kids in France experience.

And the plan was six months, but they stay for five years. And so much of this book is about living life in France. But also, he's there to deepen his skills as a chef, which means through this book you get these lush, vividly detailed accounts of these illustrious French kitchens, the culture that makes that food possible, the things that he does not know and has to learn. I listened to him on audio. I really enjoyed his audio narration. But I definitely skipped a few moments in his story of attending a pig slaughter, because they're going to make sausage.

JACQUELYN: Sure, sure.

[00:55:29] ANNE: He befriends the owner of a local bakery. The locals are like, "Who are you, American? We don't care to get to know you." But over time he's welcomed in and deepens relationships. He's got a strong sense of humor, insightful. He's like your tour guide on the ground, just giving you the lay of the land for the food and the city and the nation.

And then some of my favorite parts are what he learned when his kids went to school. What that experience was like, how different it was from anything they might have expected back in New York, and what it was like to live there. What it's like to go to dinner as a family of four when two of them are twin six-year-olds. How does that sound?

JACQUELYN: Oh, that sounds so much fun. I have a particular interest in France right now anyways from a food perspective. Julia Child's My Life in France is one of my very favorites, and so I like that this one is a little bit of a modern, not at all like a twist on her book, but just a modern take on it and somebody else's perspective on food and France and life there. I'm excited about this one. I think that would be fun, and especially maybe to try on audio.

[00:56:44] ANNE: I'm excited about that for you. Speaking of Julia Child and memoirs, Ann Mah has one following explicitly in Julia Child's footsteps called Mastering the Art of French Eating. Maybe-

JACQUELYN: Yes, that's right. I have it on my bookshelf. I've never picked it up, but it has been there, and I've looked at it many times. That would be a fun one to pick up.

ANNE: Okay. Jacquelyn, can I leave you with a book that feels squarely aligned with your three favorites?

JACQUELYN: Yes. Yeah, definitely.

ANNE: Okay. I am wondering about J. Ryan Stradal's The Lager Queen of Minnesota. Come to think of it, we haven't had a new book from him in a while. I think I'm going to look that up next and see if there's anything in the pipeline. But many authors know him from his debut, Kitchens of the Great Midwest. But in this one, his sophomore novel, I believe, it follows several generations of a Minnesota family as they work to wrest their way into the brewing industry.

[00:57:52] And it tears up the family for a time, and this huge rivalry ensues, which means you get to hear lots about the details of why one's beer is better than the other one's beer. But it's not going to end in a bad place. I hope that you will feel this is an author you can trust, that you'll feel like you're in good hands, that it will feel resonant and relational, and that you'll enjoy the places it takes you to. There's lots of humor throughout, lots of fun stories involving food, lots of bar snacks, and of course, there's the beer brewing as they work through figuring out how they're going to make the good stuff.

My favorite logline I've heard in this book is, "Grandma's brewing beer," which is definitely what this book is about. But even though there's plenty of tense moments, there are side characters to rescue our main characters when necessary, which really means the tone is persistently hopeful. And on audio, this is one to try. You have your authentic Midwestern accents.

JACQUELYN: Oh, the best.

[00:58:54] ANNE: I hope this feels like one that grabs you immediately, and then that you can sit back and enjoy hearing how the families are going to work things out interrelationally and also with their business.

JACQUELYN: Yeah. Okay, I'm excited about that one. The Lager Queen of Minnesota.

ANNE: That's the one.

JACQUELYN: Okay. That's fun.

ANNE: All right, Jacquelyn. Of the books we talked about today, With the Fire on High by Elizabeth Acevedo, The Reservation by Rebecca Kauffman, Dirt, the memoir by Bill Buford, and then we snuck in The Lager Queen of Minnesota by J. Ryan Stradal, are any of those sounding good? Are any of those sounding good on audio?

JACQUELYN: Yeah. I think I'm going to try The Lager Queen of Minnesota on audio. I'm excited about that one. I think I'm going to pick that one up next.

[00:59:49] ANNE: I'm glad to hear it. How are you feeling about things? You have any insight?

JACQUELYN: Great. Oh my gosh, I feel like what I'm taking away is particularly what you called out of, like, trusting the author. That is really, really standing out to me. And then the blend of kind of being dropped into a world and getting to spend time there with them. Those two things are really standing out to me. That feels helpful as I'm thinking about future books and what I'm looking for.

ANNE: Okay. Well, I'm glad it seems helpful now. I'm interested in hearing what happens when you proof test that against the reality of your reading life.

JACQUELYN: Yeah, for sure. For sure. Yeah, me too.

ANNE: I've enjoyed this so much.

JACQUELYN: Yeah, me too.

ANNE: Thank you so much for talking books with me today.

JACQUELYN: Yes, thank you so much, Anne. Appreciate it.

[01:00:46] ANNE: Hey, readers. I hope you enjoyed my conversation with Jacquelyn, and I'd love to hear what you think she should read next. Find the full list of titles we talked about today at whatshouldireadnextpodcast.com.

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[01:01:42] Thanks to the people who make this show happen. What Should I Read Next? is created each week by executive producer Will Bogel, Media production specialist Holly Wielkoszewski, social media manager and editor Leigh Kramer, community coordinator Brigid Misselhorn, community manager Shannan Malone, and our whole team at What Should I Read Next? and Modern Mrs. Darcy HQ. Plus the audio whizzes at Studio D Podcast Production.

Readers, that's it for this episode. Thanks so much for listening. And as Rainer Maria Rilke said, "Ah, how good it is to be among people who are reading." Happy reading, everyone.