Please save me from my library holds

AMY CZUBA: I have to tell you, like I said, I just went to the DMV in South Carolina to get my license, and it's been really, really hard not to drive myself immediately over to the local library and get a library card. I know I will do it, but I'm trying really hard not to do it right away.

ANNE BOGEL: Because why?

AMY: Well, because then I'll be back in the problem of getting all the library books.

ANNE: Hey readers, I'm Anne Bogel, and this is What Should I Read Next?. Welcome to the show that's dedicated to answering the question that plagues every reader, what should I read next? We don't get bossy on this show. What we will do here is give you the information you need to choose your next read. Every week we'll talk all things books and reading, and do a little literary matchmaking with one guest.

[00:00:54] Readers, we are airing this conversation on September 1st, which means fall is nearly here, and that means one thing at What Should I Read Next? HQ. It is almost time for our Fall Book Preview. Our eighth annual fall preview releases on Thursday, September 17th to members of Modern Mrs. Darcy Book Club and our Patreon all-inclusive and bonuses and events tiers, plus our à la carte ticket holders.

Once again, our Fall Book Preview experience includes our 12-page digital PDF lookbook and an invitation to our live unboxing event happening at 8:00 p.m. Eastern Time that night, September 17th, plus our unboxing video recording. This year we are also offering a printed, delivered by snail mail lookbook that is available as an add-on to your Fall Book Preview experience order or as a standalone purchase.

[00:01:43] This year's lookbook is different from past editions in two big ways. Maybe three ways, actually. The first is that to a greater extent than in any of our previous spring and fall previews, I wanted this year's lookbook to stand alone and be useful apart from unboxing. And unboxing is fabulous and useful and will do great things for your fall reading life, and I hope you will come. But fall is busy, and if you don't feel like you have time for that, get the lookbook. It's great. It's 6 by 9 inches, 12 pages. It has an inky, kinda hand-stamped, zine-inspired, pleasantly packed with readerly goodness kinda feel, and it's more than a list of titles. I clearly lay out the four and five-star reads I've already enjoyed for the season to come.

And I gotta tell you, this section is a lot bigger than I initially thought it would be before I started reading from the just astounding selections that are on offer this fall. Plus, in the lookbook, there are dozens more of my most anticipated titles and short descriptions, and I do mean short, about each one of them. My team chimes in in our lookbook with their most anticipated fall releases, plus backlist favorites that feel just right for fall. You are going to want to tuck this lookbook in your journal, take it to the library and bookstore, or bring it to coffee with a friend so you can talk about great fall books.

[00:02:58] Now, this year, from the beginning, I also prioritized designing this little lookbook in a way that we could deliver a professionally printed, genuinely useful, readerly, delightful little zine kind of lookbook straight to your mailbox for right about 10 bucks, including shipping. And we did it. I hope the low cost makes it easy to say yes to our lookbook this year.

Mark your calendars, get your à la carte ticket, or if you're not yet a member of one of our communities, sign up now and enjoy our original Fall Book Preview experience as an included perk. Talked a lot about the lookbook in the past couple minutes because that's so different this year, but the full Fall Book Preview experience is worth taking part in, and I hope you will. Sign up now, place your order, or just get more information at modernmrsdarcy.com/fbp for Fall Book Preview. That's modernmrsdarcy.com/fbp.

[00:03:52] Readers, today's guest wrote into our submissions page with a plea we could not say no to. Amy Czuba is recently retired. Not too long ago, she wrapped up her career as a global HR leader, then said goodbye to Massachusetts after living there for nearly 40 years and moved south to Charleston, South Carolina, where she's now enjoying soaking up the history of her new hometown.

She enjoys pairing an active reading life with being active outside, getting out to walk, play golf, and tennis. As you'll hear, she is excited to have more time to read in retirement. She wants to find good books and, in particular, long books that she can really sink into, but her library holds keep wreaking havoc with her well-laid plans.

Amy is here today seeking ideas for those long books that she's craving. She would especially enjoy a book that teaches her about a topic she might not otherwise learn about. Amy also has a goal to read more books from her as-yet-unread pile of titles that she already owns.

[00:04:51] This is really important to her, and she has already identified a major obstacle in making this happen. She cannot resist a shiny new library book that's available for checkout at her local branch. Amy wants to know if I can save her from her library holds. Amy, I hope so. I have ideas. We will see what she thinks. Readers, let's get to it.

Amy, welcome to the show.

AMY: Thank you so much, Anne. I am super-duper excited about being here, and probably still having heart palpitations from that email I got.

ANNE: Well, I'm excited you're excited. Thanks for coming on.

AMY: My pleasure.

ANNE: Amy, we'd like to start by giving our readers a glimpse of who you are. Can you tell us a little about yourself?

AMY: Sure. So I'm calling from Charleston, South Carolina. My husband Steve and I just recently moved here a few weeks ago, after living in Massachusetts for 40 years, so that was a big move for us. But the other recent big thing for me is I just recently retired, couple of months ago. Retired. I worked at a large global technology firm. I used to say I'm the least technical person working at a technology firm.

[00:05:59] I was a director of HR. I had a global team of HR chat reps that I managed. Really super fun job. I miss the people a lot. But one fun fact about that is that I took your podcast format, and I used it for my quarterly check-ins and year-end annual performance reviews. So the format that I used was, tell me three things that went well, one thing then that didn't, and what you've been working on lately for your development. And it was just such a great format to kinda kick off those conversations and kinda hear from people.

ANNE: Ooh. Well, I love that. Thank you.

AMY: You're welcome. I just gave credit in my meetings. I'm like, "You guys know I got this from a podcast that I listen to." And so it was always fun.

When I'm not reading, I enjoy staying active. I like to go for walks, maybe jump on my Peloton bike. My husband and I both golf. He is a little bit better. I'm pretty terrible at it, but I do enjoy it. Play a little tennis. Anything to kinda just keep moving.

[00:06:56] We also recently learned how to play mahjong, which is, you know, sweeping the nation by storm, I think, and that's been a lotta fun. I personally love going on historical tours, so Charleston has been a great city to move to for that. Of course, New England was great, living in Massachusetts all that time. And then, you know, we also just enjoy going to the beach with a great book. That's very fun as well.

Then also, as a family, we love Disney, and we tend to go about once a year, and I always bring, or not always, but I have been known to bring a book in my backpack into the park so that I have something to read while we're standing in line, or while I'm waiting for the rest of the family to get off a ride that I don't like to go on anymore. So always have a book with me, for sure.

ANNE: I mean, I believe that's a rule many of our listeners live by.

AMY: Absolutely.

ANNE: Now, Amy, this is broad on purpose. Would you tell us about your reading life?

[00:07:52] AMY: Sure. I tend to read about 50 books a year. I don't watch a lot of TV, so that gives me time to read. I love to read every night before I go to bed, and I'll sneak it in throughout the day whenever I have a few extra minutes. Like I mentioned, I try not to go anywhere without a book, although the other day we went to the DMV to register our cars and get our new licenses, and I was so wrapped up, Anne, with all of the paperwork that we needed, that I left my book on the counter of our kitchen. Luckily the wait wasn't too long, but as I was driving over there, I'm like, "Oh, shoot, I forgot my book."

ANNE: I think I read half a book the last time I was at the DMV.

AMY: I believe that.

ANNE: I'm glad it wasn't too bad.

AMY: I believe that. And the thing is is I like a hardcover book, so I'm not going to pull up a book on my phone. I don't even use my Kindle anymore really for the most part. I like the actual book. I do like audiobooks too. I mean, love audiobooks. I've read some of my favorite books on audio, but I always listened while I was commuting to work, and so to be honest, I really haven't listened to an audiobook since I retired, so I'm a little sad about that.

[00:08:55] The types of books that I love to read, like my go-to genre has always been historical fiction. That's my favorite. But I really love narrative nonfiction. I like literary fiction. I love biographies and memoirs. And when I want to mix things up or get like a palate cleanser, I love a good mystery or a crime thriller. I feel like those are kinda my comfort reads. When I need to mix something up, I'll go back to a series with the same characters that I just love having them solve another mystery. And I'm the type of reader I don't try and figure out the mystery, so I'm always surprised at the end, which makes it great.

I'm in a couple of book clubs so I tend to end up reading maybe some books that I wouldn't normally choose, and that's always good. I really have to have my books grounded in reality. I don't like any kind of sci-fi or fantasy or magical realism and that type of thing. And I have tried. I mean, like, my husband loves sci-fi and fantasy, and he's tried to get me to read some of those books, and they're just not for me.

[00:09:53] Now, the only exception to that is I recently read Hail Mary on audio, and I absolutely loved it. But the reason why I loved it was because of the characters, not so much the science and all that kind of stuff.

Romance will fill the spot once in a blue moon. I generally don't like it because I find it's just too fluffy, and obviously it's predictable. But, you know, every once in a while it will hit the spot. Bookstores, love going into a bookstore. I can't go into one without buying at least something. But I'm really addicted to my library. I mean, I just walk into a library and think, "Oh my gosh, look at all these free books."

And when I hear about a book that I want to read, I end up just immediately going to my library app and requesting it. And then all of the library books come in at the same time, and I'm walking out of the library with a stack of books and coming into the house, and my husband's looking at me like, "What are you doing?" I'm like, "They all came in at the same time. I can't help it."

[00:10:51] My mom just said to me this morning, "I think the Franklin Library is going to go out of business since you moved." And I said, "That is not true." But I do really enjoy the library and getting the books. I have to tell you, like I said, I just went to the DMV in South Carolina to get my license, and it's been really, really hard not to drive myself immediately over to the local library and get a library card. I know I will do it, but I'm trying really hard not to do it right away.

ANNE: Because why?

AMY: Well, because then I'll be back in the problem of getting all the library books. And I have so many boxes of books here, Anne, that we are unpacking. I've gotten a few of them unpacked. But, like, all these books that I own that I would like to read, and I have not to get to them because I'm always reading the library books. It's a problem.

ANNE: Amy, I think we should tell our listeners that the headline on your submission was, "Please save me from my library holds."

AMY: Yes.

[00:11:51] ANNE: Your relationship with your library sounds amazing, except it seems... I'm imagining that it's not delivering the reading life you want, the reading experiences you want. Is what's the opportunity cost here the right question?

AMY: Yes.

ANNE: Tell me what I need to know.

AMY: Okay, so here's the way my brain thinks. When I go into a bookstore and I'm going to purchase a book, I want to get the very best book I think I'm going to love, that I'm going to pass off to my friends. And so I buy what I think are going to be the top five-star reads. I'm buying those in person, and now they're on my bookshelf. When I think of the library, I'm like, "Oh, well, there's no harm, no foul. If I don't like the book, I'll just request it, and if it's not great, that's fine, because I didn't pay for it."

So what ends up happening is, a lot of times I'm requesting books from the library that, ah, those sound pretty good, but maybe they don't sound amazing. And so I get a lot of pretty good books from the library, but meanwhile, some of the books that I think are going to be the best sit on my bookshelf unread. So it's kind of a mixed bag. I mean, sometimes I get amazing books from the library. And actually, some of the very best books I've gotten from the library, and now I'm sad that they're not on my actual bookshelf. So it's a mixed bag of problems.

[00:13:05] ANNE: Amy, I did notice that when you described what you love about the library, like you walk in, you see what you want, you take it home, I did notice that when you hear about a book you want to read, you request it immediately. When you walk in, you grab what looks good. This sounds so much fun. And also, it sounds like there's not a lot of filter in place. Like, you may more carefully filter... I mean, you just said what you get in the bookstore.

AMY: Mm-hmm.

ANNE: All right. Amy, this is kind of weird for me, but I'm thinking of a clothing shopping analogy. I don't like to clothing-shop. I really like to shop for books. But I'm thinking how when I'm going through the items on the sales floor, there's a lot of stuff that looks like it could be promising, but the next step is I take it into the dressing room and I evaluate it and see if it fits and see if it works, and I take home a fraction, if anything, of what I walked into the dressing room with.

[00:13:57] And I wonder if this is kind of the difference between shopping at the bookstore, where perhaps you're, like, going into the dressing room and vetting them a little more carefully versus requesting things or picking things up at the library where you're like, "Oh, that looks good. That looks good." I guess your dressing room is at home when it comes to the library.

AMY: Yes. I mean-

ANNE: So at some point you have to filter.

AMY: Exactly. Yeah. And I'm filtering really carefully at the bookstore because I'm going to pay money for them, right? You want to make sure it's really, really good, something that I've wanted for a while, that I've heard about for a while. And yeah, with the library books... and you never know when they're going to come in, so it's always a surprise.

You might get something that's great, or you might get something that's marginal, or something's like, "Why did I even request this book? I don't even remember." But it's a low-risk thing because you can just return it if it's not for you.

[00:14:47] The other problem with my library books is, like, I can't tell you how many times I've checked out a book one, two, three times, and I've always had to return it because I never got to it. So that happens to me also.

ANNE: Okay. So it doesn't cost you anything in cash.

AMY: But it costs me my time, because I'm spending time reading those, whereas I've got some books that I own that I'm not making the time to get to, which is crazy.

ANNE: Now, you've said a couple things that we could explore more. I did notice that you said there, you don't know when your holds are going to come in. Would it change things if you could? Because in many library systems, it's possible to know, and even to choose or prioritize when your holds come in. So that is something to explore.

I also notice that you don't always remember why you requested something, and I wonder if implementing just, like, a little jotting. Like, if you're going to request a book, then your rule with yourself is you have to write down, "Oh, I heard about it on What Should I Read Next?", or, "I saw it on Instagram," or "My friend told me about it in my Tuesday book club." You could perhaps, if that would help you.

[00:15:52] AMY: That's a great idea.

AMY: Yeah. And you know what makes me crazy is I don't know how to track that on Goodreads. Like, how do I track where I found that from, or who told me about it? And I don't know if I just don't know how to use the app very well, or if it's really not a function of Goodreads.

ANNE: Okay. Readers, I bet you can tell us. Please go to whatshouldireadnextpodcast.com and go to the show notes on this episode and tell Amy and I in comments. We would love to hear if this is something that you use Goodreads or Storygraph or your online tracking site for. And then a lot of books get returned unread.

AMY: Mm-hmm.

ANNE: I don't necessarily think that's a problem. A lot of books that you buy probably also go unread for a time. I believe that's part of the Save Me From My Library Holds request.

Amy, what would you like your reading life to look like? And I'm specifically thinking what you want to be reading, how you want to feel about what you are reading, and, I mean, even better, if you have this in mind, what role would you ideally like to see the library play in your reading life? How would you like it to support you instead of perhaps be in competition for your attention and priority reads? That's a lot of questions, but what rises to the top?

[00:17:08] AMY: The thing that kinda jumps out at me is an equal trade-off between the books that I own and the library. I mean, I don't want to ignore the library completely, or maybe I make it a reward. Like, "Amy, if you knock off two books from your personal bookshelves that you own, then you can go get a couple books from the library," and make it more of a fair trade-off.

ANNE: You're thinking like a balance?

AMY: Yes.

ANNE: Like a read one from one category and one from the other?

AMY: Yes. Yes, because what happens is I'll get a stack from the library, and then I'll feel like I need to power through six books before I ever go back to one of my books for more.

ANNE: I hear you. I mean, I heard you say you could use the library as a reward, but I think we can hear how much you enjoy going to the library and seeing what you'll find, what have already heard of that's there available for you right then. That's delightful.

AMY: It's fun.

ANNE: And also I imagine you discover new books at the library.

AMY: Yes. Also true.

[00:18:08] ANNE: So we want you to have that. But I do wonder if there is a way, or if this even sounds attractive, to put a beat between seeing the book and thinking, "Oh, I want to read that really soon." Because we're readers, lots of books look good, we probably want to read more than we realistically can. So that is going to be a constant tension. And it's a wonderful thing that you're seeing all these books that sound promising, and also, it doesn't change the fact that you can only read so much.

AMY: Right. All true.

ANNE: Okay, Amy, you know how this works. You're going to tell me three books you love, one you don't, and what you've been reading lately, and then we are going to talk about what you may enjoy reading next. We're going to think about this library dilemma. Is it fair to call it a dilemma?

AMY: Mm-hmm. Of course.

ANNE: And also, you came with another request about a certain kind of book, so we aren't going to forget about that either.

AMY: Okay, great.

ANNE: Okay. How did you choose these?

[00:19:05] AMY: All right. It was funny, when I went and looked at the list of books that I had submitted with my form, I was like, "Oh, gosh, I put that on there?" So it was kind of funny. And really it was only a couple of months ago, so you'd think I would've remembered.

Anyway, the first book that I chose is called Challenger: A True Story of Heroism and Disaster on the Edge of Space by Adam Higginbotham. This is an example of narrative nonfiction, which I really, really love. I first came across this book at my favorite bookstore back in Massachusetts, which is An Unlikely Story in Plainville, and it's... I noticed it because I had read another book by this author called... well, it was called something about Chernobyl. I forget the total title of-

ANNE: Oh, Midnight In?

[00:19:51] AMY: Yes, Midnight In Chernobyl. Exactly. And that was excellent. So I saw this one, and, you know, I'll just say that those of us of a certain age, we all remember exactly where we were when the Challenger shuttle exploded. And that was in 1986.

And if you're too young to really remember this, this shuttle exploded seconds after takeoff, and all seven crew members obviously were killed. The reason why this particular shuttle flight was so in the news was because it featured Christa McAuliffe, who was a high school science teacher, and she was the first-ever teacher to go into space. So the publicity around this was huge.

This book follows the seven crew members and their lives, so you really get to know all of them. Also, the history of the space program, and they go way back decades. And it's a really gripping account of NASA and how the space program worked. And all of the mismanagement and miscommunication and programmatic decisions and problems that were made all along the way, the funding issues, the political pressures, the go, no-go decision makers, the whistleblowers, everything that contributed to the disaster.

[00:21:04] And if you remember back to that time, we all knew, like, immediately came out, oh, it was the O-rings, the O-rings. So we all knew it was the O-rings. When you read this book and you kinda see the progression of all the problems, it is amazing, and it was fascinating and it was gripping, and it really read like a thriller-type of story. And so I just really love narrative nonfiction about a topic where the author just does such detailed research, but then they put the story together in such a consumable and accessible format and so easy to read. I just loved it.

ANNE: Okay. Thanks for telling us about that. I didn't realize that was the same author as Midnight in Chernobyl. This is the first book I've read by him. Amy, what's the second book you love?

AMY: The second book I chose is The Bee Sting by Paul Murray. This was one of the books I was honestly surprised that I had on here, but it really represents a book that I cannot stop thinking about. When I was done with the book, I didn't even know what to think about it. I was just kinda so blown away.

[00:22:08] But it is a story... takes place in Ireland. It's a story of a family of four: a mom, a dad, a son, and a daughter. The time period is recent, like after a very bad economic downturn in Ireland, and this family is falling apart for a whole bunch of reasons, which you will learn reading it. But it's really interesting in that it's told in like four sections. So the four different points of view, one for each member of the family.

It starts off with the daughter. She's a teenage daughter, and she is finishing up what's the equivalent of high school in Ireland and getting ready to go off to college, and of course, just thinking about herself and everything like that, but also thinking about her family. Her family used to be a more affluent family in the town. I think they owned a car dealership. But with this economic downturn, they're losing their money. And so all of a sudden, things are happening in their family, and it's hard for her to deal with, of course. So you get her perspective.

[00:23:03] Then the book shifts to the perspective of the son, and I think he was about 12 in this story. He's just really innocent, and he's lonely, and he's looking for friendship, both in person and online, and he's dealing with a local bully, and he's trying to understand everything that's going around him, too.

Then the third perspective is from the mom, and you get the backstory of her life and how it ended up with Dickie, her husband. Things start to get pieced together when you kind of see this whole background there, things that you really had no idea.

And then the fourth perspective, fourth part of the story is from Dickie, who is the father, and boy, does he have some dark secrets. And you get his backstory, and then you kinda see why he has ended up in such a mess. Then at the end of the book, all four of them come together in this one time, this one night. I'm just going to say that if you read this book, you have to buddy read this with someone or do it with a book club because you are absolutely going to need to discuss the ending with somebody.

[00:24:12] I had listened to this on Audible, and then it just ends. I'm like, "Wait, what?" And I'm like, "I need to discuss this with someone." Of course, I knew no one who had read it at the time, so I couldn't discuss it with anybody. I think that's why it took me such a long time to kind of really digest it, but I can't stop thinking about it. And these characters are so vividly fleshed out.

But this is a stressful book to read. Bad things kind of happen to this family, and they are making some poor decisions along the way. And I just remember, I think it was particularly the little boy's segment, and I just kept saying, "No, no, no, don't do that. Don't do that." It was a little bit stressful. But I mean, it's just brilliant writing. I love anything that takes place in Ireland, so that was also great. But that was my experience with The Bee Sting.

ANNE: I do not understand the word funny being attached to this book, which I've seen. I mean, I don't know. What did you-

AMY: I would never think of that word as the way I would describe it.

[00:25:12] ANNE: I've seen this slotted as humorous fiction, and I do not understand.

AMY: Oh, no.

ANNE: I found this riveting, but also just completely harrowing.

AMY: Riveting in that I had to find out what was going to happen to them at the end, like how this was all going to wrap up. I had to find out.

ANNE: It was tense?

AMY: Yeah, tense.

ANNE: It was such a tense reading experience. And a very long reading ex... okay, this is a very long book. Talk to me about that.

AMY: Oh, I love long books. I just love to sink into a really long book because I do, I think it gives time for the author to really give you the backstories, give you a lot of descriptions of what's going on, give you the character development that I love. I just love sinking into a really long story. Now, this one, like I said, I listened to it on Audible, and sometimes on Audible you don't realize how long it is. And then when I saw the book in the bookstore, I'm like, "Oh, wow, this was a longer one."

[00:25:59] I love long books. I mean, I generally think anything under 400 pages is like a rip-off, you know? It's like, give me a 500-pager plus. And when my friends will say, "Oh my gosh, we can't read that for book club, it's 500 pages," I'm like, "So?" To me, that's average. I just love long books, and I always have. I can remember, I think I was in college, sitting by the pool reading ...And Ladies of the Club, which is like a 1,200-page book, and thinking nothing of it.

ANNE: Okay, noted on the long books. Amy, what did you choose as your final favorite?

AMY: Okay, my final favorite is The Heart's Invisible Furies by John Boyne, and this really represents my favorite book from one of my very favorite authors. I have recommended this book to everybody, and I've bought it as gifts, and I just adored it.

It's another Ireland story. It's really the story of one man's life, and his name is Cyril, and it's got an interesting format in that it's told in increments of every seven years. It actually starts when his mother is pregnant with him, so that's the first section, and then it jumps to when he's seven, and then after a little while, it jumps to when he's 14. Then it jumps to when he's 21, and it goes throughout his entire life until he's of older age.

[00:27:20] Not only do you get to follow his life, you know, he's got a lot of struggles, he has a lot of joys, really great character development in this, but it also takes you on a journey through Ireland from the 1940s to the current day. I don't think it's a spoiler alert to say that Cyril is a homosexual man, and so you deal a lot with that in Ireland, the social norms.

It was illegal for so many decades, the Catholic Church and the power of the Catholic Church. You really just get so much texture and context about the different time and period. He's just a character you just love him, but sometimes you want to shake him. Like, "Cyril, why are you doing that? Don't." You know?

I just remember listening to this on audio, and I was driving to work, and I was almost to work, and the book was just wrapping up, and I just remember the tears coming down my face, and I'm like, "Okay, Amy, get it together. Now you have to go into work." You know what? My notes here, I'm like, "I am not a re-reader," but I really feel like this is definitely one I should re-read because I just loved it. It's wonderful.

[00:28:27] ANNE: All right. Amy, now would you tell us about a book that wasn't right for you? And it's important to hear why, if you're able to put your finger on it. Like, did it not align with your taste? Was the timing all wrong? Was it about a topic it turns out you don't want to read about in literature? What did you choose?

AMY: I feel like I need to duck because everybody is going to throw a rotten tomatoes at me, but-

ANNE: I hear you stalling.

AMY: The one I chose was Jayber Crow by Wendell Berry. The reason why I chose it, it was my most recent not-for-me. It certainly wasn't the worst. And as I was kinda reviewing some books for this podcast, I was looking back through my Goodreads, and boy, there are some duds in there that I have read. But this was just my most recent not for me.

Honestly, I think it was an issue of timing and my expectations and what I was hoping for in a book. I had recently read Theo of Golden, which I loved. It was just like a warm hug, and, you know, there's a lot of tough things happening in the world these days, and I just thought Theo of Golden was wonderful. And I think I was looking to replicate that feeling, to be honest.

[00:29:35] So I had heard about Jayber Crow on your podcast, and specifically, the anniversary episode, I think had a number of different guests come on and give a quick blurb about why they loved it so much. So when I was at a bookstore and I saw it, I thought, "Oh, this sounds perfect for me," so I grabbed it. And here I am reading one of my actual books, which was great but just not enough was happening for me.

This book takes place in an early 1930s small-town life, I think, in Kentucky. Starts with the main character as a boy, and then he grows up, and he becomes the town barber. It's definitely one of those kinda just character-driven stories, which I do tend to love. I don't have to have action-packed plots and things like that, but it just not enough was happening for me.

[00:30:20] I think maybe it was too close following on the heels of Theo of Golden, which was, you know, one of those nice soft books, and I think I just needed something different. Also I had a stack of library books staring at me in the face on the counter too. I got about halfway through the book, and every night I would get into bed, and I'd be like, "Ugh, I guess I should read this." And I'm like, "Amy, you're clearly not loving this book. Just set it aside. It's not for you right now." And so I did. I set it aside. It wasn't for me right now.

ANNE: Okay. Amy, I heard you reference ideas like it was slow, leisurely paced. You said you were seeking a read-alike, so something charming, whimsical.

AMY: Mm-hmm.

ANNE: Okay. Wendell Berry might be gentle, but... oh gosh, I remember laughing once when I saw Jayber Crow in a grouping of books about sad, small towns. And I thought, "Wow." I mean, that's not wrong, but also, what company to keep. It's very character-driven, very leisurely paced and that was not what you were seeking at that time.

[00:31:31] AMY: You know what? I just kept thinking to myself, I need something to happen. I need some more action. And I believe I set it down, and I went right to, like, a mystery thriller. So the timing just wasn't right.

ANNE: Okay. Also, it doesn't crack 400 pages.

AMY: No. But that's okay. I mean, I read plenty of books that don't, but you know.

ANNE: So not a rip-off, but not for you.

AMY: Yeah, exactly. Not a rip-off, but it wasn't for me.

ANNE: You are allowed to declare Wendell Berry not to be to your taste on this podcast.

AMY: Okay, thank you.

ANNE: All right. All right. Amy, what have you been reading lately?

AMY: I feel like I've been on a really great streak. I just read The Whistler, finished that a couple of weeks ago. It's a wonderful story. Again, short story. I mean, it's not a short story, but I mean, it's... I don't even know if it's 300 pages. But it's by Ann Patchett. I just adore everything that she writes. Really, really great contemporary story.

[00:32:25] Then I read The Calamity Club by Kathryn Stockett, and that was an easy five-star read for me. I mean, just really hit all the things that I love in a book: historical fiction, great characters. This book is really... it's about 1930s Mississippi and women's rights or lack thereof and things that used to happen all the time, but truly it's a story about sisterhood. I just loved it. And that's a big book. That was over 600 pages, and I flew through it because it was so good, and then I was really sad when it was over. So that was a great experience.

And then just the other night, I finished John of John by Douglas Stuart, and that one was really good too. It is a story about a young man who comes from a small Scottish island, and most of the people there are weavers or sheep herders, and they don't have a lot of money. But he was one of the few people that got to go off to a college, and now he's finished college, he's broke, he doesn't have a job, and he has to return home to the island. And he doesn't want to.

[00:33:28] He's kinda coming back with his tail between his legs. He doesn't want to go, but now he's gotta acclimate himself again to life with his family and his friends and life on the island. Really great story. Again, great character development, such a sense of place. Like you could just imagine these Scottish islands. That one was really good too, so I definitely recommend that. So had a good run.

ANNE: All right. I'm glad to hear it. Amy, what are you looking for in your reading life right now? I have to say, this is the place where we want to talk about your library holds and your long books. Is there something else you want to throw into the mix? Now's the moment.

AMY: No. I mean, I really, really want some long books. Now that I'm retired, in theory I should have a lot more time to read, and so should give me plenty of time to sink into a really great long book. Although, you know, with this recent move I haven't had quite as much reading time as I thought I would have, but that's going to settle down very, very soon.

[00:34:27] I find that heading into the fall and the winter tends to be a great time to also read long books. You just feel cozier and can really settle in with them. So long books. I'd love maybe a historical fiction selection, like some big long sweeping saga. I would love a narrative nonfiction.

What I have kind of discovered about myself is that I kind of love a book about a random topic that I know absolutely nothing about, if the author can really turn it into a compulsive, readable story. A few examples of that were The Boys in the Boat, which is about a crew team from the University of Washington in the 1930s, and I thought it was absolutely riveting. Say Nothing by Patrick Radden Keefe, which is all about Ireland and the IRA, which I knew nothing about as well. And then I also read a book called Everything Is Tuberculosis. I forget who the author is on that one.

ANNE: It's John Green.

[00:35:23] AMY: But it was all about tuberculosis. And it's like, who knew I'd be so interested in this? That's a really short book, but it really packed a punch. I loved it. So really looking for things like that, that I can really sink into. I love to learn when I read, so something that I can learn about, and maybe a mix between new-to-me books and maybe things that are currently sitting on my shelves. Who knows?

ANNE: Okay. And we want long bo... not all long books, but long books.

AMY: Yeah, long books.

ANNE: Okay. Amy, since you said in your submission that you're not getting to the books you own and you want to prioritize some of those, we asked you to send some of those books that you really wanted to get to sooner rather than later. And I'm looking at those lists. So we're going to draw some from there also.

AMY: Okay, great.

ANNE: Okay, let's recap real quick. The books you loved were Challenger by Adam Higginbotham, The Bee Sting by Paul Murray, and The Heart's Invisible Furies by John Boyne. Jayber Crow by Wendell Berry was not for you, and lately you've enjoyed Ann Patchett's The Whistler, Kathryn Stockett's The Calamity Club, and John of John by Douglas Stuart.

[00:36:29] You have referenced Irish fiction over and over. We've heard about your love for narrative nonfiction, and I'm looking at this... It's not a long list of books. I think there's maybe 16 to 18 on this list. But you did send some books that you thought you may enjoy reading next.

Also, I want to say, we are facing a new literary season, and there is so much Irish fiction coming out. Now, some of it is short, some of it is short, but I don't know, I wouldn't call Louise Kennedy a rip-off at any length.

AMY: No, she's good. I've read some of hers.

ANNE: As just one example of many. So I think there is going to be more on the way, more we'll talk about this on the show, more that I can't wait to talk about in Fall Book Preview, that I think will really pique your interest. But let's look at these titles.

The first one that jumped out to me, I think especially with your book clubs ringing in my ears, was Caste by Isabel Wilkerson that could've been on your list for... I mean, not forever. Some of these books are quite old, and this one just came out not much longer than five years ago. Okay, I heard you gasp. What's that about?

[00:37:38] AMY: That has been sitting on my bookshelf probably since it came out. I was going to guess five years ago, but four or five years ago. I think I bought it right away, because I loved her other book, The Warmth of Other Suns. So when this came out, I'm like, "Oh, for sure I'm going to buy it," and it has sadly sat on my bookshelf for so long, and I look at it all the time, I'm like, "What is wrong with you, Amy? Just grab it and read it." So, yes, tell me more about why I should put that to the pop- top of my list.

ANNE: Well, I think it's also ringing in my ears because I was in conversation earlier this week with a group of readers sharing the books that prompted the best book club conversations they ever had. And Caste by Isabel Wilkerson came up several times.

AMY: Okay.

ANNE: If you enjoyed The Warmth of Other Suns, I felt like this one was even more story-driven. I know that readers will often use or hear the phrase, like, "Oh, this is nonfiction that reads like a novel." And Isabel Wilkerson does not write like that, nor is she trying to, but she does this incredible job of writing these narratives that feel like she's telling you an important story that makes you want to lean in and say, like, "Just keep it coming. Just keep talking. Tell me more. Tell me more."

[00:38:56] But for those who've already read The Warmth of Other Suns, or those who haven't, this feels either like the obvious next thing to read next. But no prior experience with her work is required. But she tells this story about how... well, one formative experience in her own life, and also one important conversation helped her understand that maybe we shouldn't be evaluating the history of the United States through the lens of racism, but perhaps America has been shaped by a hidden caste system.

Here she's arguing for this idea that if you want to understand US social hierarchy, which might sound a little textbooky, but Isabel Wilkerson is not dry when it comes to explaining these concepts that, like, we are immersed in and living in, and describing how people live their lives and think about being human and think about being in society and relationships. I mean, Amy, I know from what you enjoy reading that this is something that you find inherently fascinating.

[00:39:52] But because of this nudge she was given in a conversation long ago, she realized that understanding the United States as operating under a caste system unlocks things in her own mind and in what she's found many people's understandings. So what she describes a caste system as being a deeply entrenched, but totally invented method of categorizing people by birth.

Here she links the caste systems of India, Nazi Germany, places that we may think, like, "Oh, of course," while excluding the US from there. But she says, like, "No, it's how the United States fits into this picture," and just does this deep dive into caste and also history, class, race, social norms. What I think really makes the book for many readers is she explains the concepts, but the stories she tells that really helps them make sense, sink in, come to life, not only are vivid and fascinating and sometimes horrible, but also I think really cement the ideas in readers' minds, where it's the kind of book that sticks with you for the long haul.

[00:41:07] So you know how you ended up putting this on your shelf, and what you had in mind when you thought about maybe reading it. Like, how is it sounding right now in that light?

AMY: Oh, it sounds amazing. I'm like, "What have I been doing letting that linger on my shelf for so long?" It sounds amazing.

ANNE: Well, we want to save you from your library holds and you know, the newer, shinier arrivals. But I hope you find this to be one that has earned its spot, and that there's a good reason it's been hanging out for a while.

AMY: Great.

ANNE: So you recently loved The Calamity Club.

AMY: Mm-hmm.

ANNE: Kin by Tayari Jones isn't by any means a readalike, but this has so much in common with The Calamity Club. It's sadder for sure. But I think what you'll find here is you've got historical fiction, great characters that you are deeply invested in from early on. You've got a historical setting, not the same, but I think pleasantly different while being pleasantly similar. But as far as sisterhood stories goes, oh, my. How did this end up on your list?

[00:42:11] AMY: Interestingly enough, I belong to a... it's not really a book club, but Ann Patchett, who owns a bookstore in Nashville called Parnassus, she has a monthly club that you can join. It's called The First Editions Club.

ANNE: The First Editions Club.

AMY: Yes. And so every month she sends a book, and it's been signed by the author, and Ann writes this really wonderful letter in there about why she picked the selection and what she thought about it and why she thought it'd be good for this book club. So every month I get one of these, one of these books. I haven't had it that long, but I haven't gotten to it either.

ANNE: Okay. Well, it's only 384 pages. But I mean, Tayari Jones, never a rip-off. My reading experience, which might not be the same as yours, it took me a little bit to figure out which character was which, but then I was off and running and just drank it right down.

AMY: Oh, good.

[00:43:05] ANNE: This is a platonic love story. The two women, who are so c... when I say sister story, I'm thinking about Vernice and Annie. They're two girls from small town Louisiana who feel psychically bonded in that they both lost their mothers when they were babies. One was murdered, one ran off to Memphis, but they are both gone. And on the brink of adulthood, Vernice goes to Spelman and marries rich; Annie runs away from home to try and find her mother, and she just encounters one devastating obstacle after another on her journey.

But they stay in touch through it all, and they remain the most important in each other's lives. But then when one of them really needs the other, like, whoo, the story enters a whole other... I think you may really enjoy it.

AMY: Ooh.

ANNE: It would be an excellent companion to The Calamity Club. I also think it would be an excellent companion to readers, if you remember me talking about These Heathens by Maya Mackenzie from last year's Summer Reading Guide. Not readalikes, but just books that really feel companionable. How's that sounding?

[00:44:11] AMY: Oh, it sounds amazing. Right up my alley.

ANNE: I'm glad to hear it. I am wondering about doing a... I mean, Middlemarch was jumping out at me. I didn't want to recommend any of your series installments because... you know best there. But I will say, many What Should I Read Next? listeners would definitely say, like, "Don't sleep on that, Amy." Like, "What are you doing? Why is that, why is that book hanging out?"

Middlemarch jumped out at me. It's a book that's referenced so often in literature, and I think I... That sounded a little nerdy. What I mean is there are so many references in mainstream books and also very literary works about... You know, are those even different? Not really, but Middlemarch references abound. I just finished reading Jane Smiley's 13 Ways of Looking at the Novel, which I know I mentioned here. She talks at length about Middlemarch.

[00:45:01] You know what Middlemarch does? Okay, I think this is why it's jumping out for you. As you've been discussing the books you enjoy and why, I've been wondering how much you might enjoy seeing authors analyze real events, history, people and their actions, the whys behind what we do. I wonder if there's something there about Project Hail Mary, and why that was the exception in the sci-fi fantasy you don't usually enjoy, and why perhaps Wendell Berry wasn't it for you. But I am wondering. Is there anything there?

AMY: The only thing that worries me about Middlemarch, and you can tell me one way or the other, sometimes these classical books are hard to read because the language is from the 1800s, and it takes a while to get into. Is this a book that I will find difficult to read, or will I be able to kinda, like, after a little bit just kinda sink right into the language and totally get it?

ANNE: Ooh, okay. I'm sorry to say I don't know, because I listened to Juliet Stevenson read it to me. And I find that when the language in classic books is not so smooth to the modern ear, a skilled narrator who, like, it just rolls off their tongue, it eliminates that gap between how we talk in the... I mean, George Eliot wrote this in the 1870s. She was writing about the 1830s. It feels more current.

[00:46:23] But I will say many readers say that part of the pleasure of reading Middlemarch is just the consistently striking sentences and turns of phrases, and how it just feels good on every line. And that doesn't sound like a description people give to archaic language.

AMY: Right. Right. That's interesting what you said about audio versus, on the written page, because I found that true with Pride and Prejudice. I could listen to it on Audible. It was great. It was one of those times when I think I had it from the library, or... At any case, after a couple of weeks, the audiobook just got scooped off my device, like my time ran out on it, and I wasn't quite done. And I thought, "Well, I'm just going to pick up the book from the library, and I'll just finish reading the book."

I picked up the book, I opened it up, I'm like, "I can't read this." It was just too difficult to read on the page, but the audio was amazing. So that's something to think about.

[00:47:19] ANNE: That's a common experience. And the only thing that really makes me hesitate on Middlemarch, I mean, if you hadn't said you hadn't listened to an audiobook since you retired, I'd say, "Amy, just pick up the audio." But that being what it is right now, yeah, I leave that in your hands.

AMY: Okay. Well, I can just pick it up off my bookshelf as well. So maybe that's- Oh, that's-

ANNE: Oh, yeah, so true. Yeah, give it a try and see what you think. I wonder if you may find that worth your while. And at 900 pages, it is definitely not a rip-off.

AMY: Right.

ANNE: Okay. So you also mentioned in your submission that something that you really noticed about pulling that list of books together that are on your shelves, that it's made you realize how much you love nonfiction books about random topics you know nothing about. And I was wondering if we might want to end with a few titles in that direction.

AMY: Yes, please. I would love that.

[00:48:12] ANNE: Okay. I kinda want to ask you what random topics you don't know anything about. But let's do three that are pretty different. Does that sound okay?

AMY: Okay. Yeah.

ANNE: Okay. Have you read anything by David Grann? Killers of the Flower Moon is his best-known. But-

AMY: Yes, I read Killers.

ANNE: Okay. How about The Lost City of Z, his earlier work?

AMY: No.

ANNE: Okay. The subtitle of this is A Tale of Deadly Obsession in the Amazon. This is about an expedition in search of an ancient civilization into the Amazon wilderness in the 1920s. The whole crew vanished, and they were unfound for many years because the forest was thick and it wasn't clear exactly where they'd gone. But the lead on this crusade left a few clues behind about the undiscovered city he was seeking that he called Z.

[00:49:08] So for many years, scientists and explorers have been looking for what happened to this expedition and what he might have discovered before his disappearance. So, David Grann found this collection of diaries of the lead on this expedition, and he embarked on his own quest to solve the mystery, and he found out he's not the only one. Like, other people are in the jungle looking to find out the truth of what happened 100 years ago. Bum, bum, bum. Okay, how does that sound to you?

AMY: I've never heard of this. I've never heard of The Lost City of Z. I didn't know that there was a crew that disappeared. This sounds exactly like something I would love because... Except for... you know, one thing about reading books about the Amazon is I do worry about the snakes.

ANNE: Oh.

AMY: I don't know if they got attacked by snakes or not. Or there are probably references to snakes, but that's... I'll just kinda pass over that when I get to the snake part if there are snakes in there. It's a jungle, right? Yeah, there's going to be snakes.

ANNE: It is. It is a jungle.

AMY: But yeah, no, this sounds great.

ANNE: The snakes might not be the worst part.

AMY: Okay, okay.

[00:50:11] ANNE: I mean, you said topics you don't know anything about, okay?

AMY: Yes.

ANNE: I might recommend a shorter book like Trash by Simon Paré-Poupart from the Summer Reading Guide, but I wasn't going to, because that's so short. That might be unwelcome. But it's there. It's out there. Now, I'm just really apologizing for recommending a book about parking, but I do wonder if you might enjoy- something super nerdy like The High Cost of Free Parking by Donald Shoup. It's 800 pages about the economic structures that are invisible to most of us that support the use of the car in many communities, including the one I live in, likely including the one you live in.

This is the kind of book that you read... I mean, you read a chapter, and then you think about it every time you walk down a city street. But he evaluates parking, mostly in the United States, how we got where we are, how decisions are made, how making different decisions impacts how people respond and what the communities look like. Is this sounding terrible or perhaps intriguing?

[00:51:21] AMY: No, this sounds really, really good. I don't know if this is the same book that I, or if I read a phrase about something that says people don't realize that when you go to like a Walmart or a big box store and you have to park in that giant parking lot, the distance you walk from your car into that store is no different than the distance you might walk on a city street or a small town downtown area that you have to park and walk to. But people don't like to go to the small downtown areas because they think they're parking so far away from the store. Is this along the same lines, or is this the same concept from this book?

ANNE: It's not dissimilar. But what Donald Shoup is going to do is he's going to say, "Why is the parking lot so big in the first place?" How does the zoning work? Yeah. What does it mean? Why is it in the front and not the back? What could be different? How does consumer behavior change when we alter the variables? What happens when we change the zoning laws to restrict fewer parking? Why are the zoning laws what they are? How'd they get that way in the first place? What changes when you charge for it? Oh my goodness. Right now, as we record, they've just announced that they are going to start charging for some suburban mall parking in my community, and-

[00:52:33] AMY: What? People must be losing their minds.

ANNE: People feel a way about it. But I think Donald Shoup says, "Read this book, you'll never look at a parking spot the same way again." 100% true.

AMY: Oh, that sounds so good to me. It's funny because I just moved to a new community, and we are... This community, it's within the city of Charleston, but we're far away from the downtown city of Charleston. We're a little bit further up. And it's all being developed. We're kinda one of the earlier communities in here, and it's all going to be developed over the next 10 to 20 years, and it's going to change so much.

But we're very close to Mount Pleasant, which compared to the Northeast... So if you live in a city in the Northeast, the big joke is all the towns are designed around the original cow paths when people had their cows grazing in the town common, and the cows would walk home, and that's how all the roads came to be.

[00:53:28] I mean, it's so hard to find your way around in Massachusetts if you don't know where you're going because the roads make no sense. But when you come down here to Mount Pleasant, for example, it is a community that has been developed over the last 20 years or so, and it just makes so much more sense the way they've designed like the shopping and the roads that get you through. I'm just so curious about this topic. Who knew I was going to be so curious about this? But we're living in an area that's going to be going through this development, and it will give me a lot to think about, for sure.

ANNE: I'm really interested to hear how what you find in these pages will connect with the two most recent places you've lived. Like what a fascinating contrast, too. So you could see some of the differences he's talking about, and sometimes advocating for, sometimes just observing, play out before your eyes and in your experience.

AMY: Awesome.

[00:54:22] ANNE: Finally, knowing your love of History, I'm wondering about something by Andrea Wulf. We did talk about... We. I talked about The Traveller in the summer reading guide, but I think The Invention of Nature: Alexander von Humboldt's New World would be a really interesting pick for you. It's pleasantly long at... It's almost 600 pages. Is this a book you're familiar with?

AMY: I have never heard of this.

ANNE: Okay. So The Invention of Nature, this concept, of course, is what... you know what nature is, I know what nature is. But Von Humboldt really changed the way that we think about the natural world. So now he's known as the Father of Modern Environmentalism. He was certainly the most famous scientist of his age. He was born in the late 18th century, and just had this innate love for outdoor exploration, and he traveled the globe just searching for unusual environments.

[00:55:23] Amy, I'm noticing a kinship with you, who likes to read about random topics you don't know anything about, just for the pleasure of learning new things. I mean, he got around. He was friends with Thomas Jefferson. He was an inspiration to Darwin and Thoreau, and he really wanted to help people understand our relationship to the natural world and helped us think about it.

So this is a biography that also takes you by, through following his life through scientific discoveries, through a variety of sometimes familiar, but sometimes really fascinating far-flung places, and also into the Royal Court of his patrons, for example. How's that sounding?

AMY: It sounds really good. I've never heard of him. I've never heard of the book. It definitely sounds like something I would learn a lot from in a really great way.

[00:56:15] ANNE: Andrea Wulf has this gift for combining these really deeply researched topics with their emotional meaning, and it makes for really satisfying non-textbooky kind of reads.

AMY: Ooh. It's going to make me want to look her up right after this call and see what else she has written too.

ANNE: I recommend it. I recommend it.

AMY: That's great.

ANNE: Okay. Can we look at where we are?

AMY: Yes.

ANNE: All right. So we're looking to save you from your library holds by focusing on some books already on your shelves, and also books that you would be glad to know about that maybe aren't going to be face out at your local library or not going to hunt you down on Instagram, but might be right up your alley, especially focusing on those nonfiction reads that you really love to read about... How would you finish that sentence? Unknown topics to you?

AMY: Yes, yes.

[00:57:13] ANNE: Okay. So from your own shelves, we talked about Caste by Isabel Wilkerson, Kin by Tayari Jones, the shortest book we talked about, almost, but not quite 400 pages, and Middlemarch by George Eliot. So we have two novels in the midst of this nonfiction

AMY: I think from that group, I'm going to grab Caste first because-

ANNE: I love that choice for you.

AMY: I am. It's been on there for so long. It's always looking at me. I've always wanted to grab it, and this is the perfect time to grab it and read it. So I think from that group, Caste.

ANNE: Okay. And then to satisfy your realization that you love nonfiction books about random topics you know nothing about, we talked about The Lost City of Z by David Grann, The High Cost of Free Parking by Donald Shoup, and The Invention of Nature by Andrea Wulf. What do you think about those?

[00:58:14] AMY: I think I'm going to go for The High Cost of Free Parking.

ANNE: Not sad about it. Very curious to know what you think.

AMY: I mean, obviously all of them will end up on the list, and I'll definitely get to all of them, but for some reason, The High Cost of Free Parking just really sounds fascinating to me right now.

ANNE: I love it. All right. Amy, this has been a pleasure.

AMY: Oh.

ANNE: How are you feeling about your library situation?

AMY: You know what? I am super excited. Now I can go to the library and get a library card without feeling guilty about it, and enjoy the new libraries that we have down here in Charleston. And I can't wait.

ANNE: All right. I'm so excited to hear it. Thank you for talking books with me today.

AMY: Oh, thank you for having me. It was absolutely so much fun.

[00:59:02] ANNE: Hey, readers. I hope you enjoyed my discussion with Amy, and I'd love to hear what you think she should read next. Find the full list of titles we talked about today at whatshouldireadnextpodcast.com.

Keep up with what's new around What Should I Read Next? HQ on Instagram, where you will find us @WhatShouldIReadNext. We also send out updates right to your email inbox. Join our list at whatshouldireadnextpodcast.com/newsletter.

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[00:59:44] Thanks to the people who make this show happen. What Should I Read Next? is created each week by executive producer Will Bogel, Media production specialist Holly Wielkoszewski, social media manager and editor Leigh Kramer, community coordinator Brigid Misselhorn, community manager Shannan Malone, and our whole team at What Should I Read Next? and Modern Mrs. Darcy HQ. Plus the audio whizzes at Studio D Podcast Production.

Readers, that's it for this episode. Thanks so much for listening. And as Rainer Maria Rilke said, "Ah, how good it is to be among people who are reading." Happy reading, everyone.