An epic birthday bookstore roadtrip

[00:00:00] ANNE BOGEL: Hey readers, I'm Anne Bogel and this is What Should I Read Next?. Welcome to the show that's dedicated to answering the question that plagues every reader, what should I read next? We don't get bossy on this show. What we will do here is give you the information you need to choose your next read. Every week we'll talk all things books and reading and do a little literary matchmaking with one guest.

Readers, welcome back to our July series brought to you by the What Should I Read Next? time machine. We are going back, sometimes way back in our archives, to share episodes with four of our team members. But here's the wrinkle. At the time we recorded these conversations, no one involved had any idea that they would be on our team eventually. What you're listening to is often the first conversations I had voice to voice with these individuals who are now such a big part of my life, my reading life, and the work I do.

[00:01:13] I'm really enjoying this blast from the past, not just because I get to listen to these wonderful conversations for the first time, but because now I know everything that happened after and I know how these individuals read today.

And I don't completely know how they read today, and so I'm really excited about what we're doing in Patreon corresponding to these episodes. Go to Patreon.com/whatshouldiread next to sign up, if you're not yet participating in this way and supporting our independent podcast in this way.

But I am hosting follow-ups with these team members, and one of the questions I'm going to be asking them, in addition to what's changed since your episode, how do you feel about it looking back now, like what did you think, what did it feel like to relisten, I'm going to be asking them, if you are on the show today, how would you describe your taste? What are the three books you love and one book you don't? What have you been reading lately? We're going to have those conversations and I'm really excited about it.

We also have so much good stuff happening in Patreon these days. I mean, we always do. This is always true. But let me tell you what it specifically looks like right now.

[00:02:13] This month I am going to share an episode in our Industry Insights series, which is powered by the belief that the more you understand about the literary landscape, the publishing industry in general, the more informed a reader you are, and that impacts the way you see that landscape and also the choices you make as a reader. Plus, it's just good, nerdy fun.

So a month ago, I got my most recent royalty statement in the mail for Don't Overthink It, and I reached a milestone I didn't expect to reach, and I did some math, then that kind of broke my heart. But I thought, "Oh my gosh, this is perfect material for a Patreon Industry Insights episode."

So I'm walking you through that royalty statement and also answering a bunch of patron questions that they've already shared with me — it's not too late to share those if you sign up — about what they want to know about book advances and royalty payments and how it all works.

If that sounds good to you, then Patreon is the place for you. Patreon.com/whatshouldireadnext. We are an independent podcast. We love making this good stuff for you in that space.

[00:03:18] Also financially it's how we pay our team. Podcasting advertising is weird these days. If you pay attention to media news, the news in general, you may know that. And having this support from you, our listeners, means everything to us. Thank you so much. Also, I'm so excited for the good stuff coming in that channel your way soon.

Now, for today's episode, we are revisiting my conversation, originally Episode 83, with Donna Hetchler. You may have heard Donna's voice on several of our team episodes in recent years. I hope you have. She is now on our What Should I Read Next? team as our resident spreadsheet master. When I need to logically analyze a situation or dig into and interpret data, Donna is the person I turn to.

What you're about to hear now is from June 2017 when we first really got to know each other in this episode of the podcast, which, unsurprisingly, has become a listener favorite.

[00:04:20] Now, this wasn't Donna's first appearance on the show as you will hear. She hopped on Episode 64 and chatted with me about how she tracks what she reads in our special episode devoted to how 15 What Should I Read Next listeners track their books.

You know, we haven't done anything like that in a long time, but that episode was so much fun. It's another of our most downloaded episodes, and I highly recommend that you go back and listen if you haven't or you haven't in a while.

In the episode, you'll hear today Donna and I dive into her then developing plans for the epic 50th birthday bookstore road trip she had in the works. As Donna says, the planning is half the fun. And today you're going to hear all about the specific West Coast bookstore she wants to visit, the books she wants to purchase, and the friends who will join her along the way.

This episode continues to inspire many of you, our listeners, to plan your own book projects for big milestones. You all have cited it to me so many times in our submissions and our conversations. With that in my mind, it was an utter joy to listen to Donna again share about the trip that started it all.

[00:05:25] Last week I told you it was fascinating for me to listen to Episode 9 with my friend and now team member, Leigh Kramer. Just to catch you up if you haven't listened, last week, we aired Leigh's first episode, Episode 9, from very early 2016.

But in my episode with Leigh, it was clear that I hadn't really learned how to be a podcaster yet. So this week I got to listen to myself almost a year and a half after Leigh's episode aired June 2017. I'm curious to hear what you think, but it sounded to me like I had gotten a lot more comfortable behind the mic by this point.

The show didn't sound the same then as it does now. Some of my style choices these days are different, but it sounded like I had found my feet. As I listened, I found myself saying not only things like, Gosh, Anne, that's a lot of ums and likes back then. But also things like, hey, 2017 Anne, good question. So I can't wait for you to listen for yourself. It's so much fun. Let's get to it.

Donna, welcome to the show.

DONNA HETCHLER: Thanks, Anne. I'm really excited to be here.

[00:06:28] ANNE: Oh, well, I'm so happy to talk to you again. Because we first got to chat when we were putting together what is actually maybe possibly our most downloaded episode. It was back in January and we talked with 15 What Should I Read Next? listeners about how they track their reading. And you were one of them.

DONNA: I was. In fact, a lot of my friends were laughing at me about that episode because of course I track my reading on Excel and I'm in finance. So they were like, of course, you're in Excel. You do everything in Excel. But it was a lot of fun. I enjoyed that experience.

ANNE: I'm so glad. We just had a little conversation after we recorded that episode that nobody else got to hear anything about until today. It's coming. But you mentioned that you had a big birthday and a big trip coming up that had me dying of jealousy, but also begging you to come back on the podcast to talk about it with our readers. Do you want to take it from there?

DONNA: Sure, yeah. This summer, I'll be turning 50, and I just wanted to do something different. I think that's a big milestone birthday. So I came up with the idea of doing a bookstore road trip. I'm going to be going from San Diego up to the Bay area. I'll be stopping at ten different bookstores, and I'm going to get five books in each of them. So I'll get 50 books for my 50th birthday, and then I'm going to try and read them over the next year.

[00:07:55] ANNE: That sounds fantastic. And you've been planning this for a long time.

DONNA: I have. I think actually in some ways planning it is half the fun because I keep crossing things off my list and adding things on to my list. It's been fun to see what bookstores are out there. It's actually quite heartening that there are quite a few bookstores out there for me to choose from.

ANNE: Where did the idea for this trip first come from?

DONNA: Honestly, Anne, it did come from you. I never mentioned that to you.

ANNE: What did I say?

DONNA: Well, you were talking about when you would go on vacation somewhere that you would always be stopping in at a local bookstore. I don't know why this never occurred to me to do, but it just planted the seed of an idea. And it's like, "Oh, I think that's such a great idea. I think you can really get the feel of a town by going to the local bookstore."

[00:08:48] So that's where it started. I actually thought, "Well, I'll just go on vacation somewhere, and I'll just stop at a bookstore. Then I just kind of went from there.

ANNE: I feel like I should not just keep repeating "I am so jealous". But that is what keeps rising to the surface. Donna, it sounds like books must be a huge part of your life if this is how you want to mark a milestone occasion.

DONNA: Yeah, it's really true. I really was an avid reader from being very young. And, of course, one of the categories of books that I'll be getting for this collection are books that really started me off reading in a big way, which for me was Nancy Drew and Agatha Christie.

So, yeah, reading has definitely always been a big part of my life. And not to get too philosophical about it, I really feel like reading has made me the person that I am. I feel like it's brought good people into my life and it's something that is really important to me.

[00:09:51] I tend not to buy books that much. I'm more of a library person, so in a way, it was also my way of supporting local independent bookstores as well is also part of why I'm doing it.

ANNE: You mentioned that you were putting together a collection. Is this the birthday collection?

DONNA: It is.

ANNE: So you're not just seeing what strikes your fancy. Are you choosing every book you're purchasing in advance?

DONNA: Probably not every book. By the way, I love this question. I feel like I could just talk about this question for the next hour.

ANNE: I think I'd enjoy that.

DONNA: So I'm picking a lot of them, but I'm trying to keep my mind open to what will strike my fancy. I don't really have any rules to the list. If I had one theme though, I really want to get books that I will reread over time.

I haven't thought about how often I will reread. Maybe every five years or so. My vision is maybe 20, 25 years from now, I will take one of these books off of my shelf and it will remind me of the trip. I have a bunch of different friends who are joining me on the trip as well. So I think it'll remind me of good times of the trip.

[00:11:09] But also I want the books to almost feel like an old friend. You know, "Oh, I know this book. This is a book that really means something to me." Because I don't know, I don't reread a lot. I feel like I read a book, I enjoy it, but then I put it aside, and that's kind of the end of it. So I'm really hoping that these 50 books are different and books that I will really get to know over time.

ANNE: What are some of the titles you know you want to add to your collection?

DONNA: Oh, okay, well, I'm really struggling with this. Okay, here's like bookworm problem number one. I definitely want to get some books from my favorite authors. That's just kind of an obvious one. For example, Barbara Kingsolver. I loved the Poisonwood Bible. I know that that's a book that I would want to reread over time. But I'm wondering, do I get that or do I go with a book that I haven't read before? I'm really intrigued by her book called, I think, Animal, Vegetable, Miracle. I don't know if you've ever read that book.

ANNE: I have.

[00:12:22] DONNA: So I'm really torn: do I just pick books that I know or do I go with something new from my favorite author? Do you have any thoughts on that?

ANNE: I think that's a really tough question. I don't know. If there's going to be a Donna Hetchler 50th birthday road trip commemorative shelf, I might want Poisonwood Bible on it.

DONNA: I know. I'm definitely leaning towards that.

ANNE: I mean, unless I read Animal, Vegetable, Miracle and fall in love with it. I can remember wistfully how I picked that up at that bookstore in San Francisco.

DONNA: Definitely will be looking at books from my favorite authors. I really love Kate Atkinson is one of my favorites. I like Erik Larson. Stephen King is a favorite, even though he scares the bejesus out of me. So yeah, I think what I'll end up doing is having a mix of books that I have read that I know that I want to reread, and then some newer books as well.

[00:13:25] The other big category, which I know we'll be talking about today are classics. It just seems a natural fit because they clearly stood the test of time. I feel too like they are books that you could really learn something new each time you reread them. I think that there's a lot of depth to the classics. So there's quite a few of those on my list as well.

ANNE: Donna, how are you choosing the actual bookstores you're visiting on this trip?

DONNA: I basically am starting with the different cities that I'm going to visit, like San Diego, Los Angeles, Santa Barbara, Carmel. Then once I had picked the cities, then I just looked at what bookstores are there. So example, for San Diego, they have a bookstore that's called the Upstart Crow, which is an interesting name. I'll have to figure out where they got that from.

[00:14:24] But it was a bookstore that was a chain up here in the Bay Area where I live. So when I grew up, that was a bookstore that I went to quite a few times. Sadly, the stores up here by me have closed. Actually, that might be the last one that's left in San Diego. They may have one in Los Angeles. So there's a lot of sentimental value in that one.

Then in some cities there's kind of only one bookstore that's there. I'm going to stop at a city called Solvang, which is about an hour north of Santa Barbara. It's cute little city, and they have a bookstore there called The Book Loft and it just looked adorable. So I'll be stopping in there as well.

ANNE: That sounds fantastic. And you mentioned that you would have traveling companions.

DONNA: Yeah. So part of the fun of this is different friends will be coming with me to the different cities. And so whoever is with me, when they come into the bookstore, I'm going to have them choose a book for me as well. Again, it could be anything. It could be a book that they love, a book that they think is good for me. It could be a cookbook. I don't really care. Just whatever they think needs to be in my collection.

[00:15:50] ANNE: No guidelines at all.

DONNA: No guidelines at all. Could be fiction, could be nonfiction. But hopefully with that idea of something that is good to reread over time.

ANNE: Donna, are you memorializing this trip in any way? And it could be anything from creating a detailed scrapbook to snapping photos for Instagram to keeping a spreadsheet, knowing you.

DONNA: Oh, there will definitely be a spreadsheet. No question. I will definitely be taking pictures. I actually started a website of my own earlier this year. So I will be putting pictures and letting people know what books I picked up in each of the bookstores.

I recognize that this is not something that everybody can do. I mean, buying 50 books is... you know, it's a fair amount of money. But I'm really hoping the idea of it inspires people. Even if it's that on your birthday, you go to the library and you pick up a classic. I think that would be amazing if people got that from my trip.

[00:16:58] ANNE: Donna, where can we find you online to read about that?

DONNA: My website is called Iamyourrabbit.com. I came up with the name because I feel like I'm always going down the rabbit internet hole and I really like to do research, I love to learn new things. So the idea is, I go down the internet rabbit hole for you and then I try to bring back some tips and recommendations.

I try to do it in a little bit shorter, summarized way. I feel like... I don't know. I feel like sometimes I go to websites, and it can be really overwhelming. Like, there's just so many words. I mean, I'm a reader, but still, sometimes I open it up and it's like, Oh, my gosh.

Or you know how sometimes you go and they'll list out 10 different things you can do to improve your workout or something like that. And I just think, Oh, my gosh, there's no way I'm going to do 10 things. Anyways, I try to do it in a smaller, actionable way.

[00:18:09] And I'm kind of all over the map. I really love everything entertainment. So I'm always having recommendations of books and music and movies. But I also cover things like personal finance. I'm doing a series on taxes right now that I don't think anybody is reading, but I'm enjoying it.

ANNE: I'm actually reading it because I need the information.

DONNA: Oh, that makes me so happy. Thank you, Anne.

ANNE: You've got at least one.

DONNA: Yay.

ANNE: I like that. Because I agree. I would rather spend... I mean, I do read a lot. We both read a lot. But there's so much information out there and I do not need to be reading at all. I mean, I think it would be truly terrible for my brain to try to read everything that I could read every day. So anything that helps you focus on the good stuff is valuable to me.

DONNA: Thank you. That's what I'm trying. I'm trying to have it be both useful and fun. So hopefully, that's how people are reading it.

ANNE: I hope so. Okay, Donna, you also came to me as a podcast guest with a specific request that believe it or not, we have not really heard before.

[00:19:13] DONNA: Well, when I had talked to you before, you know, I knew that I was going on this bookstore road trip and I was basically asking you if you could give me some recommendations for it, but I really wanted to do it with a theme of classics, which I hadn't really heard you talk about that much before. So that was my hope, is that I could get some specific classic recommendations from you that I could add to my collection.

ANNE: Do you feel like you've read a handful of classics or copious classics or somewhere in the middle?

DONNA: I would say probably a handful, which kind of makes me sad. I think that... I don't know, it's so strange. Because when I do pick up a classic, I find a lot of them to be really accessible and easy to read when... I don't know. Maybe there's still this idea that it's homework and maybe I think I'm going to have to write a book report or something. I don't know.

[00:20:22] But yeah, I find that they, a lot of times, are very easy to read. Either that or sometimes it is a little bit more challenging. But I like that too. Sometimes I do want to challenge my brain a little bit and read something different. So even though I have a good experience when I pick up a classic, for whatever reason, I just don't do it that often.

ANNE: When you think to yourself about classic literature, what are you imagining? Like how many years back are you thinking? I mean, are you thinking only about top-tier authors like Austen and Dickens or do you have a more generous definition for yourself?

DONNA: To be honest, when I think of classics, I think of stuff that I read in school. So, yeah, I would say it's probably the more typical classic authors and books that you've probably heard about.

ANNE: So at least 50 years old?

DONNA: Mm-hmm.

[00:21:24] ANNE: The kind of stuff they design in literature classes.

DONNA: Exactly.

ANNE: Okay. Do you want to stick to that definition or do you want to stretch it a little bit?

DONNA: We can stretch it.

ANNE: Okay. I mean, I don't have specific titles in mind yet, but we got to start somewhere.

DONNA: That's right.

ANNE: Donna, are you ready to talk about your favorites?

DONNA: I am.

ANNE: Okay, tell me three books you love.

DONNA: So the first book is Emma from Jane Austen. That book was published in 1815. which, honestly, completely blows my mind. That just doesn't even seem possible. I just love this book because, to me, it is laugh-out-loud funny. Literally laugh-out-loud. I will just sit here by myself and look like a crazy person laughing.

It's basically about this 21-year-old woman, Emma, who lives with her father. She's definitely... I see her as a very good-hearted and well-intentioned character. She fancies herself to be a really good matchmaker and in reality she's a horrible matchmaker. When she puts her skills to the test, things kind of go awry, but in a very, very funny way.

[00:22:50] ANNE: But you couldn't have a novel if nothing went awry or at least not a Jane Austen novel.

DONNA: That's right.

ANNE: What is it about Emma that lands it on your favorites list?

DONNA: It's interesting because I was torn... I mean, I felt like I had to put Jane Austen on my list because I don't know, there's just something about the way that she writes which really transports me to that time period and that location. I literally feel like I'm sitting in the English countryside when I am reading her books. So I knew I wanted to put something from Jane Austen on there.

Actually, I kind of have a question about that for you, Anne, because I've only read Pride and Prejudice and Sense and Sensibility, and I loved those as well. But that's really it. And do you find... I don't know. It seem like a lot of the people I talk to they've only read a couple of her books. I just wondered, what do you think of the rest of her catalog? Do you think that the ones that are popular are popular for a reason?

[00:23:57] ANNE: I do think so. But I do know a surprising number of Austen fans who love Mansfield Park. It's their favorite. I've read it a few times. I enjoy it. I haven't read it as much as the ones you mentioned. But I can see they have a point.

Northanger Abbey, read it. I mean, it's good. It's short. I do think it qualifies as a major work. Not that I'm a literary critic, but since you're asking. I really love Persuasion myself.

My Austen favorite tends to rotate based on, I don't know, the last one I read, a little bit of whim, maybe the time of year. In the fall, Persuasion is probably likely to be my favorite. It has a little bit of a different tone than especially Pride and Prejudice, Emma. Those feel a little brighter, a little more sparkly.

I've read all her juvenilia, and... people can start throwing rotten tomatoes now. But it's fine. It's interesting because it's an author I love, but I never think, you know what I'm in the mood for?

[00:25:04] When I think I'm in the mood to read Jane Austen, I think of the core six. Or really for me, it's the core four. It's Pride and Prejudice, Sense and Sensibility, Persuasion, and Emma. I would love to hear what you think if you read Persuasion. I would expect it to be worth your time. I mean, I would expect you to think it was worth your time.

DONNA: Right. Well, I will add Persuasion on. I'll just consider that a bonus pick. Thank you.

ANNE: Also, if you are in the market for books for your commemorative bookshelf, there are beautiful copies of all those Jane Austen novels available.

DONNA: Oh, I like the sound of that.

ANNE: And they keep cranking out beautiful new editions. Donna, this is the kind of fun fact that might appeal to you or that probably you already found in your rabbit trailing. So physical books have really rebounded against eBooks. It was looking a little bit depressing for a while if you were a fan of actual paper.

One of the reasons is believed to be how many gorgeous editions of old books and sometimes newish books, but especially the classics. Like now it's no longer unusual for somebody to own 10 copies of Emma, not because they're a devoted collector of first editions or something like that, but because there's just so many gorgeous editions available that you want to have them all if you're a big Emma fan.

[00:26:22] DONNA: I love that. Now I'm going to look for that specifically in the bookstores. I will be taking pictures. You will see them.

ANNE: I think you'll find plenty of good stuff. Donna, what's your second favorite?

DONNA: My second favorite is Brideshead Revisited by Evelyn Waugh. I hope I'm saying that right.

ANNE: We know who you're talking about either way.

DONNA: That was published in 1945. So I guess more of a modern classic, but... I don't know. There's something about how it's written. The first word that comes to mind when I think about this book is that it's just epic. I feel like there's so many interesting themes to this book about complicated families, which is one of my favorite topics. It also covers class society. It covers religion. It covers the war. I mean, basically there's nothing that does not cover.

[00:27:23] Actually, I first came across it years and years ago. They did a TV miniseries on it. I had watched that on PBS and loved it, then picked up the book after that and loved it just as much, which hardly ever happens for me. I kind of love one or the other, usually the first one that I've come across. But in this case, I loved both of them. So definitely feels like a classic to me. And is definitely a book that I already reread on a regular basis.

ANNE: You know what? I do too.

DONNA: Do you?

ANNE: Yeah. I really like that one. It's got this kind of haunting, wistful tone that really appeals to me as a reader. Like that is something that is not... it's not good or bad, but it's very much to my taste. And I think he does that really well.

[00:28:12] I don't feel that way about any of other... oh, now I'm a little paranoid. [Woes?] was of the author's work. How's that? I've read everything just because I love Brideshead so much. I've never returned to any of his other works, but I bet I've read Brideshead half a dozen times.

Donna, what's your third book?

DONNA: My third book... I'm going on a little bit different tangent here. My third book is Alice's Adventures in Wonderland by Lewis Carroll. That was published in 1865. To be honest, I could have picked... I'm not like really married to that particular pick. It could have been... oh gosh, it could have been something like The Wizard of Oz, or it could have been Charlotte's Web or something like that.

But basically a children's classic book that I find when I read it today I really see things so differently. It's actually just interesting to me to think about how I loved it as a kid, but how I see things so differently today.

[00:29:20] Specifically for Alice's Adventures, I think, you know, obviously as a kid, you like the crazy characters, and you just like the fact that it's an adventure story. But when I read it today, I kind of think more about how Alice changes in the story. You know, what does she learn about herself as she goes through her adventure.

Or even just thinking about the different characters... I'm going to try and not get myself in trouble here. But they kind of remind me of people from work. Let's just say it's people I used to work with a long time ago. So, you know, when the queen is running around saying, off with their heads, that kind of reminds me of something that I have encountered in my life. So yeah, it's just interesting.

It makes me think about the author too, right? I mean, obviously, they're writing these books from an adult perspective. It makes me wonder, what did Lewis Carroll have in mind? Was he thinking about people in his society? Was he thinking about politicians? Who knows what was in his mind when he wrote that story? I'm really fascinated by those kinds of books.

[00:30:39] ANNE: Okay. Donna, what's a book that wasn't quite to your taste?

DONNA: A classic book that I really didn't care for was The Old Man in the Sea by Ernest Hemingway.

ANNE: What was it about it that didn't that didn't sit with you?

DONNA: I mean, to me, I know that there are, I'm sure, big metaphors and life meaning, but when I read it, it just seemed like, well, here's a man who is fishing on the sea. The end. I don't know. Maybe I just wasn't deep enough. I just didn't get it basically and was really bored.

I will say though, it was a very short book, so it had that going for it. I don't know. I feel like now I'm going to get all this hate mail from Hemingway... people who love Hemingway are like, how could you say that? But it just wasn't for me.

[00:31:42] ANNE: I hear you. I had a literature professor once who said that this was the best sentence in the English language. Are you ready?

DONNA: Yes.

ANNE: Krebs looked at the bacon fat hardening on his plate. And it is from... oh, what's it called? In Our Time. It's a short story collection. I will say that that was one of the best classroom discussions I've ever sat through. But yeah, I think it's a question... We'll just call it a question of taste. And that is very helpful as I'm choosing books for you.

DONNA: Excellent.

ANNE: Donna, what are you reading right now?

DONNA: Oh, I'm reading a really good book. It's actually from your Summer Reading Guide, of course, which I'm really enjoying. But anyways, it's called The Lost Book of the Grail.

ANNE: Oh, yes.

DONNA: It's by Charlie Lovett, which I never read anything by him before. Had you read anything before this one?

ANNE: Well, he writes literary kind of mysteries that involve old books and sometimes Jane Austen. So yes, yes, I have.

[00:32:43] DONNA: I will definitely check out his other stuff. But yeah, I mean, right there, just say literary mystery, and okay, we're good. I'm done.

ANNE: Yeah, I'm a sucker for those too. Okay, great. Well, I have ideas for you. I'm curious to see if I have ideas you haven't actually read yet. And we will get to them right after the break.

DONNA: Sounds good.

ANNE: Donna, welcome back.

DONNA: Thank you.

ANNE: Okay, now usually this is the part where I get to draw common threads and all that stuff. But what you want is... well, I was gonna say it's straightforward, but by your straightforward definition, maybe Hemingway should be A-Okay with you and it's not. So let me try then.

We want absorbing stories, interesting characters, a little bit of family drama. I guess some of Alice's companions are her surrogate family in a way. And we're looking for interesting... how about a touch of more obvious artistry as opposed to a sparer take like Hemingway has?

[00:33:45] DONNA: I think that's perfect.

ANNE: And if we've got a little wit and whimsy, I think that would probably be appreciated.

DONNA: Definitely a bonus. Yes.

ANNE: Okay. All right. Well, on that note, I'd like to know if you have ever read Middlemarch by George Eliot.

DONNA: I have not.

ANNE: Okay. Do you know much about it?

DONNA: I know nothing.

ANNE: Okay. Well, I'm going to spare you the plot summary because that doesn't make anybody want to read the classics. Although I will say that it was only after I read Middlemarch that so many of Kate Atkinson's illusions, especially in Life After Life, made sense. And it made me realize that I didn't realize I had this cultural gap going on when I was reading today's literature that's informed by the classics, but I was certainly glad to fill it.

Also, this is a very long book. It's 800 plus pages. I did it audio myself, which I really liked. I think my version was read by Juliet Stevenson, who also narrates a lot of Jane Austen, but basically, I'm putting off having to summarize the plot because it's tricky with a book like this.

[00:34:48] But what we have is a close-eye look at a group of families living in a small British town, the messes they get themselves into, the relationships they form for good and ill, and especially... you know, I couldn't tell you because it's been a few years since I've read this if Dorothea is the main character in the book or the one I remember is the main character because I liked her the most.

But very early on, she's earnest. She's really smart. She lacks maturity, but she doesn't see it. She has big ideas, especially for a woman in that time. And then, in very much Jane Austen style, she decides, for the best possible reasons, to marry a man who is no good at all and definitely not good for her. Many years her senior, a scholar, Kate Atkinson lampoons him for his pretensions to scholarliness. Is that the word? He's forever working on this manuscript that's never ever going to be finished, and she comes to see that.

[00:36:04] She's a woman trapped in a marriage. This novel was published in 1872. She really was very much trapped. Of course, she's not the only one with relationship woes in this small British town. We follow her sister, there's a handsome young doctor who comes to town. He might get entrapped in an unsuitable marriage of his own.

George Eliot's descriptions are a little long to the modern ear, but they are witty, they're wry. They're not as bubbly as some of Jane Austen can feel, but they're very readable. It's a word that's really held up over time, although a contemporary editor would certainly cut 200 pages.

I think it's a work that's still very much relevant today, since authors like Kate Atkinson are still referencing it. And also it comes in so many beautiful hardback cloth-bound editions that would look really, really nice on a bookshelf and be worth returning to every five years. How does that sound?

[00:37:07] DONNA: That literally sounds perfect. I really like the tie-in with Kate Atkinson. I had not picked up on that at all when reading that book that she was referring to a classic. So I'm very, very intrigued by that.

ANNE: Okay, I like the sound of that. Okay, book two. What do you know about A Room with a View by E.M. Forster?

DONNA: Oh, I have read that book, but it was ages ago. Actually to me that fits into this category perfectly because I do want books... you know, even if I've read them before I want to reread them. I feel like that book too... sometimes I think that I know it really because I know the movie more than I really know the book. Does that make sense?

ANNE: It does. It's such a good movie.

DONNA: Such a good movie.

ANNE: And really it hews pretty close to the book.

DONNA: Oh, it does. Uh-huh.

ANNE: So do you want to...? All right. Well, you know what? Let's talk about it. So in this novel, this does feel a little bit Austen-ish with a hefty dose of Italy. So... oh, my gosh. I'm just remembering Lucy Honeychurch. The names in this novel are so great.

[00:38:25] Like the wealthy guy who her family wants the young woman to marry, his name is Vyse. I don't know that there's deep meaning in George Emerson. You know what there probably is. That's an American literary reference for sure. But Lucy Honeychurch, it's just so adorable.

DONNA: Perfect. Yes.

ANNE: Played by Helena Bonham Carter and maybe...oh, I don't know if that's my favorite movie performance. I haven't seen A Room with a View and maybe 10 or 15 years but I just remember loving it so much.

So, Lucy Honeychurch is young, she's British, and she is touring the Italian countryside. Well, not just the countryside, but the whole plot turns on a kiss in a poppy field in the countryside. So I think that's the scene I really remember, for better or worse.

She's touring Italy with her older, I believe spinster cousin, who is very strict and proper and is in charge of preserving Lucy's virtue and the appearance thereof. But they're at a hotel in Florence, and they meet this completely like charming and engaging and really free-spirited father and son pair and they're unlike any people that Lucy, very sheltered Lucy, has ever encountered and she's intrigued.

[00:39:45] But the young man is not marriage material and she's supposed to settle down with Cecil Vyse, who Daniel Day-Lewis is just amazing in that role. But she has to make a choice. She never thought she'd have to make. It just feels very, yeah, Jane Austen meets Italy.

DONNA: It could be better than that.

ANNE: Almost a hundred years later.

DONNA: Oh, now see, I have a terrible, terrible memory for books. So this is perfect because I don't really remember that much about it. So it's just the right kind of book for me to reread over time.

ANNE: I love the sound of that. Have you read any Edith Wharton?

DONNA: I feel like I have but nothing is immediately leaping to mind.

ANNE: Okay. I'm gonna throw in a 2.5 since you've already read A Room With A View. I'm thinking the House of Mirth. Young woman, bad choices, money troubles, marriage is salvation, New York City, the Gilded Age, I think really pretty hard covers available. I think it might be worthy of your list.

DONNA: That sounds right up my alley.

[00:40:54] ANNE: Okay. Well, I especially had to give you a book 2.5 because I'm going way out on a limb with number three.

DONNA: Oh I'm intrigued.

ANNE: You can tell me if you hate the sound of this.

DONNA: Okay.

ANNE: It was just published in 1978. So that's only nearly 40 years ago. I heard something about the 30-year rule once. There's a post on Modern Mrs. Darcy about it. I'll find it and I'll link to it. But I remember reading advice once that if you are 18 years old and you're deciding on what school to go to, you want to make sure you go to a school where the majority of works on any literature courses syllabus, unless it's a studies in contemporary, whatever.

But the core material needs to be 30 years old, or you should run for the hills. Because if it hasn't stood the test of time, or if you're not going to examine why it will or will not as in contemporary survey courses, that's not how you're going to... you're not going to get the foundation you need to build your education upon.

[00:42:03] DONNA: I like that idea. I'd never heard of that, but it makes a lot of sense.

ANNE: So this novel passes that test, but it's newer than anything on your list today. The one I have in mind is Going After Cacciato by Tim O'Brien who is probably best known for The Things They Carried. I'm guessing this is... well, I don't know. Do you know anything about this book, Donna?

DONNA: I know absolutely nothing.

ANNE: Okay. I first encountered this book probably like a lot of readers in Thomas Foster's book, How to Read Literature Like a Professor. If I had not read his book before I read Going After Cacciato, I'd like to think that I would have seen what he pointed out to me that I should be looking for. But I am not 100% sure.

But here's what I like about this. Like The Things They Carried, this is a novel about Vietnam. So it definitely is dark, it's serious, it's brooding. Like he is tackling a really heavy topic. But he plays so much with the literary canon in this novel that it's really a unique reading experience and one that I think you might find to be a whole lot of fun. Like the potentials for rabbit trailing are huge.

[00:43:28] One of those novels that he references... well, here, let me tell you what happens. Cacciato is a soldier in the war. So, the novel's broken up into three parts. You have a war experience, you have a big trip to Paris, which might actually be imaginary, and then there's a long night watch.

But halfway through the middle of the novel, the characters, or a character, falls down a hole in the road. And after they fall down that hole, one of the characters says, Oh, well, to get out, we have to fall back up. So that is a strong reference to Alice in Wonderland.

And all of a sudden, you realize, oh, wait, he's been doing this the whole book. So like Lewis Carroll, you have this alternate reality. That's just the beginning of all the different literary works that he's referencing throughout the book.

So while you're reading, you're reading this story about what's going on with these men in Vietnam with this troop, but all of a sudden, this war book you're reading is playing forwards, backwards, and sideways with all these other novels that either you've read before or you'll want to after googling the references.

[00:44:46] So it is a war novel, and it is violent, but there's so much more going on that just totally transcends what you typically think of when you think about a war novel. And war novels can be pretty darn amazing. So I am definitely not slamming war novels. I think some of the best books I've read have been set in wartime because there's so much material there. But it's also so much more than that. How does that sound?

DONNA: Okay, that's literally the perfect pick for me. Probably about 10 years ago, I went to Vietnam and I was just really interested, from historical perspective, about the war and had gone to some different areas. Like we went through some of the tunnels that they had dug for part of the war. Some of the soldiers had lived underground, and so we were going through some of these tunnels. And it just gives you an amazing perspective about obviously how brutal the war is, but to what lengths people have to go through in war.

[00:45:57] Anyways, I came home from that trip and just started reading a bunch of books about Vietnam and watching a bunch of movies. So it's just kind of a big hot topic for me. So this is literally the perfect pick.

ANNE: Oh, wow. I had no idea That's never one of those places that I assume someone might have been one day.

DONNA: Right.

ANNE: Well, that's amazing. Donna, of these three novels, what do you think you'll read next?

DONNA: Oh, that's tough. I am leaning towards Middlemarch. I think even just because it's such a long book, which I've been wanting to tackle, I feel like I've been reading a lot of, you know, shorter novels that I can just get through quickly and get them crossed off my list. But for this series, I really want something that I can take my time with, and Middlemarch sounds like it'll be perfect for that.

ANNE: All right. I love the sound of that. I can't wait to hear what you think, and I cannot wait to hear about your road trip.

DONNA: Thank you. I'm really excited.

ANNE: Oh, I bet. Donna, it was so good talking books with you today. Thanks for coming on.

DONNA: Oh, thanks, Anne. It's all my pleasure.

[00:47:06] ANNE: Hey readers, I hope you enjoyed my conversation with Donna and getting to know another member of our What Should I Read Next? team a little better.

Share your reading recommendations or hey, share your independent bookstore recommendations for Donna over at our show notes page, where we also have links to Donna's Instagram account and her blog, and the full list of titles we talked about today. That is at whatshouldireadnextpodcast.com. That page also includes a list of other episodes where you'll hear from Donna and members of our team.

This month we're sharing that series of "Where are they now?" style follow-up bonuses over in Patreon, where I'll be chatting with Donna and each of our Summer Series team members about what their reading life looks like these days, including the books they would pick now for their three loves and one not so much.

Plus, when you join us as a patron, you'll unlock more than 200 bonus episodes from me and our team. Now, you don't have to listen to every one, but if there's a certain one you really wish you could listen to, it's there for you.

[00:48:07] Our patrons are such a big part of supporting our show and allowing us to continue creating this podcast each week. This is one of the ways we say thanks, with our weekly bonus episodes and special events, like our recent Summer Reading Guide unboxing and our upcoming Fall Book Preview. Get more details and get in on the action at patreon.com/whatshouldireadnext.

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Thanks to the people who make this show happen. What Should I Read Next? is created each week by Will Bogel, Holly Wielkoszewski, and Studio D Podcast Production. Readers, that's it for this episode. Thanks so much for listening. And as Rainer Maria Rilke said, "Ah, how good it is to be among people who are reading." Happy reading, everyone.