Books that pair with pumpkin spice

[00:00:00] GRACE: Is it sad that I like the dog in the books more than the characters?

ANNE BOGEL: No, Six-Thirty is amazing. Everyone is allowed to adore the dog.

GRACE: I think he's the main reason I finished the book and didn't DNF it.

ANNE: Hey readers, I'm Anne Bogel and this is What Should I Read Next?. Welcome to the show that's dedicated to answering the question that plagues every reader, what should I read next? We don't get bossy on this show. What we will do here is give you the information you need to choose your next read. Every week we'll talk all things books and reading and do a little literary matchmaking with one guest.

[00:00:50] Readers, we want you to know that finally, finally, our merch is back. You can let everyone know your love of reading with an I'd Rather Be Reading tee. You can start a literary conversation with a What Should I Read Next? tee.

You can grab all the gear for your reading life totes, book darts, stickers. We have lots of bookplates that we put on a discount so you can snatch yours up. And you can also order signed and personalized copies of all my books. Here's a hint. I'm inscribing a lot of titles for holiday gifts right now.

To grab your goodies, visit modernmrsdarcy.com/store or just click the link in today's show notes. We are shipping right away. Place your order at modernmrsdarcy.com/store or click the link in our show notes.

Readers, for today's guest, fall reading is all about the vibes. Grace is joining us from South Carolina, where she is craving books that feel exactly right to pair with a dirty chai or pumpkin spice latte right now.

This time of year, Grace loves to pick up stories full of magic and villainy, but she also gets that fall-reading feeling from titles that feature thoughtful plots and introspective characters on journeys of self-discovery.

[00:02:00] Lately, Grace has been especially enjoying audiobooks, but she's not satisfied with her selection process. She's been making random picks from Libby instead of choosing audiobooks that she has reason to think might actually be a good fit.

So today we're going to get into it. We'll talk about titles that meet her vision for her fall reading life, especially those with audio editions that Grace might find especially enjoyable for pumpkin spice season.

Let's get to it.

[00:02:26] Grace, welcome to the show.

GRACE: Thank you so much for having me. I'm so excited to be here.

ANNE: Oh, I can't wait to talk today. We were really excited by your submission, our whole team. This feels like a perfect conversation for right now, and I'm happy to be having it.

GRACE: I am as well.

ANNE: Grace, let's start by giving our readers a glimpse of who you are when you're not reading.

GRACE: I am a collaborative pianist, organist, and vocal coach.

ANNE: Can I stop you right there? What's a collaborative pianist?

GRACE: Okay, so a collaborative pianist is one who does not just play by themselves. So it's different from what we would call a concert pianist. A collaborative pianist is one who collaborates with other people.

So for me, what that looks like is I play piano for all four choirs at my university that I work at. And then I also play for all of our voice majors. So I go to all the choir rehearsals, I go to the voice students' lessons, and I coach them outside of their lessons. And then I then perform with them in recitals and concerts at the end of each semester.

[00:03:38] ANNE: Interesting. So I'm imagining that means you need to be more, what, flexible, go with the flow?

GRACE: Yes. Flexibility is kind of the name of the game for collaborative pianists for sure. Like my day-to-day schedule changes every single day outside of the standard choir rehearsals. I go to different students' lessons every day. I coach different students every day. I teach private lessons some days of the week.

So yeah, every day is a little bit different. Sometimes things change throughout the day. And yeah, flexibility is definitely a big factor. I think if you're a little inflexible, this may not be the job for you.

ANNE: Are you well suited to that by nature?

GRACE: I feel like I am, yeah. I'm a little ADHD, so the ever-changing nature of things is kind of good for me because if it stays the same for too long, I think I get a little bit bored.

[00:04:38] ANNE: I find that quite relatable. Do you want to tell me about cooking, video games? And I read this this morning is teaching your husband new tricks and watching movies with your dog because apparently I was tired. But do you want to tell us about any of that?

GRACE: Sure, yeah. So in my free time at home, I like to do a little bit of cooking, a little bit of baking. My office at work we are all very big on the baking, so my boss will bring in breads sometimes, freshly baked. And so then I'm like, Oh, I got to bring in some scones or muffins. So there's kind of this back-and-forth baking that happens in the office.

Also in our free time, I love to play video games with my husband. We get very competitive of Mario Kart. We also have a puppy right now, so we both teach her new tricks here and there. Right now she's really good at jumping to our arms as a hoop. So that is kind of my way to stress-relieve at the end of the day and after long drives and that sort of thing.

[00:05:40] ANNE: I think we're going to need video of that, Grace. Very important for the integrity of the show.

GRACE: I can potentially arrange that.

ANNE: Listeners may remember from Episode 389 that my family got to go to Europe this summer. That episode is called Anne and Will's European Reading Adventures, and I think it's a lot of fun.

Grace, I hear you also got to do a little traveling this year.

GRACE: Yes. This past May, I had the opportunity to travel over to England and France with the choirs that I work with. They were on a tour, so we stopped around London and Cambridge and Rouen and Paris. It was a really fantastic trip. I had such a great time and I think students did as well.

I mean, it was such an action-packed trip and I didn't really get a lot of time to myself. So now I just want to go back and like sit all day in a café and read. Did not get the time while I was over there with the students so...

[00:06:44] ANNE: Is there one café in particular that you especially want to live your best reading all day, drinking coffee or tea in?

GRACE: Not necessarily. There was one tea shop in London that we went to, but I cannot recall the name of it right now. But it was just so cute and the tea was so good. I would recognize it if I went back. It was near Piccadilly Circus, I think.

ANNE: That sounds amazing. I'd like to do that right now, actually. That sounds fantastic. Grace, tell us about your reading life.

GRACE: I grew up the daughter of a librarian. And what that looked like was we had tons of books at home. But I was also homeschooled. So a lot of my curriculum growing up was just reading books. So there were just always tons of books floating around the house.

[00:07:36] I remember back in high school I would just like randomly pick up Nineteen Eighty-Four or Brave New World or Jane Eyre or just all these major classics that we had just laying around in addition to like books probably more from my age. But yeah, it was really great.

I, unfortunately, kind of drifted away from that joy of reading, I suppose, in my bachelors and then especially my masters, because I was forced to read a lot of things that I didn't necessarily want to read, which they were all helpful and highly instructional for my education, but I kind of lost the joy of reading.

But then the pandemic kind of forced me to slow down because there's not a lot of easy ways to make music when there's a global pandemic. So I was just kind of sitting at home for several weeks and I just started picking up books again and rediscovered my love for reading. That's probably a story similar to other people.

[00:08:38] So I really got back into literary fiction and fantasy. Fantasy was a big one I had grown up with. So it was nice to kind of rekindle my love for that genre. And then even more recently, I've kind of gotten into romance, whereas in the past I maybe poo-pooed it a little bit. But I have found that I've really enjoyed romance.

However, I do kind of want to get away from romance at this time of the year because for me that genre doesn't really feel fall, I suppose.

ANNE: Ooh, okay, tell me more about books that feel like fall.

GRACE: So, for me, books that feel like fall feel a little bit more fantasy side of things, but they also feel a little bit more like inner discovery, self-contemplation. It's hard to describe outside of warm and fuzzy, mid-life crisis feelings in a way, if that makes any sense. It's just a little bit more dark in a way, I suppose. Not all happy-go-lucky.

[00:09:53] ANNE: I loved how you described fall reading and your submission as not being about the setting or necessarily the time of year when the book takes place, but all about the overall vibe, especially since you work in academia.

GRACE: Mm-hmm, yeah. A little treat at home, but not really. The school I work for is great, don't get me wrong, but I love the dark academia side of things.

ANNE: Plenty of us love dark academia right now. I think we're more than allowed to work in a school and still love that genre. So you said that you really wanted more magic, more villainy, or books that feature more inner contemplation or self-realization. I mean, the kind of books that to you feel just right to read alongside a pumpkin spice latte or a dirty chai?

GRACE: Yeah, 100% agree. I read a lot of romance over the summer and they were just all so sweet and happy. And I think during the fall and during the semester, I'm a little stressed.

[00:10:58] So as much as it sounds like I should have something to balance out the stress, like a romance novel, I kind of like to dig into the stress maybe a little bit and go for darker books or more inner contemplation, which is kind of just what the start of a semester feels like.

It feels like there's a lot of self-discovery to be had in any given semester. Even though I'm not even a student anymore, I feel like I learn something every semester about myself. And so to see that in books as well and characters as well is really interesting to me.

ANNE: And I can see how even though you're not a student anymore, well, I'm glad to hear that you're still discovering things about yourself and your work and your personal journey, but also you play such an important role in those things unfolding in all your students' lives. So, I don't know, it makes sense to me that those vibes feel good for right now.

So I'm really noting, Grace, that you're not looking for escape from what can be the stress of even a really good thing, a good school year, but you're looking to really lean into it. I suppose it may feel more cathartic for you that way.

[00:12:03] GRACE: I think so, in some ways, yeah. I think being able to read about other people having similar struggles or even not similar struggles, but seeing other people discover things about themselves or encounter different troubles or things that they have to overcome, either in the real world or in a fantasy world is kind of fun to see outside of my day to day things that I have to overcome.

ANNE: I hear you, and I noticed that you said you love to read sweet books in the summertime, but fall's a time when you're really—tell me if this sounds right—willing to embrace the darker elements of humanity?

GRACE: I think so, yeah.

ANNE: Okay, well, this sounds fun to me. Grace, I think we should get in your books. What do you think? Are you ready?

GRACE: Let's do it.

ANNE: You know how this works. You're going to tell me three books you love, one book you don't. And what you've been reading lately, and we will talk about books that suit your fall reading vibes. How did you choose these today?

[00:13:07] GRACE: Some of these are books I read really recently. But one of them in particular is one I read over a year ago and just kind of has stuck with me.

ANNE: I think books that stick with you is a good way to go. Grace, what is the first book you love?

GRACE: So the first book I love is Everyone in This Room Will Someday Be Dead by Emily Austin. It sounds a little morbid but stick with me. It's about a young woman, Gilda, who's a little bit depressed, a little bit anxious, and through an interesting turn of events, even though she herself is an atheist and a lesbian, she ends up working as the secretary of a Catholic Church to fill the role that's been recently opened up by the death of the former secretary.

After she starts working there, she starts emailing back and forth with one of the former secretary's friends who does not realize that this other person has passed away. So, Gilda is pretending to be this person who has passed away.

[00:14:12] It's written in like a stream-of-consciousness style. This is the one where it's been a while since I read it. But I just remember Gilda being so humorous and quirky, but also really real and relatable in her mental health struggles that she has and then the relationships that she's trying to create.

I know that stream of consciousness isn't everybody's cup of tea, but for me, it was really... I can only describe it as somehow simultaneously cozy, but also cold, comedic, but in a dark way. And it really just stuck with me and kind of captured my heart. So that was the first book I really loved.

ANNE: Am I remembering right that you mentioned in your submission that you're not exactly sure why you love this so much?

[00:15:06] GRACE: Yeah, and I tried to think about it since my submission, and I really haven't landed on anything. I mean, I, myself, struggled a little bit with anxiety through my two educational degrees, my bachelor's and my masters. But I don't think it's just that. I really don't know.

I read it in January of the year that I read it. So I was kind of in between semesters. And the book itself is set in the winter, so it's not fall-ish, but it felt fall adjacent to me. So maybe it was the timing of the year matching up with the timing in the book. But yeah, I haven't really landed on what exactly it was. I thought about it, but can't quite put my finger on it.

ANNE: Well, I'd be interested to hear if you have any eureka moments there, but for now, I'll just notice that you mentioned that Gilda was really relatable and you could see your own anxieties on the page, although I imagine to the nth degree.

[00:16:08] And also that she's a really kindhearted protagonist, total deadpan sense of humor, lovable but traumatized. You know, you've said that you really enjoyed those warm and fuzzy kind of books portraying a quarter-life crisis or a mental health crisis. Would you say more about that?

GRACE: I will say that I like those kinds of books, but with the caveat that they eventually discover something about themselves and are able to find a way forward. And I know that's not how real life always works out for some people who struggle with mental health.

But I find that it's nice, even if they haven't completely defeated their depression or something at the end of the book if they've at least found something through the arc of the book about themselves and about other people, and have found friendships or relationships that can help them now moving forward.

[00:17:07] I think that's what gives the quarter-life crisis the warm, fuzzy feeling, is the not going it alone. Because at the beginning of Everyone in This Room Will Someday Be Dead, Gilda's very much kind of going it alone. But by the end of the book, she's found a way to embrace the kindness that she's receiving from other people, whether that's the people at the Catholic Church or her new girlfriend or what have you. I think her finding comfort in others is what I like about those particular books.

ANNE: I love the way you describe that. That is Everyone in This Room Will Someday Be Dead by Emily R. Austin

Grace, what's the second book you chose for today?

GRACE: The second book I chose for today—and everybody will roll their eyes that a musician picked this book—is The Violent Conspiracy by Brendan Slocumb. And I know you've talked a lot about this book on your show, so I'm not going to go super deep into it.

[00:18:07] But this book I really enjoyed because of the plot and the fast-paced writing. But also one of the main things that struck me was the accuracy with which some of these characters in the classical music world are depicted.

When I picked up the book, I did not know that Brendan Slocumb had a background in music, but I could immediately tell within the first two pages that that was probably the case based on how he described certain things.

ANNE: Oh, what gave it away?

GRACE: So there, I think, is a scene at the beginning of the book where Ray is in the shower and he's playing his arm as if it's a fingerboard of a violin. And I was like, I have seen so many people in the music library or in practice rooms or just walking around the halls of the music building doing that. So, yeah, I was like, "Okay, this guy knows what he's talking about."

[00:19:05] And I could see that for a lot of the characters as well. Some of these people with huge egos, but then also these people who are very humble about where they come from and the music that they're representing. So yeah, it was just a really great story.

I thought it was a really timely story too, because there are a lot of problems in the musical world of there not being equal access for people of color by pop people.

So, for me, it's not something I personally have to face, but it is something that I and many other people in the music world, classical music world specifically try to remain aware of. It's something that we have to work on moving forward, that sort of equality of access and then equality of representation in orchestras around the world and operas and that sort of thing.

ANNE: That's the Violin Conspiracy by Brendan Slocumb. I do have to ask you one more thing, though, Grace. How does this relate to your fall reading vibes?

[00:20:09] GRACE: I think it relates mainly in the sense that a lot of the book happens while Ray is in an educational setting. So a lot of the things he's going through in terms of his semester, in terms of some of his performances, in terms of the competition towards the end of the book, those are all very much things that I kind of deal with on a day to day basis or hear about on a day to day basis.

So it fits in with what my job looks like essentially during the fall. So while it's not dark academia per se, it does have that academia element alongside someone going on a journey of self-discovery about themselves and also about their family and about the history of their instrument.

ANNE: That's helpful. Thank you. Grace, what is the third book you love?

GRACE: The third book I love is Yellowface by R.F. Kuang. I actually got this book while I was overseas on tour with the choirs. And I actually picked it up in Cambridge, which I think is where R.F. Kuang did one of her degrees, actually.

[00:21:18] ANNE: Oh, that's amazing.

GRACE: I think I got it on the day it was released, actually. But yeah, I devoured it on the plane trip back home because it's a quick read in comparison to some of her other books, which I have also read.

But it's about aspiring author June Heyward, and she witnesses the death of her fellow debut rival, author Athena Liu. And she, after that happens, steals Athena's newly finished manuscript and edits it, and passes it off as her own.

And the manuscript is about Chinese laborers' contributions to the British and French World War I efforts. But June herself is not Chinese, but she starts to kind of try to pass herself off as potentially Asian or ethnically ambiguous.

[00:22:14] But then there's this kind of fantastical element for a while, and that she starts to see Athena's ghosts, she thinks. And then also evidence starts coming out about what she did. So things get really messy.

But yeah, I really like this book because it was so fast-paced and because it had those elements of suspense. Like, is this ghost real or is it not? And also a little bit of humor, albeit dark humor.

And June was just kind of... she was a character that was easy to hate in some ways, but also oddly relatable in other ways.

R.F. Kuang has this really great way of creating characters, I think, that are not black and white. I think she finds the humanity, but also the evil in all people. Not that all people are evil per se, but she finds the gray and she kind of sits in it for like entire books at a time.

[00:23:15] And I think that was what I really enjoyed about this book, was you just didn't know how to feel sometimes about June's actions and whether her redeeming qualities really redeemed her or not by the end of the book.

ANNE: It's interesting to hear what themes call out to you from this book. And how cool that you bought it in Cambridge!

GRACE: Yeah, no, it's just kind of a happy turn of events because I've been looking forward to its release and then I just stumbled upon it there.

ANNE: Meant to be.

GRACE: Read it very quickly on the eight-hour flight back.

ANNE: That is Yellowface by R.F. Kuang. Now, Grace, tell me about a book that was not right for you.

GRACE: The book that was not right for me was Lessons in Chemistry by Bonnie Garmus. And I know this is a book beloved by so many people. So I'm not going to go deep into a synopsis because I know so many book clubs around the world I feel like I've read this book.

[00:24:19] But I will say this book, I really, really was interested in the plots and I was really, really hopeful that the characters would become interesting. But for me, they just didn't. For me, the main character, Elizabeth, she's had some pretty awful things happen in her life. I mean, she's faced sexism alongside many other terrible, terrible things. And she just faces them with this kind of cold demeanor.

And I don't think I was expecting her to be a crying mess all the time. Like I'm all for women being these strong figures and moving on in their lives and excelling in the field that they're working in. But she just never seemed real to me in how she handled situations.

[00:25:15] To me, she just kind of felt like the stereotype of like STEM people being these like cold, logical robots who just don't have any regard for their own emotions or other human emotions. So I did find some of the secondary characters interesting, but even then, a lot of them felt very flat to me. Is it sad that I like the dog in the books more than the characters?

ANNE: No, Six-Thirty is amazing. Everyone is allowed to adore the dog.

GRACE: I think he's the main reason I finished the book and didn't DNF it.

ANNE: That's good to know. What I'm noticing is that Elizabeth Zott is a character who was very firm in her convictions from the moment you meet her in the book. But you like to see people figure out what they believe and what it means for their life. And she did have to wrestle with the way forward but she was, I think, literally never in doubt about who she was and what she believed.

[00:26:21] GRACE: Yeah. Yeah.

ANNE: And that's just not as interesting to you, especially in the fall. Is that right? Does that sound like you?

GRACE: Yeah, that sounds accurate.

ANNE: Okay. You're allowed to have opinions about a book. And it is just fine. I mean, I know this is the drum I keep beating, but it is just fine to not enjoy a book that it feels like, hear the air quotes, everyone loves. The interesting thing is why. So thanks for talking about that with us.

Are you still going to watch the show? Is that something you would do anyway? Because I'm totally going to watch the adaptation with Brie Larson.

GRACE: You know, I might. I might watch an episode and see if Brie brings a little bit more life to the character. But yeah, if it doesn't happen in that first episode, I might DNF the show the way I didn't DNF the book.

ANNE: Grace, what have you been reading lately?

[00:27:15] GRACE: So the last thing I read before the summer ended was Romantic Comedy by Curtis Sittenfeld. I think that book was a good transitional romance because it wasn't all happy-go-lucky the whole time. There were definitely some more introspective elements to that book. So I feel like that was a little transition into the fall for me.

But the one that I've been reading currently is Hell Bent by Leigh Bardugo, and I'm about 30%, 40% through it right now. I love Ninth House. That's one of the books that I read during the pandemic that kind of jump started my fantasy love again.

And I just love the system of magic she's invented around the existing school of Yale. And I love the complex characters that she has. It goes back to that like everybody's got a little bit of dark and light in them, I think. And that's really apparent in Hell Bent. So far it's been really interesting to see. I mean, that's like peak dark academia right there. So what's not to love?

[00:28:25] Then I've also recently loved the audiobook version of N. K. Jemisin's The World We Make from her Great Cities duology. I read a physical copy of the first book, but I kind of struggled through it somewhat. But I really enjoyed the audiobook version of the second book in the series because the narrator had so many amazing accents, and it just felt to me like I could relate to the characters that much more and connect to them and engage with the book a little bit better that the first in that series.

ANNE: That's good to hear. And I keep hearing this. I also read these books in print, but I hear such good things about Robin Miles' narration. I love her. I just didn't happen to read in that format.

GRACE: Yeah, I think it's the first audiobook I've listened to that she narrated and I looked her up afterwards, was like, "What else has she read? I have to find more stuff by her. She's so good.

[00:29:29] ANNE: She's so good. Grace, what are you looking for in your reading life right now?

GRACE: I would really love to lean even more into dark academia or even just a little bit more of the fantasy side of things. So, magic, more complex worlds. I feel like that will help me get more into the fall spirit, even though it's going to be 80 degrees where I am today. Not quite fall yet. Even though some of those trees are starting to change colors, it's just not quite time.

So either books like that or books similar to Everyone in This Room Will Someday Be Dead, that warm and fuzzy mental health crisis snapshot, I guess. I think those books are kind of what feels right to me for the fall.

[00:30:22] And then also if any of those happen to have great audiobook versions. Because my commute to the college that I work at is about 50 minutes, so I can get through a good chunk of an audiobook on any given day, especially if I'm listening at my normal speed of one and a quarter. So just things that will start to bring in the fall a little bit more, but also literally usher me to work a little bit more.

ANNE: Oh, that almost makes me want to have a 50-minute commute. Though I imagine you're more aware of the downsides than I am.

GRACE: Yeah. Yeah.

ANNE: Okay. That sounds amazing. I love the picture of your perspective fall reading life that you're painting. Let's recap.

So you loved Everyone in This Room Will Someday Be Dead by Emily R. Austin, The Violin Conspiracy by Brendan Slocumb, and Yellowface by R.F. Kuang. Lessons in Chemistry by Bonnie Garmus was not for you. And lately you've been enjoying N. K. Jemisin's The Great Cities duology and Hell Bent, and before that Ninth House by Leigh Bardugo.

[00:31:31] And you are on the hunt for, I mean, books that sound exactly right to enjoy with a dirty chai or a pumpkin spice latte. Introspective literary fiction would be great for you. Dark academia to fuel your autumn soul is how you put it in your submission. Fantasy is a great genre for you or a great element this time of year. And also introspective literary fiction. And on top of that, great audiobooks that could work for your long commute.

So you mentioned on your submission that you have been relying on just seeing what's available on Libby instead of something from your TBR. Are we looking for specific like audio to-be-read books?

GRACE: I think so, simply because the things that I've picked up on Libby that have just been available when I start my week on a Monday morning, I'll just sift through Libby and see what I can actually check out for the week.

[00:32:31] And oftentimes things that are on my TBR are not available. So I'll just pick whatever sounds kind of familiar or whatever sounds kind of interesting. And I have found a couple really great things that way, but I've also found some duds that I just listen to because it's what I had.

So I think leaning into maybe I just need to wait a week or two and the payoff will be good. I think being more intentional about what I choose for audiobooks is something I probably need to do.

ANNE: That makes sense to me. And I think you can do it. I believe you can do this, Grace.

GRACE: I appreciate that.

ANNE: We can make this happen. I mean, Grace, I feel like the biggest obstacle here is there are so many potential books to choose from that could be so much fun. I imagine that you've already found your way to Babel by R.F. Kuang.

GRACE: It is on my list. It's just so thick. I hope to get the Kindle version of that one.

[00:33:31] ANNE: It belongs on your list. Also, you love those Leigh Bardugo books. And those are perhaps bigger.

GRACE: They're a little bit thicker, yeah. But Hell Bent is also on my Kindle. [inaudible 00:33:43] thick I guess.

ANNE: Okay, if that's important, let's keep it in mind. Okay, I'm making myself stick to the fantasy elements as we're thinking about dark academia. And I'd like to know if the Naomi Novic's series, Scholomance, that begins with a deadly education is on your radar.

GRACE: I did read the first book in that series. It's probably been over a year. And I did enjoy it. It was a little harder for me to get into, I think. But I have gone back and forth in my brain about mm, I really should read the second one. I really do want to see what happens.

ANNE: Okay. That's actually really interesting because what I was going to tell you was I think the series is a good fit for you, but you might need to have some patience with the first book because it is so heavy on the worldbuilding.

[00:34:38] GRACE: Yeah. Yeah. And I do enjoy the complex worlds but it was a lot, I felt like, to the detriment somewhat of the plot I think. But it sounds like the next book is a little bit better.

ANNE: I do think that book one feels like a very long setup. And readers, if you don't know the series, this inevitably draws comparisons to Harry Potter because it is set at a magical boarding school where monsters roam the hallways. Students' biggest task may be to survive.

These students all have a legacy. Like their parents went there and their parents before them. And it's about two students who have a good bit of romantic tension between them but have to form an alliance to survive, also to save their classmates from destruction at the hands of the monsters.

[00:35:35] So there's a lot of tension in that relationship. There's a lot of tension in the hallways of the school. There is so much worldbuilding. But book one really sets the stage, books two and three really take it away. I thought this was good on audio. I think that helped me stay focused through book one, and then again, it just really takes off in book two and three.

GRACE: I'll need to re-read book one on audio and see if that helps me and it'll catch me up maybe for book two and three.

ANNE: I don't know. I think she really wants the series to be accessible and hospitable to readers who haven't read book one. Since you have read it a year ago, maybe you could just jump in.

GRACE: Okay, yeah.

ANNE: Grace, during our conversation, I keep thinking about The Cloisters by Katy Hays. Is this one that you've read?

GRACE: I've not even heard of that one, actually.

ANNE: Okay. It came out a couple of years ago. And I have to say the story isn't perfect, but the vibes are so solid. And since fall reading is all about the vibes, you can tell me if a book where you think, well, the story, I don't know, is something you may be interested in.

[00:36:42] But this is a debut and we follow a recent college graduate from Walla Walla, Washington, whose father has just died. She's gone to school then like kind of lonely as an outsider. Her parents worked at the school. All the students had tons of money and lived on campus, she didn't. She lived with her parents and she did not have money. But she's so interested in the classics as students are in dark academia.

So all she wants to do is get out of town. And she lands a coveted internship at the Met for the summer. But then she gets there and find out somebody has jetted abroad to take on some, you know, fancy work assignment in Italy or some other glamorous place and they don't have a role for her.

But then something comes up and she can go work at the Cloisters, which is a division of the Met that is way up, like near 200th Street in Manhattan. And I'm so sorry to all you New Yorkers that I just described that. You're probably cringing at my description. But Grace, you're in South Carolina and I'm in Kentucky, and that's good enough for us.

GRACE: Yeah, it's fine.

[00:37:46] ANNE: So she takes this job at the Cloisters where she works with a small team, and they're all deeply involved in the academic world of New England, in the Ivies, where everybody knows everybody and it's all about credentials and standing and money.

So she quickly discovers between the head curator, her beautiful, glamorous Yale-educated friend, and the lowly gardener who has secrets of his own, including the medicinal herbs he's growing in the back garden and selling at the farmer's market that they are obsessed with this project related to the tarot and very interested in this.

They have this pack of cards that they want to do things with, both professionally because it's worth a whole lot of money. But also there's a lot of readings. And there's a lot of discussion about fate and death and futures and hope and possibilities and the lack thereof.

[00:38:47] I also like, well, because this is all about the vibes, that our narrator, her name is Anne, she's so unlikeable. I hate to see an unlikable Anne, but she really is. Well, she's not at first. At first, you think, Oh, she's a fish out of water. She has imposter syndrome. She's just overwhelmed by her surroundings.

But something I really like about this story is how at first Anne seems insecure. And then you start to think, I'm not sure you're reliable. And then you start wondering if she's actually dishonest. And the way she evolves as a character and the way you see the dynamics and loyalties and motives shift with this sense of doom and the occult like dangling over all of them, I think this could be fun. How does that sound for you?

GRACE: That sounds really interesting. Like, it's giving a little hint of Ninth House and Hell Bent albeit in the art world, which is really interesting. That sounds very intriguing. I'm definitely going to have to check that one out.

[00:39:50] ANNE: Yes. This one is all about the relics of old. And I have to tell you, since you're looking for audiobooks, I did listen to the audiobook. It's narrated by Emily Tremaine. And at first I wondered if the narration was a little too straightforward. I'm not sure I want to call this an audiobook that enhances the narrative. But I don't think this will be a dud for you in that format either.

GRACE: Okay, that's good to know.

ANNE: We could talk about dark academia titles all day long. Maybe we'll do that after we finish our official episode. But I really would like to talk about some of those warm and fuzzy vibes but a character having a mental health crisis kind of books.

You really loved Everyone in This Room Will Someday Be Dead. There are some books that we could talk about that are quite similar to that. Like, I think Goodbye, Vitamin could be a good one, by Rachel Khong. Is that when you've read?

GRACE: I've not even heard of that one either.

[00:40:47] ANNE: Oh, I think that's a great thing. This came out in 2017, 2018. The protagonist is a little past quarter year. She's 30. Her name is Ruth. And we get her story through a series of diary entries.

Her father has recently been diagnosed with Alzheimer's. His condition is rapidly worsening. And Ruth decides that the way she can help her struggling family is by moving back in with her parents for a year, which she doesn't want to do, but she does anyway. And she tells us about it out of her sense of duty.

But when she's living there, she's forced to closely confront her father's illness, of course. She describes it as moving very quickly from manageable into scary territory, but also the troubled history of their relationship.

This is a short book, sympathetic protagonists, really interesting point of view. I think that could be a good fit for you, perhaps.

[00:41:41] GRACE: Yeah, no, that does sound really good. I oftentimes… at the end of the day, I'll get home after my long drive and I will not have a ton of time to read. Or if I do, I'll start reading and I'll just fall asleep. Not because the book is bad, but because I'm just tired.

So it being in that diary entry style sounds really interesting because I feel like it breaks it down into smaller chunks when a book is like that. And it makes you feel like you're making more progress than you are, in some ways.

ANNE: Yeah, you're making through complete snippets.

GRACE: Yeah. And the story itself sounds relatable, too. I lost my mom a handful of years ago to cancer, and it was kind of this like rapid deterioration. So while Alzheimer's is a completely different, terrible beast, it does sound like it's a book that I can potentially relate to in some ways.

[00:42:41] ANNE: And I know that something that you've welcomed in your books before—that relatability. I've not listened to the audio of Goodbye, Vitamin. It is narrated by Therese Plummer, who lots of readers really enjoy and seek out on purpose. And it's only 5 hours. At 1.25 speed, that won't even get you through the whole week.

GRACE: Yeah, no.

ANNE: And I mean that in a good way. Okay. Another book that I think could be interesting for you because it combines... this is not a dark academia title, but it's so related to Harry Potter that how can that not be in the realm somewhere?

There's a French novel that just came out in the U.S. It's called Second Best. It's by the author David Foenkinos. It's translated by Megan Jones. This is by a French author who has written before about mental health and in ways that we don't always expect.

[00:43:36] So the premise of this novel, Second Best, is if we live on the earth and consume media in the English language, we are probably aware of the phenomenon of the Harry Potter books and movies. So the second best here is the British kid named Martin Hill, who lost the role to Daniel Radcliffe in 1999 when he was ten years old.

GRACE: Oh, no.

ANNE: So when he was ten years old, his dad happened to be a... he might have built sets. Martin came along with his dad to work on the set of Notting Hill, he saw Hugh Grant, who made his day. He's just sit in the casting chair reading a book, when somebody sees him with his new glasses and is like, "Oh, I'm doing casting for Harry Potter. That kid is perfect. We have to get him an audition."

This book is realistic to the point that we know that Martin Hill did not get the role. Daniel Radcliffe got the role, and that part is for sure.

[00:44:34] So Martin never wanted to be an actor. Like, he was really into football. He has a crush on a girl. You know, he's just living his life and going to school. Actually, his parents had gotten divorced. So his mom's now in Paris and he's taken the Eurostar back and forth occasionally. But he's good. He's just moving on.

But at ten years old, Daniel Radcliffe is chosen. And the movies are so phenomenally popular and so inescapable. And he looks so much like Harry Potter walking around the world in his glasses that people ask him all the time, "Did you play Harry Potter? Are you Daniel? Did you play him? Oh, my gosh. Look, it's Harry Potter," that he goes from at first initially, like, disappointed, he wanted the role, to feeling like he has missed out on his life.

So he grows up. He even becomes a young adult. He takes a job at the Louvre and he is haunted by what could have been.

And in one sense, the premise is so whimsical that it can't not feel warm-hearted. But in the other, Martin is struggling, and that is portrayed just really sympathetically on the page. I don't know what else to say except, like, how does that sound to you?

[00:45:44] GRACE: That sounds really interesting. So is this a true story or is this fiction?

ANNE: This is 100% made up.

GRACE: Okay. This story sounded like it could just be so real. I was like, "What?" Okay. No, but that sounds really interesting, because, yeah, I loved the Harry Potter books growing up, and then I love the movies and, like... I don't know. At fall time, I always have this urge to like rewatch Harry Potter. I'm sure a lot of other people have that same urge. But yeah, no, that sounds really, really interesting.

ANNE: It's off the beaten path for you. I mean, for a lot of readers. I hope you find it interesting. And then I think we can double up with introspective literary fiction mental health crises, some warm and fuzzy deadpan humor vibes, and really good on audio. Have you read Sorrow and Bliss by Meg Mason?

GRACE: No.

[00:46:40] ANNE: Okay. This is a British novel that came out a few years ago. It has a very distinctive pink and red cover, and the audio is amazing. It is read by Emilia Fox.

This is the first-person story of a British woman named Martha. We meet her when she's 40. So this is not your quarter-life crisis book. But she talks about how a bomb went off in her brain—those are her words—when she was a teenager. And ever since she's been coping with a mental illness that is never named in the book.

Martha tells us her own story. She completely lacks a filter. She can be cutting and rude, although sometimes devastatingly funny. And she just wreaks emotional havoc on those around her.

This is a book about heavy things. Like this is about severe mental illness, but the tone is not heavy. And what Mason does here is provide this interior perspective of how it might feel like to be Martha, like to live with this unnamed mental illness. So the subject matter is tough, but Martha's inner narrative is often hilarious.

[00:47:43] And she has a sister who is so saucy and funny. And when the two get together, there's so much witty banter on the page. I also really appreciated that this does end in a hopeful place. So obviously triggering content. But does Martha find her way and does she have her people and those relationships? And do you see her grow and evolve even if she feels like she's been living with this for more than 20 years now? And I think you'll like all those things.

GRACE: Yeah, I know. That sounds really great. Like I never heard of that book either. And that sounds right along the lines of the Emily Austin books.

ANNE: I'm really glad to hear it. I do think they have that narrator telling her story, letting you into her head, and also deadpan humor going for them. And finally, I have to ask, because we were talking about music books and you enjoyed The Violin Conspiracy so much. Have you read The Ensemble by Aja Gabel?

GRACE: No. All of these books I have not read.

[00:48:40] ANNE: I'm thrilled to hear it. You know, we're reaching back a few years and then we went to France for one. So those are not the books that are everywhere in front of you right now. And I think that's a nice thing.

GRACE: It is.

ANNE: Gabel is a former cellist herself, so I'm sure that you'll look for the clues and you'll notice them. But she does know her way around the world of classical music. And this story spans something like 20 years. It begins in the '90s.

There are four elite musicians who decide they're not going to go the more typical soloist path; they are going to form a string quartet and really bind their professional and personal lives together in that way. Professional because their careers are linked and personal because they spend so much time together. They spend so much time together that this really reads like a family novel and specifically a dysfunctional family novel.

[00:49:35] The characters aren't always likable, but you find yourself rooting for them anyway. They always ring true. I think she just really nails a wide range of human emotions in their lives because the struggle they have is, how do you keep living your life and prioritize things and get married and think about children and stay in touch with your family or not, because some of them really don't want to do that, when you are living this demanding life? Demanding in ways that are emotional and practical and also physical, as we see, especially with one of the four members of the quartet.

But this is so believable. I should maybe insert here, though, that I am not a classical musician. But I do believe that musicians also find this utterly believable and also just really emotionally compelling and just completely submerges you into the competitive world, not the collaborative world of classical music. How does that sound to you?

[00:50:30] GRACE: I feel like you describe parts of my life just now just in your description of a dysfunctional group of people. Like having done chamber music before and knowing the wide range of dynamics that can happen in that sort of setting and also the demanding nature of the classical music world, all of this sounds incredibly relatable and really interesting, though, for sure. Yeah, those are all problems I feel like I myself have faced in one way or another or people around me have faced.

ANNE: Well, luckily, we know you do like to read about topics adjacent to your life, not completely antithetical.

GRACE: Yes.

ANNE: That's not the escape you need. It's probably worth noting that while I would not call this an academic novel, the musicians here are often teaching as part of their job, their funding. So there is an academic adjacent setting here.

GRACE: All sounds really good.

[00:51:37] ANNE: I'm glad to hear it. All right, of the books we talked about today, we talked about The Cloisters by Katy Hays, Goodbye, Vitamin by Rachel Khong, Second Best by David Foenkinos, Sorrow and Bliss by Meg Mason, and The Ensemble by Aja Gabel, ooh, which I just reread on audio because it's our November Modern Mrs. Darcy Book Club selection. I had to make sure it held up before we made it our book club read. And I loved the audio. I thought it was fantastic in that format. So of those books, Grace, what do you think you'll read next?

GRACE: This is such a hard decision. I think I'm split between The Cloisters and The Ensemble at this point. So maybe I'll have one to read at home and then I'll make one my audiobook for the week. But yeah, all of them sound so good. So I'm really excited to dive into all of them, but I probably will start with The Cloisters.

[00:52:38] ANNE: I'm not sad about it. That feels just right for fall. It starts in the summer, but it feels just right for fall.

GRACE: Well, thankfully, like I said, it's like 80 degrees here right now, so I'll transition with it.

ANNE: That sounds wonderful, Grace, thank you so much for sharing your time and your reading life with us here. I enjoyed it so much.

GRACE: Well, thank you. I enjoyed it as well.

[00:53:07] ANNE: Hey, readers, I hope you enjoyed my conversation with Grace, and I'd love to hear what you think she should read next.

Find the full list of titles we talked about today at whatshouldireadnextpodcast.com. Make sure you're following in Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Overcast, wherever you get your podcasts.

If you've especially loved an episode, giving it a star in Overcast or leading a review in Apple Podcasts always brings a huge smile to our faces here at What Should I Read Next? HQ. That is our love language as podcasters because it helps other readers discover our show.

Thank you so much for everyone who's been leaving reviews. It really does mean a lot to us here.

Follow along on Instagram. My account is @annebogel. The show is @whatshouldireadnext. We love connecting with fellow book lovers there and seeing the moments you share about your reading lives.

Get on our email list so you're always in the know. Sign up at whatshouldireadnextpodcast.com/newsletter.

Thanks to the people who make this show happen. What Should I Read Next? is created each week by Will Bogel, Holly Wielkoszewski, and Studio D Podcast Production. Readers, that's it for this episode. Thanks so much for listening. And as Rainer Maria Rilke said, "Ah, how good it is to be among people who are reading." Happy reading, everyone.