Exploring spine-tingling and scary reads

[00:00:00] JENEA LYLES: I really am looking forward to decorating my house in cobwebs and skeletons and spiders, and I want my reading life to match that aesthetic.

ANNE BOGEL: Hey readers, I'm Anne Bogel and this is What Should I Read Next?. Welcome to the show that's dedicated to answering the question that plagues every reader, what should I read next? We don't get bossy on this show. What we will do here is give you the information you need to choose your next read. Every week we'll talk all things books and reading and do a little literary matchmaking with one guest.

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And now for today's episode.

[00:02:10] Every year we hear from so many readers who are haunting their local bookstores, searching for spine-tingling seasonal reads. Today I'm talking to Jenea Lyles, a devoted horror movie fan who's looking to bring a little more of the scary stuff into her reading life as well. She's dabbled in the genre but knows there's a lot more out there to explore. And she feels the timing is right to do just that.

Jenea is a full-time graduate student who's happy to be recovering from a school-associated reading slump. Lately, she's especially enjoying the suspense in mystery genres. She's seeking my help today in assembling a stack of thematic Halloween reads that are on the scarier side but still make room for whimsy. Let's see if I can recommend some titles that I hope will feel like treats to her today. Let's get to it.

Jenea, welcome to the show.

JENEA: Thank you for having me.

ANNE: Oh, I've been looking forward to this. Thank you for coming on. I'm so excited to hear more about you and your reading life. Jenea, I'd love to start by inviting you to just give our readers a glimpse of who you are, especially when you are not reading.

[00:03:15] JENEA: Sure. So I live in Maryland. I'm also from Maryland. I went to school in Pittsburgh and recently moved back last year. I moved back because I'm currently a full-time graduate student. I'm getting my master of public health and I'm in the second year of that program.

I also work two part-time jobs in addition to my studies, which gives me a lot of busy work. I'm rarely free. I have a lot of stuff to do all the time.

And then when I talked to my friends and family about what I wanted to talk about, about myself, they told me that I have to mention how much what they called insignificant knowledge I have. I like to say that I collect a lot of fun facts. I'm really good at trivia. I like to learn in general. I like to speculate on things, learn, and think.

I watch a lot of documentaries, go to museums. I listen to a ton of podcasts, most of them are geared at teaching you something new. I have watched YouTube videos my whole life and they're always about random and interesting topics.

And this year I've been picking up a lot of new hobbies. I recently started sewing. My mother got me a sewing machine for my birthday this year and I took some sewing classes, and that has been really fun. And just have been getting back into crafty hobbies and learning how to do new things. That's a good description of what I like to do.

[00:04:40] ANNE: Ooh, that sounds amazing. I think that was so smart to ask your friends and family what to say.

JENEA: Yeah.

ANNE: Okay. So I'm going to put you on the spot. What's a recent fun fact you stumbled upon or whipped out in conversation?

JENEA: So a video I was recently watching was about housing and why new apartment buildings tend to look the same. I live in the D.C. metropolitan area and in D.C. and in the neighborhood I live, there's a lot of apartment buildings going up, and I thought that they looked kind of ugly.

But it turns out that that has been the trend every time there are new housing trends, and I just need to get with the times. So I learned that these buildings are made with affordable materials and that's why they all look the same. So that's been fun for me to talk about with people any time we go past a new apartment and complain about it.

ANNE: I think I read the article version of that YouTube video.

JENEA: Nice.

ANNE: What are you sewing right now?

JENEA: I just made a skirt out of some leather pants that I had but never wore because they were the wrong length for me. And I feel really satisfied about that because I'll be wearing it to a Beyoncé concert with my mom next week. So very excited.

[00:05:52] ANNE: Ooh. Oh my gosh, I love that full circle. I hope your mom feels like this is the best gift she's ever given and that you'll have so much fun together.

JENEA: Oh, she's been bragging about her gift-giving skills.

ANNE: Well deserved. Jenea, tell us about your reading life. What does that look like for you?

JENEA: So I've been an avid reader my whole life. I read all the time as a child. I got in trouble a lot at school because I didn't like to do my homework. And as a result, I often got TV privileges taken away. And so my go-to form of entertainment has always been books. I read far above my age grade when I was younger, and that kind of led me to get into a lot of different genres at a young age.

When I was a child, I really liked fantasy and mysteries, and historical fiction. I'm thinking about all the books I liked when I was younger. I'm thinking of like The Name of this Book is Secret. I really enjoyed those books. There were a lot of like Margaret Peterson Haddix books. I really enjoyed all of those. I still kind of lean towards them, especially fantasy. I still enjoy fantasy a lot.

[00:07:05] But then when I went to college, my leisure reading stopped mainly because I had very little free time at that point. I became a full-time college student and I had a job and a lot of on-campus activities.

But after I graduated, which was in 2020, so during the pandemic, I had very little to do and I started exploring my reading life again and found that I didn't know what I was interested in anymore and didn't have the capacity to explore different genres like I used to. But I did realize a lot of things I like about my books now that I'm an adult and things that I prioritize in my books now, such as worldbuilding and character development. Those are things that I have really stuck to in a lot of the books I read.

[00:07:51] Recently, my best friend convinced me to start a Bookstagram account because I rarely use Instagram even then. But that has been helpful because I stopped using Goodreads, and I felt like I had lost that sense of community as a result. So that has been great to kind of keep me connected to other people and that encourages me to read a lot more.

But I read a mix of audio, digital, and print books throughout the day, depending on what I'm doing. I listen to a lot of audiobooks when I'm at the gym or if I'm on a commute. I use digital books if I'm outside the house and print books if I'm in the house. So I don't really take my print books outside.

And then my family and I have a family book club, which has been where a lot of my reading picks have come from in the past year. And that's been really great for me, too.

ANNE: Oh, that's amazing. Tell me a little more about your family book club.

[00:08:50] JENEA: So it's obviously me, my dad, my grandmother, my great uncle, and my uncle—my uncle being my dad's brother. We alternate who picks books, and the only requirement is that the author has to be Black.

ANNE: That's so cool. Okay, I'd love to hear how do you all talk about these books and what's a recent selection you brought to the table for this book club?

JENEA: So whoever was the selector of the book, they are responsible for kind of selecting some questions to come prepared to talk about during book club. The most recent book that I suggested for the book club was The Last Suspicious Holdout by Ladee Hubbard. That was a great book. It was a collection of short stories that took place in the 90s and 2000s. We all really enjoyed that book. But I will say that my picks for book club tend to be a bit of a miss for the rest of my family.

ANNE: Oh no.

JENEA: They still enjoy it. I think they always know... I think I have a distinct reading preference that's different from my family.

[00:09:56] ANNE: I guess taking turns picking the books and talking about them really makes that clear. What is a book that another family member has chosen that you might not have picked up but ended up really having a great discussion about or maybe really connecting with?

JENEA: We read Notes from a Young Black Chef by Kwame... I can't think of his last name right now.

ANNE: Is it Onwuachi?

JENEA: Yes. My dad recommended that book because he is a chef and he felt connected to it.

ANNE: What? I bet he did.

JENEA: I never pick up, honestly, anything autobiographical. I think I like to normally hear what other people have to say about someone's biography. But I think that changed my perspective on that because a lot of that book was him talking about how he's been misperceived by people in his life and how that has affected him and how he's grown from all of his struggles. So I've really enjoyed that book and the recipes scattered throughout it.

[00:10:51] ANNE: And also I know you mentioned in your submission that you have strong ties to the D.C. area and have enjoyed books that have taken place there. And if I remember correctly, it opens with him serving a big meal at the African American History Museum there.

JENEA: Yeah. And that museum opened within the last ten years while I've been here. I think that's what got me connected to the book in the first place. I remember when that museum opened and it was a huge deal. Obviously lots of celebrations. And even still the museum hosts a lot of events and celebrations throughout the year. So that really helped me feel connected to the book. I think a sense of place is important for me in a book, and he was able to establish that even in that memoir-ish.

ANNE: All right. Well, thank you, Dad. Jenea, I have to ask the question I'm sure lots of readers are wondering about. And that is, so many of us struggle with making time to read, especially when we feel like life crowds out our leisure reading when we're not reading as part of a job. And I'd love to hear if you have any insight about how you are fitting books into your life in a way that brings you joy doesn't stress you out. How are you reading this busy season?

[00:12:06] JENEA: I try to get books in wherever I can fit them in. So as I said, I read audio, print, and digital. And that is to accommodate any need or any available time that I have. So I'll read on the train. But I don't spend the whole train ride reading—at least 5 minutes.

So wherever you can get in 5 minutes, I think is the most important thing. I think wherever you can get in 5 minutes, you should sit down, try and read a book. But also, I think the biggest thing I've done for myself is taking the pressure off of myself.

So I can go a week without reading anything and that won't make me feel nice in a way because I do like to read. But reminding myself that reading is supposed to be fun and leisurely and to not feel bad if I haven't done it in a little bit. That has been helpful. But I think just finding space wherever you can and knowing that one page is better than zero, it has been my most comfort.

[00:13:08] ANNE: I mean, I'm laughing because it's so simple and so smart and true.

JENEA: Yeah. Yeah.

ANNE: Is this something that you've given a lot of thought? Because it sounds like perhaps you've had some conversations with yourself about this.

JENEA: Yeah. I think in the past I felt very pressured by myself to finish books and finish books in a timely manner. I think now where I'm at in life, one, I don't feel bad just not finish a book. I will put a book down if I'm 50 pages in and it's not making me excited because I think that it's not a good use of my very little available time if it's not interesting to me.

But also I can take three months to finish one book if that's what's working for my schedule right now. And I think that has been really helpful for just making reading not stressful and still fun.

ANNE: I love that. Thanks for sharing your reflections with us. Now, Jenea, we are talking to you at a specific moment in time in the calendar and in your reading life. What you told us in your submission was that you are interested in leaning more into horror in this season. What do you take over from here and say more about what you have on your mind for right now?

[00:14:21] JENEA: Yes. So it is spooky season. I love Halloween. I love Halloween costumes. I love scary movies, and I especially love horror movies. I like mystery and suspense in general and all forms of entertainment but I have always been a huge fan of horror movies, especially ones that are a bit speculative.

I tried reading horror when I was in middle and high school, and my mom has always been a huge Stephen King fan, so we've always had those books laying around the house. But I just never actually tried to get into it. And now that I'm older and I'm seeing all of my interest and really thinking about them, I do want to get into horror more.

ANNE: And tell me more about looking for Halloween-themed reads.

JENEA: Yes, I really like to read on season somewhat. So my summer books have been summery, and I try to make my fall books fall-themed in a way, but I haven't tried to get into Halloween reads specifically. Nothing spooky.

[00:15:23] I think the best way to get into spooky season is to kind of surround yourself with all things related to it. The best way to enjoy a season is to be fully immersed in it. And I really want to try some Halloween reads, especially ones that maybe are a little bit more whimsical than the ones I've seen or heard about.

ANNE: Woo, whimsical.

JENEA: Yeah, I do like a little whimsy in all things.

ANNE: I don't know, Jenea. Whimsical horror. What does "whimsy" mean to you?

JENEA: Not taking yourself too seriously. I think, especially because I like a lot of books that make you think pretty heavily, I don't want the horror I'm reading to be too heavy, if that makes sense.

ANNE: I think so. I would have to think about this.

JENEA: Okay.

ANNE: But I'm excited to see where it takes us. And I think the next thing we need to do is hear about your books. Are you ready to go there?

JENEA: Yes.

[00:16:23] ANNE: You know how this works. You're going to tell me three books you love, one book you don't, and what you've been reading lately. And we will talk about what you may enjoy reading next. Jenea, how did you pick these for today?

JENEA: I thought about books that I am still thinking about. Most of the books that I've listed I read at least two years ago, but they inhabit my everyday thought. Every time I think of books I love, I point to these three. I think they are all representative of my interests and what I love in writing.

ANNE: I like that way of thinking. Tell me about the first book you love.

JENEA: So the first book is She Who Became the Sun by Shelley Parker-Chan. It takes place in maybe ancient China. I don't know what year specifically, but certainly the distant past. And it's about a young girl who is born a peasant with no food, and her entire family dies of starvation. And she assumes the identity of her older brother so that she is able to join a monastery.

[00:17:29] It's kind of also told from the perspective of a general who is a unit, and he is kind of battling with that identity. The story goes between the two of them and kind of their alternating feelings about gender and identity, about what their purpose is, and about what their role is in society.

ANNE: That sounds so interesting. I haven't read this one myself. How did you end up picking that up?

JENEA: I use StoryGraph to check my reading and to keep my TBR lists. StoryGraph has challenges that they like for people to do, and one of them is to read a book that somebody else rated five stars. I just picked a random person in the community, looked through their five-star reads and this was on there, and just decided to read it. And still a great decision I've made.

ANNE: I'm so glad to hear that another reader's five-star read led you to something that you really enjoyed yourself.

JENEA: Yeah.

ANNE: That was She Who Became the Sun by Shelley Parker-Chan. Jenea, what's the second book you love?

[00:18:31] JENEA: Parable of the Sower by Octavia Butler. This was a book club pick, I believe, from my grandmother. She thought I specifically would really enjoy this book and that I would enjoy Octavia Butler books in general. And she was correct.

This story was somewhat post-apocalyptic. I wouldn't say that. Takes place in a not-too-distant future, which is, I believe, the 2020s but the book was written in the 1980s. And the world has kind of gone into destruction, climate change has reared its ugly head, there's chaos, there is drug addiction, there's crime. And there's a young girl who has started her own religion, her own teachings and is trying to take care of herself and her community through all of this.

ANNE: I'm so glad to hear that your book club put this on your radar. How much Octavia Butler have you read?

[00:19:29] JENEA: I have only read this... well, the first two books in this, what was supposed to be a trilogy. And I have also read Kindred, and I've watched the show. But the book was better, of course.

ANNE: Oh, gosh, I haven't seen the show. Do you still think it was worth your time, even if the book was better?

JENEA: Oh, yeah. The show was still good.

ANNE: Okay. I loved that book. I need to make time to watch the show. I'm glad to hear that.

JENEA: Unfortunately, the show did get canceled, so there's only one season to watch.

ANNE: Yeah. I was sorry to see that. I'm always so excited to hear about the adaptations, and I always struggle to make time to watch them. But I'm glad to hear you found that one worthwhile. That is Parable of the So... Well, we are talking about Kindred, but the book is Parable of the Sower by Octavia Butler. I'm also glad to hear your family knows you so well that she picked out that book with you in mind.

JENEA: Yeah, it was really nice of her. She also recommended a couple of other books with me in mind. She is the reason I started reading N. K. Jemisin books. My grandmother has great recommendations.

[00:20:28] ANNE: That's amazing. That's amazing. Jenea, what is the third book you love?

JENEA: Project Hail Mary by Andy Weir. Specifically the audio version. I came across this... My mom has an Audible subscription that she never uses, so I take all of her credits. This was promoted one day and I thought it sounded interesting. I have read some other books of his and I enjoyed it.

I listened to this book and I enjoyed how much science was in this. I could tell that he consulted with some actual experts in this field. There was just a lot of detail and a lot of interesting things happening at every turn. I really liked having the audio version. You can hear the alien language.

The book is about kind of a distant future in which a microscopic alien race is going to lead to our death essentially or the death of Earth. And he is off on a distant space mission to save us all, and he encounters an alien who is on the same mission to save his species. And when they're interacting, I just thought all the details he put in the book that a lot of people wouldn't think to include, just the language models that he created, I thought it was also interesting.

[00:21:50] ANNE: I've heard so many good things about the audio version for this book, but I read it in print myself. But nobody has talked about the languages in that way.

JENEA: I'm not sure how it's described in print, but it's described in the audio version as a melodic language. They create sounds for you to hear the language in the audiobook, and it sounds kind of like a song. I don't know. I don't know how I would have imagined that if you would just described it to me. So I thought that they really made the best use of the audio format for that book.

ANNE: When you picked that up, did you know that you wanted to read it in audio or was that a happy accident?

JENEA: It was a happy accident.

ANNE: All right. Well, I'm glad that that happened for you and you got to enjoy it in that format. That is Project Hail Mary by Andy Weir. Now, Jenea, tell us about a book that was not a good fit for you.

JENEA: For me, it was Binti by—and I might be mispronouncing her name—Nnedi Okorafor. I wanted to love this book so much. It was a book club pick for me, actually. We read the entire trilogy because it's short and it wasn't hard to do.

[00:23:01] I think, for me, I felt like the book wasn't finished. There was a lot of plot development that I felt wasn't included in the book, a lot of questions I didn't get answered and I didn't get enough character development out of it. I thought the world she created was really cool and I thought the general plot of the story was interesting, but I think the writing for me just wasn't enough.

ANNE: A novella doesn't give you a lot of room to spread out. But I don't know, I feel like maybe that's not the issue here.

JENEA: Yeah, I couldn't figure it out. But this book has so much acclaim and so many people were recommending it. I really wanted to enjoy it more than I actually did.

ANNE: Oh, that is a feeling that is not unfamiliar to many readers. That was Binti by Nnedi Okorafor. Jenea, what have you been reading lately?

[00:24:00] JENEA: I am currently reading You Made a Fool of Death with Your Beauty by Akwaeke Emezi. I am reading that on digital through my library because I have a digital library card, thankfully. I just started that yesterday. Only on page 35. But so far I'm really enjoying it.

ANNE: Okay. I'm glad to hear that. What else are you reading right now?

JENEA: I'm also reading... on my audiobooks, I'm reading American Gods by Neil Gaiman and Good Omens by Neil Gaiman. And in physical books, I'm reading Born to Be Weird by Set Sytes. So I have a lot of books going on.

ANNE: And how do you feel about having a lot of books going on at once?

JENEA: I like it. I think especially because the genres of these books are different, that's what's important to me when I'm bouncing between different media. I can't read two sci-fi books in different formats, for example. That would confuse me. But as long as the books are substantially different, I can juggle them easily.

[00:25:03] ANNE: Okay, good. I'm glad to hear that. Jenea, we talked about this a little, but what are you on the lookout for in your reading life right now?

JENEA: I think what I'm looking for is more exploration in my reading life. I've gotten kind of stuck in my ways. I read a lot of fantasy, a lot of sci-fi lately, and a lot of kind of the same things I've been reading. I've tried dabbling into romance lately, which is the reason for some of the recent books I've read, but I just have not explored outside of my go-to genres.

Of course, I'm still looking for a Halloween read specifically to help me tap into the spooky aspects of this season. I really am looking forward to decorating my house in cobwebs and skeletons and spiders, and I want my reading life to match that aesthetic.

ANNE: Because you want to immerse yourself in all the elements of the season.

JENEA: Exactly.

[00:25:59] ANNE: Okay, well, let's recap. You love She Who Became the Sun by Shelley Parker-Chan, Parable of the Sower by Octavia Butler, and Project Hail Mary by Andy Weir. Binti by Nnedi Okorafor, that was not for you. It was not the reading experience that you had hoped for.

And lately you've been reading You Made a Fool of Death with Your Beauty by Akwaeke Emezi, American Gods by Neil Gaiman, and Good Omens by Neil Gaiman and Terry Pratchett. And you just picked up Born to Be Weird, the stories by Set Sytes. And you're on the lookout for some Halloween horror for this upcoming season.

JENEA: Yes.

ANNE: Okay. And you like a touch of whimsy.

JENEA: I do. I do like a little bit of whimsy.

ANNE: The whimsy, plus the horror is throwing me a little bit, but I think we can do it.

JENEA: I'm excited.

ANNE: Jenea, let's start gentle and then get weird. I actually think a good place to begin might be with an old book. How do you feel about that?

[00:27:06] JENEA: Yes, books are timeless to me. I like an old book.

ANNE: I'm really wondering about going back to Shirley Jackson. How do you feel about that?

JENEA: I don't think I've ever read the Shirley Jackson book, so sounds interesting.

ANNE: She has definitely written some terrifying books that are not whimsical at all. But I still have a visceral memory of reading The Lottery in, I think, middle school, which middle school and was a scaredy cat. And I mean, she writes stories that stay with you forever.

But the one that I think could be really good for this season of your reading life is The Haunting of Hill House. Now, I'm talking about The Lottery, which is, I think, terrifying, but I do think that all her stories really have a way of sticking with you.

She writes characters that are just weird enough to inject a little bit of a "Oh, my gosh, what in the world?" Like almost delightful element into the story. And I think this creepy tale really embodies that.

[00:28:08] In this book, a scholar for the occult invites guests to Hill House, searching for proof of whether it's really haunted. So the question of this book is, and of the scholar that you get invited into the debate and settling the answer, are these ghosts real, or are the ghosts only in their heads? And really as the reader, it is up for you to ultimately make the decision. How does that sound?

JENEA: That sounds great. And when you mentioned The Lottery, that woke up a memory for me. I think I also read that in middle school. And it fits the story I'm thinking of. That gives me a great feeling for how this book is going to go, because I also thought it was incredibly creepy but really interesting. So this sounds like it would be thought-provoking. I do like a book that leaves me to figure it out on my own.

ANNE: It really does. I mean, for that reason, this is not a book that you would bring to your family book club that reads books by Black authors. But it is a book that you could really interrogate with a book club because the question is like, "I don't know. What do you think?"

[00:29:15] JENEA: Right. Right. So I will convince other friends to read it also.

ANNE: I really like the sound of that. Jenea, when you said that you were looking for a combination of whimsy plus horror, there's a book that came immediately to mind by Scott Hawkins. It's called The Library at Mount Char. Is this a book that you know or that you've read?

JENEA: No, I've never heard of it.

ANNE: Okay. This came out in about 2015. It's been a long time since I picked this up, I feel like I'm not going to do this description justice. But this is a fantasy novel that definitely has a touch of horror. It's an adult novel, but I can totally see this as being like in the Alex Award category where a young adult could pick it up and love it. The worldbuilding and character development that you like are really well done here.

And for your Halloween reads, it is atmospheric, it is creepy and it's also grim. Like, this is definitely like dark whimsy.

[00:30:15] But in this book, we meet Carolyn, the librarian, and her father has gone missing. And the question is like, where is he? Could he be dead? And how is she going to find him? But she can't imagine how that could have happened because her father himself is nearly omniscient. I mean, he almost has power to do whatever he wants to do.

And then we find out that Carolyn herself has powers that go far beyond that of what we think of as a typical librarian. Like, she speaks all kinds of languages, even the languages of the storms.

We also discover that the library here seems to contain all knowledge and that Carolyn and the dozen siblings in total were all trained there by her father, and they all have these very niche specialties. So the question becomes the father is gone, which of the 12 siblings is going to get the library and all the power that goes with it?

[00:31:15] This is a complex book. I think it does have that character development and worldbuilding that you really like. I think you'll find this very page-turner. Now, we already know that you like to pick up a book for just 5 minutes at a time. Like you don't feel like you need a long period of time to feel like you want to get back to it and find out what happens next in the story, but I think this could be an interesting dive for you.

It's not for squeamish readers. Like, Jenea, I know you're not a scaredy cat. There are periods of calm in between the moments of actual terror. But I think the slow revelation of who the characters are, what powers they have, what it means for everybody, and the sense of growing dread that Hawkins injects in the story... This book is a vibe, and I think it could be the right one for this time of year. How does that sound?

JENEA: That sounds great. That book sounds like it has a lot going on in the best of ways. Like, I can't help but find something interesting about it. I'm sure of it.

[00:32:19] ANNE: I am glad to hear that. Jenea, there's also a fairly new novella. It came out in the spring. It's vacation horror set in Greece. So I think the mood is right for fall. But this is set in a luxurious and very different climate than where we are right now. But I really am wondering about...

I mean, this book is unconventional and different and fun, and it's 100 pages. It doesn't bother you when you're not getting through books, but maybe it'd be fun to knock something off that's just really unusual quickly. Is any of this sounding like it might have some appeal for you?

JENEA: Yeah. This one's interesting to me.

ANNE: Okay. The book I have in mind is Narcissus by Adam Godfrey. I think this is the debut novella. This is the story of four friends on vacation in Greece who get themselves into a whole heap of trouble. For those who love the classics and that kind of thing, this is a retelling of the myth of Narcissus.

[00:33:20] So what happens is these four friends are on vacation and they're out drinking one night and they're talking to the bartender and they start hearing people sharing stories of some bad luck that has haunted a specific place in Greece where they're traveling. And these friends are convinced, like, No, that can't be real. We're going to go check it out for ourselves.

But they end up paying $20 to the dude at the bar to give them the lowdown on the situation because they're going to go investigate. And what happened was, I think it's precisely 32 years ago, six friends disappeared at the spot on the island, came to be known as the Sinister Six. And the legend is that Narcissus, who they talk about as being a demigod, has come to haunt this underground pool and his spirit is like sleeping within. And anyone who goes to disturb Narcissus, sleeping in his pool will be haunted.

[00:34:20] The curse is that they can only stay alive, once they've woken the spirit, as long as they can avoid their own reflection. So the four friends who are like, "Whatever, this is our fake. Let's go. You know, often a little field trip because woo vacation, fun, myths, rumors, urban legends. Like let's go check out that," end up in a situation where they are fighting for their life. And the way that looks is like trying to avoid their own reflection. It's weird and fast moving and I don't... How does that sound to you?

JENEA: That sounds really interesting. I am probably along with a lot of other people in my age went through a huge Greek mythology phase when the Percy Jackson series came out. So I-

ANNE: Yeah, of course. Of course. That's so relatable.

JENEA: So I know the myth of Narcissus, and I've always been really interested in it. And I love retellings of stories. So this sounds really interesting to me, actually.

ANNE: Okay. I'm so glad to hear it. Can we talk about books that might just be a little bit heavier to put on your radar so they're there for you when you want them?

JENEA: Oh, yeah.

[00:35:27] ANNE: Okay. So I know the screen adaptation just came out, but surely The Other Black Girl is on your radar?

JENEA: Yes, I've actually read that one. It was a book club pick.

ANNE: Okay, good. I'm glad to hear it. The thing I really like about that, and we're talking about this novel by Zakiya Dalila Harris, is it is horror and social commentary and a realistic book set in the world of publishing to a point. But also the secret of where the power is coming from, it felt like it might be something you would enjoy. Did that actually end up being the case?

JENEA: The secret itself is something I enjoyed. I felt like that book was very original kind of in its storytelling. Like, I think Black hair care is something that is so traditional and important, especially to like young Black women. And I think that everything about that book, everything about the reveal and everything about kind of her experiences in the workplace I found to be... well, you described it as something kind of heavy. I found it to be just light and relatable in subtle ways.

[00:36:41] ANNE: I'm so glad to hear that. This book was a window, not a mirror for me because I'm a White woman. And I was like learning. I did not know the things they're talking about about Black hair care. But I've loved hearing readers' perspectives for whom they're like, Yes, that is my life.

There's actually a really great bonus episode in our patron community—so patrons, you have access to this any time—where our What Should I Read Next? alum Shantae Hopkins and our team member Shannan Malone talk, as two Black women, about reading that book. And they really get into the hair care. And I love that conversation so much. And just to learn from it, because I had a very different experience as a reader. I really enjoyed the book though. I cannot wait to see what she writes next. I will definitely be picking that up.

I wonder about... because I said the darker books, I'm like, Well, this one's a little bit whimsical like the killer ocean mermaids. Have you read the Killer Mermaids?

JENEA: The Killer Mermaids? No, but I will look it up.

ANNE: Oh, okay. We have to talk about it now. The book is Into the Drowning Deep by Mira Grant. I feel like this is the book that our team member, Brenna Fredericks, sent around the internet when she recommended it to me and I talked about on the show. And it's an irresistible premise, which is that mermaids are real. But they're not friendly. They're not like singing songs in the ocean for Disney movies. They are terrifying.

[00:38:01] They're actually properly known as sirens. And some researchers have made studying these sirens their life's work. Other researchers are deeply skeptical. But regardless of what these various scientists believe, they are seeking, as a community, to go get some answers because they are about to send a voyage to the Mariana Trench, which is a follow-up and hopefully redemption of a voyage that happened seven years earlier that ended in tragedy with everyone on board lost at sea.

And it was footage from that, but no one believed it. It seemed like a hoax. But in this book, the ship set sail. The whole thing is going to be recorded for a documentary. They're about to find out that these sirens are very real. They are terrifying. And it will be an absolute miracle if anyone gets off that boat alive.

This is a good, I think, starter book for horror, scaredy cats. There are definitely some huge gasp moments and there's some blood. Like not a ton of super graphic stuff. But these sirens are out to kill people. But the premise is just so great, and the way is executed is just so much fun. How does that sound to you?

[00:39:15] JENEA: I don't think there was a way for that book to not sound interesting. Definitely will be looking into it.

ANNE: All right. I am glad to hear that. Now, before you said the word 'whimsy', I was wondering about some books that are heavier, but also so entertaining and so thoughtfully done and that have amazing worldbuilding. Are you interested in hearing about those? I don't want to foist books upon you. We've talked about a lot today.

JENEA: Oh, no. I'm still interested in the heavy books.

ANNE: Okay.

JENEA: Give them all to me.

ANNE: Have you read Dread Nation by Justina Ireland?

JENEA: No, I have not.

ANNE: Okay. I don't know if you've read anything by her, but I love her description of why she writes horror. That really made me think, "Oh, it's really worth even as a scaredy cat investigating this genre more." I mean, I have warmed up. Like readers have held my hand to help me wade into these waters.

But she says the things that scare people are always the most interesting to write about. She thinks like, Well, if it scares you, it has power, it has meaning. There's something there.

JENEA: Right.

[00:40:19] ANNE: And something else, though, that means she necessarily writes about is that she ends up writing about issues of equality in representation of marginalized groups because she thinks that is something that terrifies people.

So Dread Nation, it's a duology. And these are Civil War-era books that really accurately display post-reconstruction America, except with zombies. In her world, the ending of the Civil War was the zombie apocalypse that started at Gettysburg. She says that this was really fun to write because they're old-timey zombies with corsets and they're restless dead. Like, What more could a reader want?

But she also says, as much as you're enjoying, you know, watching the undead be the reason the Civil War ended is that she says that she thinks a lot of readers don't understand what happened between the Civil War and the Civil Rights Movement for Black people. So she really wanted to center the idea of Black people actually living their lives and existing in this time period but with zombies.

[00:41:21] And the main character, her name is Jane, and she is living her best life and she's thriving. She has like the bravado and swagger that are really endearing. She's larger than life. Justina Ireland says she takes no nonsense from anyone, but she is, as a Black girl, responsible for fighting the zombies because the setup of this world is it is Black and indigenous young people whose duty it is to fight the shamblers. They call the zombies shamblers in the book.

This is exciting. It's fast-paced. It has that thoughtful worldbuilding and good character development, even as the plot is zip zip zipping along that you enjoy. How does that sound to you?

JENEA: Yeah, that sounds really interesting. Oh, I love zombies. I don't know. Zombies are always cool, no matter what year it is. Old-time zombies sounds especially interesting. I think I might even save this next up for a book club pick, so I might recommend this next for book club.

[00:42:24] ANNE: Ooh. Well, I'd be curious to hear what your grandmother and your family members think about this one. And then I'm wondering, since you did enjoy Octavia Butler so much, the book recommended by your grandmother, I had to ask if you've read any Tananarive Due.

JENEA: I just saw her in person at the National Book Festival. She was giving a talk on her writing in general, and I bought a book of hers. I haven't started it yet, though. I don't even know which book I bought. I just picked up a book after the talk because she sounded so interesting.

ANNE: Okay. Well, I'm glad she's on your radar. She and Octavia Butler were friends and she's talked about reading and rereading Octavia Butler, the Earthseed parables like Parable of the Sower especially. She first landed on my radar when a bookseller said, "Anne, if you ever get ready to read seriously scary and seriously good stuff, this is the direction that you want to go in." But I'm so glad that you've already made her acquaintance.

[00:43:27] JENEA: Nice. Then I'll put that book higher up on my TBR list, the growing list of books I should read.

ANNE: Do you know what the one is that you picked up?

JENEA: No. And I wish I did now. It had to have been something that recently came out because it was featured.

ANNE: The Wishing Pool is her most recent one.

JENEA: Yes, that's definitely it. The Wishing Pool.

ANNE: Okay. Amazing. All right, Jenea, we covered a lot of ground today. Now, the books we really talked about, they were The Haunting of Hill House by Shirley Jackson, The Library at Mount Char by Scott Hawkins, Narcissus by Adam Godfrey. We talked about the book you read, The Other Black Girl by Zakiya Dalila Harris, Into the Drowning Deep, which is Mira Grant's Killer Mermaids, and Dread Nation by Justina Ireland. Of those books, what do you think you might pick up next?

[00:44:18] JENEA: I think it'll be Narcissus first. It's probably the shortest book we mentioned, so I think it'll be fun to check something off of my list first. And it sounded really interesting, kind of reminiscent of like slasher movies where a group of young people get into some shenanigans. So I can't wait to start on that one.

ANNE: Yeah, that sounds like a great description to me. Well, I can't wait to hear what you think. And I hope you have a wonderfully spine-tingling Halloween season.

JENEA: Thank you. You too.

ANNE: Oh, thank you. I enjoyed our conversation so much. Thanks for talking books with me today.

JENEA: Thank you.

[00:44:57] ANNE: Hey readers, I hope you enjoyed my discussion with Jenea, and I'd love to hear what you think she should read next. Find Jenea on Instagram @viewsfromthepage and find the full list of titles we talked about at whatshouldireadnextpodcast.com.

Connect with us on Instagram @Whatshouldireadnext. We love seeing you tag us when you share your favorite episodes or what you've been reading lately. You'll find me there too. I'm @annebogel.

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Thanks to the people who make this show happen. What Should I Read Next? is created each week by Will Bogel, Holly Wielkoszewski, and Studio D Podcast Production. Readers, that's it for this episode. Thanks so much for listening. And as Rainer Maria Rilke said, "Ah, how good it is to be among people who are reading." Happy reading, everyone.