The DNA of different book clubs

[00:00:00] SONYA DUTTA CHOUDHURY: Because I am fairly liberal in the sense that if anybody kind of says, "Oh, we're dying to come but we haven't read the book," I'm like, "Yes, I mean, for sure come because if you listen to the discussion it makes you want to read the book, then that's a great thing."

ANNE BOGEL: Hey readers, I'm Anne Bogel and this is What Should I Read Next?. Welcome to the show that's dedicated to answering the question that plagues every reader, what should I read next? We don't get bossy on this show. What we will do here is give you the information you need to choose your next read. Every week we'll talk all things books and reading and do a little literary matchmaking with one guest.

[00:00:57] Readers, fall is in full swing here at What Should I Read Next? and at Modern Mrs. Darcy. We have had such great stuff on the blog lately: Last week's guest post from Ginger on Dark Academia titles, Shannon is doing science fiction and fantasy for beginners this week, Brigid is going to be on the blog with spine-tingling but not scary reads. Our Modern Mrs. Darcy gift guide for book lovers is right around the corner and we always are publishing our fan-favorite Friday Links I Love posts.

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Readers, my guest today is a member of three unique book clubs that transcend genre and geography, and I'm so excited to talk with her about what she calls the DNA of these different book clubs. Sonya Dutta Choudhury is a writer, journalist, and former banker who splits her time these days between Mumbai and the Himalayan town of Manali.

[00:02:08] Between her home library of 10,000 titles and the books her three unique book clubs select on an ongoing basis, she's typically reading multiple titles at once. Sonya doesn't like to feel too regimented in her reading, preferring to keep the door open for something new that will surprise and delight her.

However, Sonya feels like one part of her reading life is languishing with this approach. As you will hear, she'd especially love to do more rereading but finds herself easily distracted by news her books that catch her eye. I'm excited to hear more from Sonya about how book clubs and geography influence all her reading choices and offer her some ideas to bring rereading back into her regular reading rhythm. Let's get to it.

Sonya, welcome to the show.

[00:02:51] SONYA: Thank you. I'm so excited to be here.

ANNE: Oh, the pleasure's mine. When we got your submission, we were just so excited to talk to you. So thank you for making the time today.

SONYA: It's lovely. I love your podcast and it's so amazing to be a part of it.

ANNE: Oh, that's so kind. Thank you so much. Now, Sonya, you know, our team knows a little bit about you because we got to read your submission. But would you give our readers a glimpse of who you are?

SONYA: I started my life as a banker but wound up becoming a journalist and a writer. I wrote a book called Career Rules, and I teach storytelling at a business school and write a weekly books column for the Hindustan Times. I also run three book clubs: one in Mumbai, one in Manali in the Himalayas, and one which is online.

ANNE: Oh, I'm so excited to hear about those book clubs. In fact, you suggested it may be interesting to discuss the DNA of book clubs, and I'm excited to get into that today. But first, I imagine many people, like myself, are surprised that you teach a course on storytelling at a business school. Would you say more about that?

[00:03:58] SONYA: So that's the thing. I did business, I did an MBA, and I've all done English literature as well. And I always thought that these are just two parallel lines. And then somehow the world changed and people in business started to find that they really needed to be able to tell stories, as in, you know, communicate with their teams. And you're working cross-cultural themes, and so how do you kind of be a leader and how do you express your vision if you don't tell stories?

So storytelling has become this really big thing, especially in, you know, a lot of business schools where a lot of the students come in with a very heavy STEM background. So they're typically engineers, they're very good at quantitative stuff, but they haven't had the chance to kind of study stories and look at the art and the structure of being able to construct characters and create a narrative. So that's what I do at the business school. I teach these young engineers and young quants, so to speak. I teach them the poetry of storytelling, and it's quite fun for both of us.

[00:05:14] ANNE: That sounds fascinating. Now, Sonya, tell us more about your reading life. What does reading mean to you?

SONYA: Well, my early reading life revolved around the books that I had access to. I grew up in the east of India, and my father worked at this giant steel plant, which had a township around it. We had these bungalows and gardens and a club with a library and one small bookshop in the main market. So I read whatever I could get.

But in the summer and the winter holidays, we would travel to Delhi and Manali in the Himalayas, and there there were lots and lots of books. My grandfather, he had this amazing study home library and it had books from all over the world. He spoke French and Arabic and Punjabi and Hindi and English, of course. And there were books in all of these languages.

[00:06:12] I remember as a child looking at the floor-to-ceiling bookshelves, and I just drank in the books. And I remember feeling, "Oh my God, there are just so many intriguing worlds out there and these are their stories. And my grandfather, he was [steelman?] strict. But if you were quiet and didn't make a fuss, you could sit on the floor of the library for hours on end reading one book at a time. And that's what I did.

And then we'd go to Manali, and it was full of books too. And these were a different kind. There were lots of books of travel on the mountains, and for some reason, on the World War. So I read books like The Dam Busters, The Guns of Navarone, The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich.

Then I went through a reading slump in college, and when I was doing my MBA. I came back to reading after my daughters were born. We were in Mumbai, I had married a reader, we had access to libraries and we were slowly starting to build our home library as well.

[00:07:10] My parents had moved to New York and I'd visit them, you know, with my baby girls and we would spend hours at the Pelham library, the Mid-Manhattan Library, and I'd come back with suitcases full of books from the library sales. I used to read whatever came my way. But now books are available in all sorts of formats and we have a large home library as well. So now I'm spoiled for choice.

ANNE: Tell me more about that home library.

SONYA: So we have books everywhere. We have floor-to-ceiling bookshelves. The books are still spilling out. My three daughters read as well, and so does my husband. I sometimes feel like I'm a librarian because whenever I go there, you know, books piled everywhere and I'm like, "Hmm, okay, this goes back into the travel section," or "That goes back there." So I'm constantly piling and shelving books. But it's kind of fun as well.

ANNE: Yes, I imagine many readers relate to that. Sonya, I would love to hear more about your book clubs, which I'll sound... Well, I was going to say they all sound very different, but tell me all about them.

[00:08:19] SONYA: Yes, they are very different. And they kind of grew very organically. I started the first one 20 years ago because I just found I was at home with these three little babies and I was reading a lot. And then whoever I'd meet, I'd start chattering about whatever book I was reading. Like, "Oh my God, you know this Life of Pi. Can you believe there was a tiger called Richard Parker? Maybe he wasn't there at all." And you know, then just this person would have this kind of glazed expression in their eyes. And I'd be like, "Oh, my God, I should stop now."

So I decided, "Okay, I think I should find more readers." And I kind of put up a notice and I put it in the bookstore and the local theater that if you want to discuss books, then email me and all of that. So that's how the first book club started.

We live in Mumbai, and so there are a lot of people who are working as professionals in the corporate field, in marketing and finance and consulting and all of these. So that book club tends to have a certain DNA in terms of we read a lot of nonfiction as well. And we do read fiction, but it's more contemporary and it's very functional in a sense. So that's the Bombay Book Club.

[00:09:42] And then recently in the pandemic, we got kind of marooned in Manali because they kind of shut down all the flights and the trains, and we were there for two weeks, and we ended up spending two years there.

ANNE: Oh, gosh.

SONYA: Yeah. It was a little bewildering and a little startling in the beginning, but after a while we kind of got used to it, and we started a book club. And that book club's very different because Manali has people who've lived in the mountains and then there are people who've come from different parts of the world and who've consciously chosen to move away from the rough and tumble of the city life and to take it slow, to be close to the earth, to live local.

[00:10:30] So we read many more travel logs, stories of traveling in the mountains, stories of searches, you know, books like The Snow Leopard, a book about indigenous cultures like Braiding Sweetgrass or Jamaica Kincaid's Among Flowers. So that's the kind of different interest level and the interest areas of the Manali book club.

And then the third book club, the online one, is from women all over the world. And they live like in the US, Singapore, Hong Kong, England, and India, of course. These are all women who went to the Indian Institute of Management. So it's like an alumni book club. And when I look at our reading over the last few years, I find that we tend to go for the counter-narratives, the retellings, the feminist stories, historical stories of women that, you know, no one has ever talked about up to now, family sagas set in, say, Korea or East Asia, and then memoirs of women in the corporate world Like My Life in Full by Indra Nooyi. So that's a different genre altogether.

Each book club has a completely different vibe about it. Though we all love books and we all talk a lot about books, but the DNA is probably what differentiates us.

[00:11:53] ANNE: I imagine, given your experience in these three different book clubs over the years, you've had a lot of time to reflect on what shapes a book club's feeling and personality.

SONYA: Absolutely, Anne, absolutely. And I think there's so many issues here. And also, because I'm kind of interested in book communities, I talk to people who are in other book clubs as well. So we've talked here about the kinds of books that different book clubs read.

But there's also a lot around the administration and the rules and regulations of the book club. So what happens if you read half a book? Is it okay to attend? What happens if you haven't read a book? What happens if you intend to come but don't make it three meetings running. There are all these issues. A lot of book clubs will simply throw you out if you don't stick to the rules. So there's that as well.

ANNE: I would love to hear more about that. But, Sonya, you hinted that there was a time when you got thrown out of a book club. Now seems like the right moment to hear that story.

[00:12:57] SONYA: Oh, my God, it traumatized me for so many years.

ANNE: Oh, I'm laughing, but I'm so sorry.

SONYA: You know, that's the thing. I couldn't fathom why. Very often people don't tell you why, right? So you're kind of guessing. This lady just said, "We did take in some new members, but it didn't really work out. So we think that the new members, of which I was one, it's okay they don't come back." I was like, "Okay, what did I do?" And I really couldn't think about it.

There were a couple of times I didn't show up because that was the time I had very small children. So I was always scrambling and there was always some last-minute crisis, and this book club was an hour's drive away. So I think I just defaulted on attendance and possibly that was it.

ANNE: Oh, but you don't know. You were just uninvited from future meetings.

SONYA: Yes.

ANNE: Oh gosh, that would be traumatic.

SONYA: It was. It was.

[00:13:58] ANNE: Does that influence what kind of book club member you are today in these three different communities?

SONYA: It does. It does, because I am fairly liberal in the sense that if anybody kind of says, "Oh, we're dying to come but we haven't read the book." I'm like, "Yes. I mean, for sure come because if you listen to the discussion and it makes you want to read the book, then that's a great thing."

ANNE: Yes, I can see how you would be inclined to be hospitable. Especially it sounds like in some of these clubs you are not just a follower of the rules, but really a shaper of the rules and culture of the community.

SONYA: Yes, that's true. You know, the other thing is that people want to meet and talk about books. So there is that intention. And very often life intervenes. So I don't want to hold it against them that, Oh, you didn't show up three times running, so you're out. I don't want to do that because I recognize that this is something they want to do.

[00:14:58] ANNE: What else have you observed about how the guidelines in place in a particular community changed the way it feels to the readers there?

SONYA: Of course, a lot of it is geographical because you tend to read a lot around the country you live in or the area or the city you live in. A lot has to do with what the people in the book club are doing and whether they're readers or not. There are a lot of people who want to be readers, and joining a book club is one of the ways.

So if you're in an early readers sort of book club, the choice tends to be a lot of award-winning books. So you go for The Booker, the Nobel’s, you go for books that win prizes. And that's a good way to go, actually, because, you know, almost always they reflect themes that are important and themes that are good to discuss. So there's that as well. I think it's the expertise and the reading levels of the readers.

[00:16:03] ANNE: That's so interesting. Now, there's a part of me that really wants to ask which one of these book clubs is your favorite but that does seem an unfair question. So instead, I'd love to hear what each book club adds to your reading life.

SONYA: Oh, my God, that's such a lovely question. I think that each of them brings in a different approach. So, say, the Bombay book club, I tend to... if I'm left to myself, I will just move from one fiction book to another. That kind of pulls me into reading nonfiction, which I enjoy. So we read a lot of history, we read sociology, we read a lot of tech. Those are great stories, and I'm very grateful to the different people in the book club for introducing me to those.

The Manali book club book club, gosh, the kind of earthy stories. And the kind of writers that come up are writers that I wouldn't have encountered ever on my own. So again, that's added a huge dimension to my life. I think it kind of coincided at a time when my kids were growing up and leaving home and I had the time to reflect on what I wanted to do and to reflect on the earth, so to speak, and what's happening with the planet. And all of these books they do address that in a very fundamental and in a very soulful and a haunting way. So I'm, again, very grateful to the Manali Book Club.

[00:17:45] The online reading club, it's just been so marvelous to be connected with a group of very articulate women from different parts of the globe. Some of us have never met in person, and yet, because we are all alumni of the same institute, it's a group of institutes, we have something in common. And that kind of binds us together.

We're at different stages in terms of challenging the patriarchy, challenging current narratives. So we are in different stages of being articulate, being radical, being kind of accepting. So it's just fabulous to see the interplay of all of these opinions and to kind of see the whole spectrum and to figure out, okay, where on the spectrum am I? I do see over the years that I have moved along the spectrum in a good way, and I am grateful for the IIM Book Club for that.

[00:18:50] ANNE: That's so interesting. Sonya, I imagine many listeners are thinking now about their own book clubs or the book clubs they may be in one day and will be reflecting on the personalities of those communities. I'm wondering if, based on your experience, do you have any recommendations for readers to take to their own book club communities? Perhaps this will have to do with shifting the culture, the DNA of a book club. Perhaps it won't. But I'm curious to hear what that brings to mind for you.

SONYA: I think, for me, what's very important is to be generous. And it applies to everything from the rules of the book club. So be liberal and generous with people if they don't stick to the letter of the rules. It also applies to people's opinions. Be generous with dissenting opinions. That itself is a good recipe. That's a great starter.

[00:19:48] There are also other related things like mainly food. That's really important. So I think food and drink really help. I feel that it's logical if you think about it. Because if you go back in centuries, if you look at early man and early woman, we told our stories when we sat around the campfire. And I can just picture the group there. And you know, [one has?] sort of roasted your dinner and you've eaten and drunk and now you are exchanging stories. And that's the time of bonhomie, and you're relaxed and you're sharing the day's hunting experiences and the learnings and insights of the day. So I feel that translating that into today's world, it kind of helps if you have food and drink. So I think I would add that to generosity.

[00:20:48] ANNE: I love that. Well, Sonya, that sounds lovely. Thank you for being generous with your descriptions of your various book clubs. I'm sure I'm not the only one who wishes she could sit in on a meeting sometime soon. Sonya, I would love to hear about your specific reading taste if you're ready to do so.

SONYA: Oh, yeah. Yes. Totally. Totally. Yes.

ANNE: Sonya, you know how this works. You will tell me three books you love, one book you don't, and what you've been reading lately, and we'll talk about what you may enjoy reading next. I'm so curious to hear, how did you choose these today?

SONYA: It's just really tough, Anne. Sometimes I try to look for patterns in the books I love, and I could never find any patterns. And I think it has to do with my childhood where I just read whatever I found. So I tend to enjoy a huge range of books. I thought about picking maybe two or three books that stood out for me in the last couple of years, and that's how I finally whittled down my long list or my shortlist to these three.

[00:21:54] ANNE: That sounds great. Sonya, what is the first book you love?

SONYA: So the first book is Red Notice by Bill Browder. I loved, loved this book. It's the ultimate survival story. It's very global. So you have an American fund manager who moves to Poland and then to Moscow. And this is when the Soviet Union has collapsed and there are fortunes to be made because all of these state assets, the oil and mining companies, etc., are being sold off very, very cheap.

So we have this American fund manager and he's in for the piece of action and to make some money. But of course, he gets into trouble with the Russian oligarchs and with Putin himself. So it's really dramatic and exciting and it's all true.

Bill Browder does it really well. So it's like a crazy thriller and there are secondary characters and a love story as well. So it's got everything. One of these characters, Sergei Magnitsky, because of this whole struggle and fight with the oligarchs, he gets thrown into prison. And Bill Browder goes on a crusade to get him released. And that's quite a story too. He actually get the American government to pass an act, The Sergei Magnitsky Act. So if you Google that, you will get that part of the story. It all happened. The book is really mesmerizing.

[00:23:20] ANNE: Yes, I've not read this myself, but I've heard it described as a real-life political thriller.

SONYA: Yes, it is. And it's just crazy that all of this could happen. I was listening to it on audio when I was going for my morning walk, and I would just not want to come back, and I take longer and longer walks.

ANNE: That's a wonderful sign of a good book. I'm so surprised by the love story, though. I did not see that coming.

SONYA: Yeah, I think because it's true he marries this Russian girl. So that's part of it as well. So it's a large chunk of his life and it's just real life. But it's so fantastic. It's like, you know, truth is stranger than fiction. So this is the book that completely sort of shows that.

ANNE: I see. Okay, that was Red Notice by Bill Browder. Sonya, what's the second book you love?

SONYA: Second book is Black Narcissus by Rumer Godden. I love books that give you a sense of the landscape, and Black Narcissus totally does that. It's the story of these English nuns who travel to the Himalayas to set up a convent. One of these nuns, her faith is being tested by something wild and other world which is in the landscape of the mountains itself, and also by this Englishman who's kind of surrendered to the landscape and he's gone native. So it's the book and the writing has this very brooding quality about it, and it's like a slow burn, very, very atmospheric story. It just enthralled me.

[00:24:57] ANNE: This is one of Rumer Godden's lesser-known novels, or at least that's my perspective from the US. Do you believe that's the case where you are?

SONYA: So the interesting thing was that it's written back many years ago and she's been forgotten. But I did find, when I researched it, that this book especially actually caught the imagination of filmmakers, probably because of the setting, and there were two movies made on it. But it is not very well-known. So it was very thrilling for me because I find it very exciting to discover these forgotten gems. And this one for me definitely was that.

ANNE: A forgotten gem. I like the way you put that. That's Black Narcissus by Rumer Godden. Sonya, what is the third book you love?

SONYA: The third book is Babel by R.F. Kuang, I think it is pronounced. Rebecca Kuang. It's a very clever book. The protagonists are all scholarship students, young people from the colonies from India, from China, and the West Indies. They're studying at Oxford and they yet must choose where their loyalties lie. Do they lie with the Empire or do they lie with their countries?

[00:26:10] And the story is a historical fiction, so it's set at the time of the Opium Wars. This is when England wanted to supply ships and ships full of opium to the Chinese market. And the Chinese emperor says, "No, this is making my people addicts, and I forbid you to sell opium to China." And the English absolutely refused to accept this and actually fight more than one war for the right to sell opium to the Chinese people." That's how crazy it was. All of this happened, but of course, countries don't like to talk about this now. I love that this book does that. And it does it in a very entertaining way with such a sense of history.

ANNE: Yes. And this is the most contemporary of the books that you've chosen.

SONYA: It is. I think it's a 2022 book.

ANNE: I'm wondering, what does the mix look like in your reading life when it comes to old and new?

SONYA: I would love to balance it more. I find that I read a lot of new books. I can never resist the books that are out new and there's a buzz about them. Like I'm dying to just jump into them and discover what they're about. I feel that I want to kind of go back in time and also read the older books, and I'm not sure how to do that.

[00:27:30] ANNE: Okay. I can appreciate that with there only being so much reading time and so many books that look enticing. We'll talk about that more. Sonya, what about a book that was not right for you?

SONYA: A book that I really didn't like was The White Tiger by Aravind Adiga. My beef with this book was the way... I felt it pandered to a very colonial, very stereotyped view of India. So, you know, it's exotic. So there's this tiger, and it's corrupt and, oh, my God, look at the court system, how crazy it is. And the court system is crazy. That's true. Yet when I read this book, I felt the author was kind of capitalizing on it. "Let me exhibit this" rather than "let's together understand what it's about."

It's a very easy read. The story is fast-paced and very dramatic. There's a low-caste hero who lies and murders and he goes from rags to riches and... You know, he's telling us the story, so it's supposedly irreverent. But it just jarred on me because I didn't feel that this character would have a voice like this. It just seemed as if there was this supercilious author talking in his character.

[00:28:49] But I think what upset me the most about this was that this novel is so stereotyped with so few nuances, but it went on to win the Booker Prize. I always felt that literary prizes are political. But The White Tiger winning this, it just brought this home to me very forcefully.

ANNE: Sonya, I'm thinking now about what you specifically said about book clubs, about mood and tone and hospitality. And you just said that you had hoped to understand more and to feel understood as a reader by reading this book. And I'm just wondering if that mood and tone and hospitality are things that you want true of your books and not just the communities of readers who enjoy them.

SONYA: That's such a lovely way to put it. And I didn't think of it, but now that you say it, absolutely. Absolutely. I think I was looking for more nuance. I love the way you put it.

[00:29:49] ANNE: Okay, we'll think about that. We'll think about that as we look at what you may enjoy reading next, and especially thinking about that. Maybe the tone, the way the author is approaching the story, and the way the author is approaching you as a reader as well, perhaps.

SONYA: I think so. The way the author talks to you really makes or breaks the book.

ANNE: Okay. Thank you for telling me about that. Sonya, what have you been reading lately?

SONYA: I've been reading The Patriarchs by Angela Saini. I loved her last book. It was called Inferior, and it explores how women were systematically kept out of science, and the theories were advanced by everybody from Darwin onwards, explaining as to why women are fundamentally unsuitable—they don't have the scientific temperament.

In this book, she traces how patriarchy comes to be a power structure and how it establishes itself as the natural truth though it's really completely a construct. She does that very articulately. She uses a great deal of evidence. I just find I so enjoy her writing.

[00:31:03] ANNE: That sounds like it could be a pick for your online book club.

SONYA: Completely. That's true. I think they would revere in it. They'd find it very engaging, especially since, you know, this is something that we do look at a lot in terms of these narratives. Where have they come from? Do we accept them? And we do do a lot of that when it comes to any character or situation. So this analysis is completely above street, so to speak.

ANNE: That makes sense based on what you said. What else have you been reading lately?

SONYA: Another book I really loved was The Covenant of Water, which is by Abraham Verghese. Again, it's a very landscape-based book. So it's set in Kerala, which is in the south of India, which is this beautiful emerald green sort of topography. And it's set on the backwaters.

[00:32:03] The story has a really wide canvas. He starts it in the 1900s. It opens with this 12-year-old girl who is to be married to a 40-year-old widower. And that's something that did happen and perhaps even now happens, but less often. And then it goes through the generations. I just love how he kind of pulls in so many themes. At one point I was like, "Oh, my God, all of these threads, what is he going to do with them? But as you go through the book, all the threads begin to come together. He's such a storyteller.

ANNE: I love that one myself, and I'm quite envious of how, given where you are in the world, you can picture the scenery realistically where I had to Google quite a bit, quite a bit to get a sense of what the landscapes you describe vividly look like.

SONYA: You should take it as your cue to visit Kerala.

ANNE: I think I said, I really do. Sonya, what are you looking for in your reading life right now?

[00:33:05] SONYA: I think what I'm looking for is to discover more of hidden gems, to find offbeat books. So that's one. The other thing that I struggle with is that I don't reread books anymore. I used to reread a lot in my youth. And I miss that. I miss going back to a book and kind of marinating in it and really looking at it and getting into that world of characters.

And I'm not sure how to do it because I don't resolve every now and then. Okay, I'm going to pick this author. I'm going to maybe look at Edith Wharton and go through all of her books or reread The Age of Innocence again or read something else. And then, you know, there's this brand new title that I see in a bookstore or I read a review of and I'm like, "Okay, I need to explore this one."

ANNE: Oh, that is the laugh of understanding. Maybe you need a fourth book club.

SONYA: To do old reads, right?

ANNE: Maybe you do.

[00:34:10] SONYA: Yeah, that's a great idea. And this is a problem that a lot of people do face, that they want to go back and read classics and they want to read not what's the trendy thing, right, the latest New York Times bestseller. That's all right. And everybody's reading it and maybe we'd be happy to read it. But we also want to go back and read something which was written maybe 50, 40, 50 years ago.

ANNE: It is true. It is true. That is the tension that many readers, oh, gosh, and definitely including myself, experience often. Sonya, you mentioned something in your submission about an experience you have with The Salinger Year, and I'd love to hear about that.

SONYA: Oh yeah, I'd love that. I read this book called The Salinger Year. In this, the author decides to just get into the Salinger world. She spends that year just immersing herself in the books, in the story of the man and the author, and how the books came about. I fell in love with that idea and I decided, "Okay, I'm going to do this is a project. I'm just going to pick a writer and I'm just going to kind of read about their life and also read their work at the same time."

[00:35:28] And somehow I think the closest that I got to it was that I did an exercise with Steinbeck. Steinbeck has a book which he's written, Journal of a Novel, which he wrote while he was writing East of Eden. I read both books together and that was just a fantastic experience because you're reading the story and then you're reading the story behind the story and you're kind of seeing how the art and the story is evolving. So I've always wanted to do something like that, but over a longer time.

ANNE: Yes, I still have not read this journal of a novel. But longtime listeners, if this sounds familiar to you, Shawn Smucker talked about his experience reading the same thing with East of Eden and the journal way back in Episode 84 in June 2017. Well, that sounds really intriguing, Sonya. Have you thought about what a project might look like? Like if you would do this with more Steinbeck or Wharton or one of the other authors you've considered revisiting in-depth?

[00:36:30] SONYA: I think I would like to do it with an Asian author. Because as somebody living in this part of the world, there's just so much scholarship on Western authors. In India, we are brought up on Dickens and on Steinbeck, and on Hemingway. I think I'd like to do it on Salman Rushdie. He's a very, very Bombay author. He writes very intimately about Bombay. He's also international. His writing is just absolutely fabulous. I love it. And he has quite an interesting life as well.

ANNE: That is a project I would love to hear about. You let us know when you finish that and we'll talk about it.

SONYA: Thank you. I'm encouraged by this conversation. Now I just do feel energized that that could be something I could look at. Why not?

[00:37:30] ANNE: Oh, well, I'm happy to hear that it's sounding good to you as you're describing what it could look like to yourself right now. All right, Sonya, let's see what we have here. So you love Red Notice by Bill Browder, a nonfiction journalistic work that reads like a real-life political thriller. You called it the ultimate survival story. Black Narcissus by Rumer Godden, a novel that you said had a brooding quality, was very atmospheric and also is about a group of Catholic nuns who... is it fair to say poorly understand and are poorly understood by the community that they seek to make themselves a part of?

SONYA: Yeah, I think it's both ways. And that's interesting that you bring out this distinction, and I love that you do.

ANNE: Okay. And Babel by R.F. Kuang, a historical fantasy set in 19th century Oxford, oh, about colonialism and translation and untapped potential of bars of silver and oh, gosh, we won't... We won't get into the details. That is a book I loved as well.

[00:38:37] Not for you was The White Tiger by Aravind Adiga. And lately you've been reading The Patriarchs by Angela Saini and Covenant of Water by Abraham Verghese. Sonya, I'm noticing that you have a lot of outsiders in the fiction you love.

SONYA: Outsiders?

ANNE: Maybe this is storytelling in general. You know, a person enters a community. But Red Notice, Black Narcissus, Babel, you all see either an individual or a group of people who are not part of the establishment but are looking to enter it or subvert it or change it or are harmed by it in ways that are the stuff of story.

SONYA: That is so true.

ANNE: Is that something you seek out?

SONYA: I think so, because now that you say it, A Stranger Comes to Town is the theme that's hitting me. Yes.

ANNE: That's a great way to condense that theme in a nutshell. And then we're going to think about those little-known gems, forgotten gems, hidden gems are phrases we've used today. And also, I'm going to be thinking about that outsider perspective as well.

[00:39:46] Sonya, something else you said today was that you believe where you live and where you travel influences what you read, which of course, absolutely makes sense. And I have to say I am very aware of where I live and where I travel and how I am on the opposite side of the world from you, and that my perspective is more based in the Western world. So I'm so glad to hear what you are reading, and also I definitely feel limited in my recommendations. So I just want to acknowledge that up front.

Readers, we would love to hear what you think Sonya should read next. Visit our show notes any time at whatshouldireadnextpodcast.com. You can leave a note there and comments on this episode about what you think Sonya may enjoy reading. But, Sonya, I do have ideas. Are you ready to get into them?

SONYA: Yes, I'm really excited.

ANNE: Let's start with the new. Can we start with the new?

SONYA: Totally.

ANNE: Although I will say I have not seen this book blow up, which I think is probably a good thing. Readers, this book was in our Summer Reading Guide, so it may sound familiar to you.

[00:40:49] The book I have in mind is The Centre by Ayesha Manazir Siddiqi. This is her debut, and it features some of the themes that I think you've enjoyed in your work. This is a little bit... well, a lot dystopian. Siddiqi was born in Karachi. She lives in London now. And her novel features a London-dwelling Pakistani translator who wants to excel in her craft.

This is, in many ways, a book about literature because she works to craft just brilliant translations of works she loves into works that others can enjoy that they don't speak the language, which is what translators, of course, do. And she longs to be a translator of the highest caliber. She wants to work on what she considers to be the best works, the classic works, the modern classics, the high literary fiction.

And because she wants to excel in her craft, of course, she needs to excel in the language. So when a friend mentions a potential shortcut, she is all ears. This friend tells her that he learned a language in just ten days at this new super-elite, super-secret language school that you cannot go to and enroll unless you have a connection. And he's offering to refer her.

[00:42:04] So she says, "Oh, my gosh, absolutely, yes, I want to go learn a language in ten days." But she is about to discover when she goes... And she does. She learns the language. It's amazing. Her work soars. Like she's doing amazing professionally. But the more she learns about how she is acquiring these language skills, the more uneasy she grows with what the center requires of her and of the others who are working to make all this possible for her. And yet it's not so easy just to walk away. She's irresistibly drawn because of everything she stands to gain.

I like this for you because I like the setting, I like the way that we see cultures coming together, both with people and with literature. I like the outsider angle for sure. And it definitely has strong Babel vibes. Of your favorites, Babel is the one it most resembles.

SONYA: Yes, absolutely. I love this. I haven't read it, so I'm really excited. I'm going to start it right away. I love stories about translators. I love Babel and I remember reading Intimacies by Katie Kitamura. I loved that one too.

ANNE: Oh, that's a great one to mention in this context.

[00:43:18] SONYA: I just love these translated stories because they're kind of trying to navigate two worlds, and it kind of gels with the whole literary angle. So a translator of literature is totally something that I would root for and want to read more. Plus this whole very eerie sort of bargain. The whole setup sounds so intriguing that I'm totally up for this one. Thank you.

ANNE: I'm happy to hear it. Next, you mentioned that you were reading and that you really enjoyed The Covenant of Water by Abraham Verghese. I'm wondering about going back in time to his first book, a nonfiction work that was published nearly 30 years ago in 1994. Have you read his nonfiction?

SONYA: No. Oh, I didn't even know he wrote nonfiction. Wow.

ANNE: That's a common reaction. And while this wouldn't be a reread for you, it does take you into the backlist of an author that you have recently read and enjoyed. So I hope this might give you a flavor of reading old because this book is 30 years old, but perhaps it would be easier to make it onto your actual reading list than some of the works that you find yourself struggling to get to.

[00:44:35] This story is called My Own Country: A Doctor's Story of a Town and Its People. It was first published in 1994. And what I think is so interesting about this nonfiction account in particular is how different it will read to readers today than it did read the original readers. Because this is very much about the HIV AIDS crisis globally, but specifically what he witnesses at a rural hospital where he is working during this era in Johnson City, Tennessee, which is a very small town in eastern Tennessee in the United States.

What's very clear when you pick up this book is that from his very first book, from his nonfiction work, he is such a gifted storyteller. Sonya, you teach a storytelling class and this man can craft a narrative out of real events just as easily he can out of the fictional stuff he can work with in his novels. It's just absolutely gripping from the opening moments when he is describing what it was like to be there in the hospital on the floor when the first soon-to-be diagnosed patient with HIV AIDS came into his hospital in that time in Johnson City, Tennessee.

[00:45:51] It was the city's first case. It might have been the State's first case. You'll see when you pick it up. But it's like picking up a time capsule. That's what reading this book is like. And it's also very much about that empathy and understanding. He talks about the work he does in what he describes as a culture of disease. He calls it a small island is what his hospital is in a sea of fear.

And he talks about what he sees and what his coworkers see and how they have to work together to heal people and to help people not just physically, but also very much emotionally. And even I think there's a spiritual component to what he talks about. And he talks about the moments of tenderness that make such a difference to people suffering terrible things. He talks about how never before this crisis came to his hospital had he felt so close to love and pain and how it really made him feel connected to other people.

[00:46:50] Something else I think is really interesting about this story is I'm sure readers reading it today are reading it with different eyes than you would have read in, say, 1999. Because having lived through the COVID pandemic, I think really colors how you understand his story. He's such an... I almost don't know how to say this without sounding totally sappy. But he is such an earnest and truthful storyteller. You do feel like you're hearing stories straight from a man's eyes and straight from a man's heart. How does that sound to you?

SONYA: It sounds absolutely fabulous. And just, again, you know, it ticks all the boxes for me because I've read his earlier novel as well, Cutting for Stone. I would be just fascinated to read nonfiction and just to discover that sort of aspect of the author. So, yeah, thank you. Thank you. This is perfect. It will definitely make it on my reading list because if it was reread, again, I probably would have put it aside. But this one I haven't read and it's a different geography as well.

Also, I just love the themes that you've talked about, the whole healing and dealing with the doctor's struggle with fate and how fast kill and the will to heal can go. Even in The Covenant of Water, he's quite realistic about it. So it's not depressing, but it's not unrealistic. It kind of grounds you, his whole approach. And this stuff sounds very much in the same vein. So thank you. I'm really looking forward to reading this one, too.

[00:48:40] ANNE: I'm glad to hear that. Next, I have a hidden gem for you that I think has a lot going for it, but I'm not entirely sure it's going to be to your taste. So I'll tell you about it and you can be the judge. The book is O Caledonia by Elspeth Barker. Is this one that you've read or are familiar with?

SONYA: No.

ANNE: This was first published in 1991. And one strong clue it's a hidden gem is the publisher, Scribner, selected this to reissue in a new edition that just came out in 2022 so more contemporary readers could find it. I believe it was languishing out of print. And this book was called a fine debut. "Oh, the author is so promising. We can't wait to read what she writes next" when it came out in 1991. But it turned out to be the only novel she ever published.

This has a lot of the same vibes that you enjoyed in the Rumer Godden book. It's got a gothic tale. It's set in Scotland. It is wildly lushly atmospheric. It feels very brooding like a Bronte.

[00:49:46] This is a coming-of-age story of a sort, although it is an account of a short life because it begins with the female protagonist's murder at the age of 16 and then goes back in time to explore her life from birth to that early death at the age of 16. And you see her relationships with her siblings and why they were tumultuous and how they betrayed her and how her parents, especially her mother, did her wrong, what she suffered during adolescence, how she found solace in books, and a bird who she called her only friend for a time.

And I have to tell you, Maggie O'Farrell wrote the introduction to this new 2022 edition, and her words are too good I have to tell you how she describes this book. She says, "The world you are about to enter in O Caledonia is one of prickly tweed coats, of grimly strict nannies, of irritatingly perfect younger sisters, of eccentric household pets, of enormous freezing castles." And I wondered if that description might grab you.

[00:50:52] She says, "It's a world where girls are just 'inferior boys' and Calvinist propriety is thrown into relief by the seductive wildness of the Scottish highland landscape." Something else that I think may interest you a widely read reader is that Elspeth Barker is kind of winking at a whole lot of different literary genres while not hewing herself firmly to anyone in particular.

So there are those Gothic references that feel very much like the Brontes. There's classical mythology. There's a Scottish literary tradition that I'm not terribly familiar with myself. There's nature writing that would make your Manali book club proud. There's Shakespeare, and there's a touch of biographical fiction here. I'm wondering how that all sounds to you.

SONYA: I just love the sound of this mix. You had me when you said brooding like the Brontes. You had me immediately. And then you added all these other elements to it and the whole Calvinist Puritan sort of structure and the landscape that kind of in conflict with it. So I'm 100% sold on this book. I'm really excited to get to it. Gosh, I have like three reads that all seem very, very compelling. So I know you're going to ask me which one I will go for first.

ANNE: Yes, I am.

[00:52:19] SONYA: And I'm like, this is a tough question.

ANNE: Well, here they are. The Center by Ayesha Manazir Siddiqi, My Own Country: A Doctor's Story of a Town and Its People by Abraham Verghese, and O Caledonia by Elspeth Barker. Sonya, you know the question, what do you think?

SONYA: This is really tough, but I think it would be a tossup between The Center and O Caledonia. You know what I'm going to do? I'm going to cheat and I'm going to get paper copies of all three, and then I'm going to make up my mind.

ANNE: Sounds good to me. And then when you have them in hand, then you can see what grabs you.

SONYA: Yeah. And then I'll probably decide the order of which one I get to first when I actually see those paper copies.

ANNE: Well, I can't wait to hear what you choose and what you end up thinking of it. Sonya, this has been such a pleasure. Thank you so much for talking with me today.

SONYA: Thank you. I've loved it. And thank you so much for the recommendations. I'm really excited about them.

[00:53:29] ANNE: Hey readers, I hope you enjoyed my discussion with Sonya, and I'd love to hear what you think she should read next. Find Sonya on Instagram @Sonyasbookbox and at her website, Sonyasbookbox.com.

And be sure to check out the full list of titles we talked about at whatshouldireadnextpodcast.com. Follow us on Instagram to see more conversation about the books we talked about in today's episode. We are there @whatshouldireadnext.

And we always love when you tag us in your posts about the episodes you're enjoying lately. My personal account on Instagram is @annebogel. If you want a glimpse of my dog Daisy, or the book mail that's coming into my house at a fast clip these days, that's the place to be, @annebogel.

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Thanks to the people who make this show happen. What Should I Read Next? is created each week by Will Bogel, Holly Wielkoszewski, and Studio D Podcast Production. Readers, that's it for this episode. Thanks so much for listening. And as Rainer Maria Rilke said, "Ah, how good it is to be among people who are reading." Happy reading, everyone.