The ingredients for a favorite read

[00:00:00] BRI MCKOY: I decided if I did a book club discussion with this, I would pair it with a very stiff gin martini, because I feel like that's something you need maybe after you do the job he's doing. Just get me a martini.

ANNE BOGEL: I thought you were going to say after reading about the job he's doing.

Hey readers, I'm Anne Bogel and this is What Should I Read Next?. Welcome to the show that's dedicated to answering the question that plagues every reader, what should I read next? We don't get bossy on this show. What we will do here is give you the information you need to choose your next read. Every week we'll talk all things books and reading and do a little literary matchmaking with one guest.

Readers, we are celebrating our 400th episode soon, and to do that, we're having a special mailbag episode. We would love to hear from you. Leave us a voicemail, send us an email, share your questions for the team or questions about the show and how it ends up in your podcast players each week. Tell us your What Should I Read Next? stories, share your favorite guests, or tell us the books you got from the show that you loved or were surprised to really enjoy.

[00:01:15] If you'd like to submit a question or tell us anything, please leave us a voicemail by calling 502-627-0663. Or send us an email at [email protected]. Please send these in by Wednesday, September 20th for inclusion in the show. Thank you in advance. We can't wait to hear from you.

And now for today's conversation. I know I'm not the only one who loves cracking open a well-written cookbook to read it like a novel. Today, I'm joined by cookbook author and fellow reader Bri McKoy to talk about the art of reading and writing cookbooks and the kitchen lessons she's distilled into her new release, The Cook's Book. As you'll hear, there are a lot of similarities to the reading life.

Bri and I had a blast talking books and cooking today. We also put a fresh spin on book flights by pairing some favorite novels with their perfect food or drink partners. Whether you're a devoted cookbook reader or you're looking at the genre with fresh eyes, whether you just want to have some fun at home or wow your book club with a perfect pairing, I think you'll find our conversation today will whet your appetite for your next culinary read. Let's get to it.

Bri, welcome to the show.

[00:02:24] BRI: Hi, Anne, thank you so much for having me.

ANNE: Oh, I'm so excited to talk. I feel like we've been talking about books between us forever, and we've been talking about doing this casually for a while. And I'm so glad the day is finally here.

BRI: Same. We really have been. It's been really fun to just talk to you on the side about books and writing books, and now look at us doing podcast

ANNE: Doing podcast. And I'm so glad we are. Okay, Bri, for those of us readers who are new to you and your work, would you tell us a little bit about yourself? Let's start with as a person and as a reader.

BRI: Yes. I, as a person, am a reader. Also, I love reading, so I'm on the right podcast. Also, I call myself an accidental home cook. It's something I really love to do. But I didn't really start cooking until after I got married, and I truly fumbled into that kitchen and had to teach myself how to cook from the ground up. But now I love it.

I'm also a military spouse. My husband Jeremy is in the Air Force and we travel every three years. So I think my love for food really ramped up there also, because it's the way that we've been able to find community, moving literally every three years.

[00:03:42] ANNE: And where are you all in the world right now? I know that you made a move not that long ago.

BRI: Yes. Almost a year ago, we moved to St. Louis. So we've loved it. We really enjoyed the city. We had no idea anything about St. Louis. We knew there was an arch and that was about it.

ANNE: And I know you and I have enjoyed talking about the independent bookstores you can check out and the reading scene and what that could be like for you as a reader and as a cookbook author.

BRI: Yes. It's been so fun to connect with you because you do know St. Louis. So I was so excited to talk with you about where do I go, where are the bookstores, where are the places to eat.

ANNE: Exactly. And it's been fun to vicariously experience St. Louis again through you. So thank you for making that possible for me. Now, Bri, we do chat a lot about what we're reading. Would you tell us a little bit about what reading means to you and what your reading life is like these days?

[00:04:31] BRI: Oh, yes. I would say I loved reading my whole life. But for a really long time, I would say until maybe my later 20s or early 30s, I really stuck to nonfiction. I had this weird concept in my head that reading didn't mean anything unless I was learning something and I could only learn something through nonfiction. It was very wild. I don't know if I got it after graduating college or what it was. But I had a really long plane trip coming up, and a friend of mine was like, "You have got to read The Nightingale by Kristin Hannah.

And I was like, "Oh, I don't really do fiction." She recommended it so highly. And I read it and I was like, "Oh, I am missing out. What weird rule did I place in my head that nonfiction is the only way to go?" And so since then, I have been all the way fully into all kinds of books, all genres. I can't get enough.

ANNE: "I don't really do fiction." You've come a long way. I'm so happy for you.

BRI: I really have.

ANNE: What do you especially enjoy as a reader these days?

[00:05:38] BRI: So a new series to me is fantasy. When I started reading, I was like, mystery thriller or historical fiction, which was what the Nightingale was, and I just really stuck there. But recently, a lot of people have been encouraging me to get into realistic fantasy. And I just do not think I could get into it. There's so much worldbuilding. There can be so many characters. But I started out with A Court of Thorns and Roses, and now I'm like all the way bought in.

ANNE: I have never read that series.

BRI: Oh, you will stop living life and only read.

ANNE: I feel like that's what I do sometimes, which sounds amazing. And also... I don't know. Listeners, you tell us. Do you want to hear about Sarah J. Maas every episode for like four while I get through the series?

BRI: Yes. Fans [inaudible 00:06:27].

ANNE: Bri, our audience is compiled of people who love books obviously, many of whom are avid readers, like people who read way more than the national average. And something that I think is really interesting about the data on avid readers is when they want to know something, they go to a book. That's true for hobbies, that's true about learning things, and that's true about things like cooking.

[00:06:53] And something I really love, as a reader, is that experience of picking up a beautiful cookbook not just to like make dinner, but to sit on the couch and read it like a novel, just like for pure entertainment. Sometimes Will jokes that some of the books I read, like hardcore flower gardening, like in-depth, like 19 different kinds of dahlias in the same bed or like really elaborate recipes that that's kind of like science fiction because that's never going to happen. Never going to happen in this house.

But you have a new cookbook called The Cook's Book, and I would love to talk about that, not just from the perspective like, Hey, let's go make dinner, which we did make dinner with one of your recipes the other night and it was delicious. But not just from that perspective, but also from a readerly perspective.

BRI: I love that. I do love reading cookbooks. Even before I started to learn to cook, there was a drawer for me. I would always find myself wandering over to the cookbook aisle in bookstores. And there was something about picking it up. It's so visual, but it also feels like a full experience with all the photos. And I love when there are stories. I love when there's different backgrounds covered, different cultures covered. I just feel like I can be transported to a different place reading just a recipe.

[00:08:08] ANNE: That's so interesting. And I have to say that is not a way of looking at it that I ever thought about it. But a good cookbook is totally immersive. Like even from the way that it lays flat on your coffee table or your kitchen counter and you can just like pour over it without even have to think about holding it open. I love photos.

I will cook from a cookbook that doesn't have photos. Hello, Joy of Cooking, that basically taught me to cook in the early aughts. But I really want my cookbooks to have photos. And I really love them to have stories about the why, the how, the what this recipe means, the funny anecdote. Those are the things I really love. But I feel like we should roll back. You do have a new cookbook out. It's called The Cook's Book. Would you tell us a little bit about it?

BRI: Yes, I wrote The Cook's Book. I think of this book as the book that I wanted when I was learning to cook. I remember being in the kitchen and truly not understanding even where to start. I didn't know anything about chicken, about salt, about seasoning. I knew nothing.

[00:09:08] So I would open up a cookbook, usually one that I would purchase just because I thought it was pretty, I wouldn't understand so many things in it. Like it would say "saute" or a pinch of this or taste and season more and I would be like, These are... It was such a foreign concept to me to taste and see if I needed to add something else. I was like, "What something else and how much is something else?" So I find myself not only with the cookbook, but also Googling, also calling my mom.

And it just felt way overwhelming to bring a meal together every night when I was relying on so many different resources with such limited understanding of this act of cooking. So The Cook's Book really was my response to here is everything that I think someone needs to become a more confident and joyful home cook. I teach a lot of techniques that are stackable in the book with recipes.

So we learn a technique and then we make a recipe. Then we stack a technique on top of that technique and we make another recipe. So the whole book is an experience. And once you've cooked through the end of it, you will have some of the most powerful skills and techniques, and recipes that you could have to be a competent home cook.

[00:10:18] ANNE: So drawing from your experience of reading and not just using cookbooks, I'm so curious to hear how you thought about that as a cookbook writer. How did you think about the readers who are going to sit down and open the book, not just for the recipes and education, which are really important, but also they're there for the actual reading experience, Similar to why we read and enjoy novels. It's so soothing and so much fun and delightful to sit down with a cookbook and read it like it's any other cookbook. Talk to me about making that happen.

BRI: That was such an important part of writing this book. In fact, once I turned the book and they were like, "This is way too many words," and I said, "I got to tell them stories. I've got stories to share." Don't worry, everybody. We got it down. It's not 800 pages.

But telling stories was really important to me because I feel like I want people to open this book and see themselves in it as well. I never want any of my recipes or any of the ways that I teach how to cook to come across as pretentious or I would never make that or I don't even know what that ingredient is or I don't have that background. I really come from the sampling of, Hey, we're the same, actually. I think we're very much the same. And let me share some stories that I think you will also have similar stories too. And then let's, together, hold hands and walk into the kitchen and cook.

[00:11:47] ANNE: That taps on some of the things that I really love in my cookbook writing when I'm reading other authors, the relatability. Like I want to know we're in this together. And oh my goodness, when you said that this is the cookbook you wished you'd had, I related to that so much. I feel like all the books I've written are... I mean, aside from the journals where I feel like, Hey, I talked to a bunch of you. I think this is a good idea. But the other books are like an exploration of trying to figure something out. Like, that's the place that I really have written from. And you kind of can invite readers along on a journey to figure that out alongside you. And I really resonated with the way you did that in The Cook's Book.

BRI: Thank you. I think that is always really a good sign when someone sits down to write a book. It's like, This is what I wish I had. Maybe I'm the one to write it.

ANNE: I think so. So, Bri, as you put all this together, what do you think makes for good cookbook writing? The kind of writing that you would want to sit with on the couch and like flip through, like you were reading The Nightingale.

[00:12:45] BRI: I really love when a cookbook author takes us into their own background, into their own culture, into the food that they grew up with. Because I truly feel like it does transform, for me, my own experience. It does feel like I'm reading a novel. I'm in their grandmother's kitchen with them. I am learning about different foods that maybe I hadn't heard of. I'm tasting them.

I love when cookbook authors can make your mouth water where you are like, I am tasting this right now. Or cookbook authors who explain an ingredient so well that I'm literally picking up my phone and adding it to my grocery list or searching like, Where can I find this? I think it is so much more helpful and a more enjoyable experience than some authors who can just be like, "Here's your recipe. Enjoy." And I'm like, "What is that? I've never heard of that ingredient. I don't know what it tastes like. I don't know what other dishes I would use it in. Why is this an important ingredient to you?" I really want to feel like I sat down with that person over coffee, and I understand exactly why they wrote that recipe and why they want me to also make the recipes.

[00:13:52] ANNE: That sounds great. And that's bringing to mind some of my favorite cookbook writing that I really enjoyed. You talked about story in family history. And that makes me think of like Jenné Claiborne's Sweet Potato Soul where she's like, "Let me tell you about my grandmother, because that's how I need to describe this book to you."

Or, oh my goodness, Bryant Terry, his book Vegetable Kingdom and Afro-Vegan. I was thinking of you because... well, I was thinking about this topic of reading cookbooks. He said in the introduction to Vegetable Kingdom that he had dozens of people tell him how much they loved his last book, Afro-Vegan. And they told him that they looked at the pictures, they read the head notes, they played his suggested songs, and they showed their friends and family the book. That's like totally that immersive experience you were talking about.

BRI: Yes.

ANNE: But they don't really cook from it. And he said, in his defense, they usually omit that they rarely cook from any of their cookbooks. But that kind of made me chuckle. It made me think a good cookbook is so much more than just recipes. But also you really want the recipes to work, which made me think of more of the relatable, funny, story-driven cookbook writers I like. Like I love Smitten Kitchen, Deb Perelman. And when we were getting ready to go to Paris, I grabbed Barefoot in Paris by Ina Garten off the shelf so I could just like, tell me about France, Ina, show me the food.

BRI: Oh, my gosh, that's so smart. I love that you grabbed a cookbook about the place that you were going to visit. That's so smart. I'm going to do that next time. I always try to get a cookbook from wherever I'm traveling. Like I want to get a cookbook from that place where I'm traveling to.

[00:15:24] ANNE: Like, as a souvenir or to get ready for your trip?

BRI: As a souvenir. Like recently, I think in London, I found a cookbook from a London author, and I brought the book back home and I made some of the recipes and it just kind of transported me back. I did the same in Thailand. Like, I just always want to grab a book and be like, I want to recreate these recipes when I get back home. Also, it is kind of like a souvenir.

ANNE: That's an amazing souvenir and also a very happy one to bring home. So I'm glad that it keeps on benefiting you now that you're home and it was worth that suitcase weight.

BRI: Yes.

ANNE: Bri, I'd love to hear about some of your favorite cookbooks that you really enjoy reading.

[00:16:03] BRI: Ruth Reichl has one called My Kitchen Year and I love it so much because it is very story-driven. It's also about, you know, she calls them like recipes that saved her life in that year. And I just love kind of it having a theme around like these are recipes that save you in some ways.

And another one I really love is called Smoke and Pickles by Edward Lee. And their recipes and stories from a new Southern kitchen who's won a lot of awards. He often, like will go into his Korean background and heritage to infuse different styles of cuisines and foods. I love when cuisines kind of like intersect with each other and see how they can play with each other. I think he does such a fantastic job of that.

ANNE: Okay, I have to blow your mind for a second. He's the local restaurateur here. You need to come to Louisville. We'll go to 610 Magnolia.

BRI: Wait? What?

ANNE: Mm-hmm.

BRI: Oh my gosh? I need to go there. It is on my list. Why have I not gone? Oh, my gosh. I'm pretty close to you now.

[00:17:03] ANNE: You are. Maybe a little far for dinner, but, you know.

BRI: Yeah. I have to spend the night.

ANNE: Just an overnighter. Easy, easy. I love that. I'll have to take another look at his cookbook knowing how much you love that work. Bri, something I really noticed in The Cook's Book and appreciated as you're trying to help people get the lay of the land and figure out how to approach what many can see as a daunting topic, and that is managing their kitchen and making dinner, which is relentless like every single night. But so many of those principles, I was really surprised to notice how similar they are to things that I believe and talk about a lot for The Reading Life.

So The Cook's Book includes, as you well know, a home cook's manifesto for everyday cooking. And I'd love for you to tell us more about that. But there are a couple points here that are so completely crossover to the reading space that I was just really struck by that. So tell us more about distilling what you've learned in the kitchen into this manifesto and why these principles matter, and perhaps not just for cooks.

[00:18:02] BRI: I wanted to come up with what I call a manifesto or principles to kick us off in the book, to just be like, Here is a foundation for you as you go into cooking. Because I don't want anyone to enter the cooking space to feel like they have to be perfect all the time. So like you said, we're cooking every night. Not every meal is going to be ten out of ten. So how do we kind of determine what was a win or how do we take the stress off of ourselves from cooking every night?

And that's where this manifesto came from. So there are ten principles that I can help. For example, one of my favorites is a recipe is a compass, not a GPS. When I first started to learn how to cook, I thought the recipe was the law. So I would see in my hand like my chicken is clearly burning but the recipe said to cook for 6 minutes and it's only been five, so I'm just going to let it keep cooking. Or would say like, add two teaspoons of salt and I'd add it and I would think that it's not salty enough, but I would add any more because I'd be like, Well, the recipe said only two teaspoons.

And what I've realized is I've gained more competence in the kitchen is I look at a recipe now as a guide. It's very helpful. I love recipes. But I can pivot away from it to meet my own taste, to meet the taste of my family, or if I don't have an ingredient on hand or if something's going awry. Like a fire or something. I can put that out. I don't have to be like, "That's weird. The recipe said this shouldn't happen."

[00:19:30] ANNE: I love that. And that made me think so much of what we put in our 2021 Summer Reading guide, actually, where in the front we say like, Think of this as your summer reading roadmap. It is not meant to be an itinerary, it is designed as a road map. Because an itinerary tells you where to go and when. But a road map shows you all the places you could explore if you wanted. And you see the similarities.

BRI: Yes. I love that because a guide gives people so much freedom and I think takes away some shame of like, I didn't get to that book, or oh, I didn't make the recipe exactly the way I thought it was going to come out. A guide brings so much more freedom.

ANNE: Yes. And it makes me think of all the times I hear from readers, like what is wrong with me? Like everybody else had one experience with this book, which first of all, was a misconception and I didn't. What am I doing wrong?

BRI: So good.

ANNE: Mm-hmm. And it kind of points to like, well, maybe it's not just you. Okay. And also principle number nine, mistakes are the best teachers. Would you talk about that? Because every week on What Should I Read Next? we ask readers, when we do do literary matchmaking, to tell us about a book that didn't work for you. Which wasn't necessarily a mistake. But I have a feeling that your principle is related to the framework of our show. Would you jump in there?

[00:20:45] BRI: I love that you asked that question, by the way. For cooking, mistakes are the best teachers, I like lean into this so hard because when I was learning to cook, if I messed up or if I failed at something, I immediately went to a place of either frustration or shame, like, something's wrong with me. I'm not a good home cook. I didn't read the recipe right. And what I was missing is that I just signed up for a course I didn't know I was enrolled in, and I just graduated because I learned a very valuable lesson.

For example, a lot of the lessons would be, you know, one time I accidentally added a lot of salt to the top of our blueberry muffins because I had not labeled the jars at all. Lesson learned. That was a mistake. These muffins are very salty. But I was like, I need to label my jars. I can't just think that I'm always going to know, especially if I'm in a rush or I've done the same with what to do if my chicken is undercooked. Okay. Like, you know what? Maybe use a meat thermometer. So it's just like instead of looking at it as, like, I messed up, I am a mess up or I screwed up, look at it and be like, Wow, I just learned a really valuable lesson that I'm probably never going to forget.

[00:21:55] ANNE: And I think sometimes the lessons are interesting. Like, you know, I think I made this recipe exactly the way I want it to fulfill its best platonic ideal, not to get too lofty. And also I don't like it. It's not to my taste.

BRI: Yes.

ANNE: Try it. Been there. You know, now I know. No, thank you.

BRI: Exactly. And that's how I feel I've learned a lot about my own tastes or how to identify tastes, which is number four, bring all your senses to the party. Like touch, taste now, all of it is because you start to pull those things out like, Oh, I don't love things super citrusy, or I actually pour through things way more salty than most people like them. And you just start to learn that, which obviously makes you a better home cook. You're able to look at recipes and very quickly know how to adjust them. I wouldn't add that much of this, but I would add a little bit more of that.

ANNE: Just for the record, when we cook together, I like things super citrusy.

BRI: Same. Oh, we're going to be fine.

ANNE: That's my jam.

BRI: I love citrus.

[00:22:56] ANNE: Something that I love about that, number four, the manifesto bring all your senses to the party is it makes me think of all the fun things that readers everywhere like to do when they're enjoying a good book and they really want to transform it into a multi-sensory experience. And I also know... we're getting back this way after the pandemic. I also know a lot of book clubs that do this, that really lean into the food and the beverage and the décor and everything when they're reading a book and they want to gather to talk about it in as multisensory way as they can.

And something that I know that you've had some fun doing this year, maybe longer than that, is pairing books with food and drink that really pull out and draw attention to some of those books elements in a new and, you know, really satisfying, tactile way. Reading happens in your head. And when you make it happen in your mouth, in your hands as well, that can just be so fun.

BRI: Yes, I love that. I love doing those kind of pairings because, for a lot of us, we are experiencing that book, but we're experiencing it maybe like solo on an airplane, in our own reading chair. And it's like, how can we make it more of an experience? Maybe I enjoy this book, drinking the same thing that the main character is drinking. Or maybe I make a recipe that was really popular in this book and then have people over to the table and we talk about the book. I love that.

[00:24:15] For example, I was trying to pair a drink with a book I recently read with my Cook's Club, and I just could not... there was not a drink that was really mentioned in the book. There wasn't a lot of food references and I was really struggling. So I was like, "I bet someone on Google has figured this out." So I went to Google and I think I just put like "book and food pairings". I put the name of the book in I believe and it was like "pairings". And what was so funny is that your website came up first. It was like the number one search. It was your guide to pairing books together. And I was like, This is so brilliant. I loved that you did that.

ANNE: Book flights from 2013. And that was Ruth Reichl's Garlic and Sapphires, wasn't it? Because we've talked about this before.

BRI: Yes. Oh, yes. That's what it was.

ANNE: Oh, my gosh. I love that book so much.

BRI: So good.

ANNE: So what I told you in that 2013 blog post was... I think it's called Reading is better when it's done wine-tasting style. And I was saying, you know like a good wine flight at a restaurant that lets you sip and compare and contrast and just really appreciate all the offerings instead of just enjoying the one? I mean, one is good, but you learn a little bit more. You have a more nuanced experience with multiple.

[00:25:31] I was saying, what if we did that with books, like purposeful pairings of books? And I talked about how... let's call it a book flight. If you Google "book flight", you'll get a lot of offerings for travel. Just heads up. You got to be a little more purposeful. So I might have offered a book flight with Garlic and Sapphires, but I did not order a beverage pairing. What did you decide to pair with that book?

BRI: I think we actually end up doing a paper plane cocktail. And it was mostly because it's really nice, bright and acidic. I feel like a lot of the foods that she ends up eating in that book are very rich and decadent. So I wanted something that would cut through all of that. So we did this really fun pink cocktail. Oh, yes, and I think I wore a pink wig to it. Like, we were like, "Let's come in costume also," because that was the whole thing in Garlic and Sapphires, she dresses up.

ANNE: So when you're thinking about pairing a book with a food or a beverage, what elements do you consider, Bri? How do you think about this?

[00:26:30] BRI: The first thing and I think the thing that is the most obvious for me is, is there a beverage or a food that is coming up a lot in this book? Like the author loves to drink something that they're often talking about, or is there a food that they are often referencing or ordering at restaurants? And whenever I see that, I immediately am like, Oh, okay, this is a very fun, easy book and food and wine pairing.

If there isn't something that's obvious to me, I kind of go with like the feel of the book. Like, Oh, this book made me feel super moody, or this book was super bright. It was set in a summer time, so maybe I want like a Frosé or a fun summer beverage. I go more into like, what do I feel? What does this book make me feel?

ANNE: Okay, so can we play a fun party game?

BRI: Yes.

ANNE: What if we talk about some books that I know you've read and enjoyed lately and you can suggest food and drink pairings that you think might make for a multi-sensory atmospheric reading experience?

BRI: Oh, I love this. This is going to be really fun.

[00:27:40] ANNE: I know that you read a romance novel that I loved last year because yours truly was this year. So some of you already know the author. This is Abby Jimenez, Part of Your World, which is such a sweet, fun, Midwestern story that's... You know what? You read it. You enjoyed this. I'll let you take it from here.

BRI: Oh, I love this book. It was like such a fine rom-com. I loved the whole different worlds. Alexis is one of the main characters, and she's an ER doctor who is being pressured by her parents to follow in their footsteps. But she finds herself in this small town. Obviously, as romcoms go, runs into a very attractive carpenter who is, of course, ten years younger than her and, you know, a fling happens. But they're both coming from such different worlds through the whole book, you're like, how are they ever going to make this work?

And so because there were two very different worlds happening in this book, I thought it would be fun to pair something like champagne, like very high class, high brow. It has to be champagne from France with a grilled cheese.

ANNE: No $7 Trader Joe's Prosecco here?

BRI: No $7-

ANNE: French champagne.

BRI: We gotta go all the way to France, we got to get the champagne and then... Yeah, something just so simple and greasy, but yummy as a grilled cheese. And I would eat and drink those together. Salty goes with champagne all the time. Salty, cheesy, gooey.

[00:29:06] ANNE: Okay, I like your style. And that never would have occurred to me. How much fun with that pairing be to have at a book club? Oh, my gosh. That would be such a good time.

BRI: So fun. And so easy. If you do it, post photos, let us know.

ANNE: It's such friendly food too-

BRI: Yes.

ANNE: ...and welcoming, which feels like the vibe of the book.

BRI: It really does.

ANNE: All right. What else have you read lately that you've got a good pairing for?

BRI: I never thought I would read a book by this author. It's Billy Summers by Stephen King. And the only book that I have read by him was his memoir called On Writing. And I loved it. I know he's an amazing author, writer. I loved his writing in his book On Writing, but I don't do paranormal books. I just... I can't. I don't do super scary books. So I just thought, I will probably never read a book from him.

But I think it was last year or two years ago, Laura Tremaine was talking about his book, Billy Summers, and she was saying, for anyone who has wanted to read a Stephen King book but cannot get into the paranormal or the gore, this is the book. So I was like, "I trust Laura, I'm going to do it." And it really is. Basically, Billy Summers is a killer for hire and he's like the best that there is in the game. But the catch is he's only going to do the job if the target is a bad guy. So he's always kind of doing his own research. Like, is this guy really bad? Will I take the job?

[00:30:34] After years of doing this, he's like done, he's ready to call it quits. He's been saving all his money. He just wants to live a quiet life. But he has to take on just one more job. Of course. Of course, there would be no book. So, of course, he has to go take one more job. And literally, everything that could go wrong goes wrong. I could not put this book down. It is very long, but I just like sink all the way into it. And I decided if I did a book club discussion with this, I would pair it with a very stiff gin martini because I feel like that's something you need maybe after you do the job he's doing, just get a martini.

ANNE: I thought you were going to say after reading about the job he's doing.

BRI: Both probably. I probably, as a reader, needed a gin martini after it. Oh, that's good.

ANNE: I love that pairing. So was it fair to say that's like a moody match?

BRI: Yes, very moody.

ANNE: I love it. I also know you really enjoyed Peter Heller's The Guide, the follow-up to The River set in a very ominous COVID-era Colorado setting.

[00:31:41] BRI: Yes. You know what? I actually think I discovered Peter Heller from listening to an episode with you.

ANNE: That makes me so happy.

BRI: I loved The River so much. I don't know if I was fully prepared for the thriller aspect of The Guide, but I loved it. I loved it. I couldn't put it down. But it's about Jack who is in the river, and he takes a summer job as a fly fishing guide at this luxury resort known as Billionaires Mile. It's like, Okay. But it's like super closed in and there's barbed wire everywhere. But Jack is like, I'm just going to do this for the summer. I'm going to help this country music star get fish basically, and go fly fishing. But he starts to notice some things on this quote-unquote, resort, and it takes a very eerie turn.

So I actually end up pairing this with instant coffee because I felt like, you know, when you're in the outdoors or even when you're camping, you know, you're waking up really early to go fly fishing, you just need to get out there. I just imagine this with some instant coffee, maybe a s'mores later in the evening as you're all sitting around the campfire. And a side note on instant coffee, I just discovered whipped coffee, which is made with instant coffee, and it is delicious. So instant coffee can be good.

ANNE: One, I'm still dubious, as much as I trust you. Two, what is whipped coffee?

[00:33:06] BRI: So whipped coffee, I believe it kind of has its roots in a bunch of different places. But I really was tracing it back more to Korea, it seems like. And it's where you take instant coffee, hot water, and some sugar, just like two tablespoons of each and you whip it. I use my coffee frother. And you whip it and it is really foamy and frothy, like a frosting almost. Like a light, airy frosting. And you just pour on top of milk. It is so good.

I feel like for people who don't have espresso makers and have wanted to try the shaken iced espresso, this is the route to go because you don't need any... I mean, you use instant coffee. You don't need any coffee maker or anything to bring it together.

ANNE: Okay. I wonder if my dubiousness here is in part because I'm a decaf drinker and my experience with decaf, instant coffee is a [hoar?]. But that sounds amazing. And you know what? I have espresso powder in the house. Really it's because of my love for the Barefoot Contessa Outrageous Brownie recipe. And Yossy Arefi's Snacking Cakes recipes, she calls for espresso powder a lot. So I wonder if we could do something with that in this house. We can drink it and I can have a sip.

[00:34:15] BRI: Oh, yes. You absolutely can. That's so smart. That's also why I had... it was Ina Garten's recipe. I was like, Well, I have this and I only ever use it very rarely.

ANNE: I love how this would also be so much fun for a book club. I mean, I wouldn't have s'mores with my friends and talk about books and drink coffee, however one makes it.

BRI: Yeah, however one makes it. Bring your own coffee.

ANNE: You really could.

BRI: Yeah. Another book that I really love that I would love to do a pairing with is The Invisible Life of Addie LaRue by V.E. Schwab. Oh my gosh, this book I was so intimidated by it because it was very thick and also a little bit outside of my genre. But I heard so many good things about it. So I was like, I've got to read it.

It is about Addie LaRue, and set in France in 1714. She basically finds herself running away because she's desperate to escape a marriage she doesn't want to be in. And in her panic, she decides that she's going to pray to the gods. It's the gods that only answer after dark, which no one is supposed to pray to. But she does because she's, like we said, desperate and panicking. And she makes a deal. Although, of course, as all deals go, this one comes with a price. And she realizes that in this deal to have a life of immortality no one will ever remember her or her name or who she is after meeting her.

[00:35:43] So you follow her through, you know, centuries and decades of her living this life where no one remembers who she is. And then one day, 300 years later, someone does remember her name. So that's also kind of a fun spin or twist in the book. And I paired this one with a chilled Zinfandel. And you and I both have a love for chilled red wine, don't we?

ANNE: We do. We've talked about it how... Gosh, where did I hear this? It might have been in Hungary, where they gave this talk at the International Wine Festival about how, look, they say your red is supposed to be at room temperature, but room temperature in old castles was like 50 degrees. It's not 72.

BRI: Yes, that's so true. I remember when I first learned about chilling red wine, I was like, What are you talking about? So I especially love chilling a red that has some really jammy notes in it or a red that's lighter. But the reason I like the Zinfandel with this book is because I feel like a Zinfandel can be kind of shocking and surprising, a little bit moody. It is still like dark and decadent, but it has those fruity notes. And so you add in that chilling element and it gives it just a little bit of brightness. So I feel like it's covering all the layers. And that's why when I sat down and read this book, I was like, I just wanted a big glass of chilled Zinfandel.

[00:37:05] ANNE: Bri, I know you and I both enjoyed Ariel Lawhon's Code Name Helene, which is a book I really enjoyed. Can I tell you a pairing story about that?

BRI: Oh, yes.

ANNE: So back in the before times in 2019, we hosted our first annual Modern Mrs. Darcy Book Club retreat in Louisville, Kentucky. It was amazing. We had one planned for 2020. It did not happen. Haven't had another one yet. But like we are treasuring these memories.

But one of the things we did is Ariel's publisher was kind enough to supply all our attendees with advance review copies of this book, which was not out yet. And she came up from Nashville to Louisville to join us to talk about the book. And I've read Helene, you know, but she is a Australian-born French spy who was key in World War II, for the resistance. Just an incredible woman, incredible story, leaps off the page. So amazing. But the French 75 cocktail is key in this book, and Ariel had never had one. So-

BRI: I can't believe that.

[00:38:09] ANNE: I know. We hosted our retreat conversation with 18 readers in a living room in Airbnb in downtown Louisville. We had French 75s to go with our discussion of Code Name Helene. I hadn't had one before either. That was new to me. But it was just so fun to enjoy a literal taste of the book and have that moment together. It was delightful.

BRI: Wait, no one can tell. Then to have the author there also tasting it for the first time, that is so fun. Something that I loved about this character in the book is that she had such a sense of self, like she knew what she liked. She always had red lipstick on. She loved her heels, even though she's like fighting in the resistance. She loved her French 75. I just felt like I knew exactly who she was.

ANNE: Yes. Now I want to read that book again talking about it.

BRI: I know. I loved that book so much.

ANNE: Okay. Let's go back to a strong sense of place, food on the page element. What would you pair with Brit Bennett's The Vanishing Half, which I know we both really enjoyed?

[00:39:11] BRI: I loved The Vanishing Half. I was revisiting this book because I was like, Oh, surely there is such a perfect pairing for this book. And very early on in the book, it talks about that small town where Stella and Desiree grew up. They're the identical twins in this book. And this small, no-name town would always have a Founder's Day dance every year. Everyone was a part of it. Everyone took part, somehow making food, bringing drinks, whatever it was.

And the two things that were really highlighted in this gathering were Rum Punch and barbecue. And I was like, Oh my gosh, that would be so fine to have a book club discussion about The Vanishing Half, such a rich, layered book, and also enjoying Rum Punch and barbecue.

ANNE: Which is right at the beginning of the book. So totally spoiler-free. Come, enjoy.

BRI: Yes.

ANNE: Welcome in. Well, I love all those ideas for pairings. I also love how you talked about how you got into cooking because food is such an important part of community and building community for you. And I love how when you have a good pairing, like sure, you can make it at home and enjoy it by yourself, but also like how fun to invite readers in to experience that with you. I know I've used the word "book club" a lot in this episode, and that's not a coincidence.

[00:40:32] BRI: It is so true. It's like, let's make this a whole experience. I don't think I realized until after talking with you a little bit how much your reading life and also your cooking life can kind of intersect. How you approach both of those things can be very similar.

ANNE: Well, you want to be smart about it. You want to know what you need to know so that you can really let go and enjoy the experience.

BRI: Exactly.

ANNE: Well, Bri, thank you so much for those wonderful ideas. And readers, if you try any of these suggestions or have your own books plus food and drink pairing options, we would love to see. Tag What Should I Read Next? on Instagram so we can check it out. And Bri, what's your handle? They can tag you as well.

BRI: It is @brimckoy. McKoy is M-C-K-O-Y, so that's always fun.

ANNE: Perfect. Thank you. And Bri, I have two very important questions for you. What are you cooking next and what are you reading next?

BRI: Okay, these are great questions. What am I cooking next? I'm actually going to be making my ribs from my book tonight, which is kind of funny, because we ended on talking about barbecue and rum punch. So maybe I need to mix up some rum punch. But I don't know. I have a craving for barbecue and I love ribs, so I'm making these ribs tonight, actually.

[00:41:45] And then what I'm reading. Okay, this is very fascinating because I actually went to the Instagram yesterday about this, but I'm so confused because I'm having a hard time getting into it. But it has gotten so much great attention and great reviews. And it's called Hello Beautiful by Ann Napolitano. And I think I'm 30% through. I do really like character-driven books and I do love dramas, but for some reason, I do not find myself picking up this book or turning to this book or thinking about this book. You know, some of those books, they have the best payoff and you're like, "I'm so glad I stuck with it." And then other books, you're like, I should just put that down. That's where I am with this book. I'm like at that intersection of do I push through or do I put it down? Do you have thoughts?

ANNE: Oh, I do. I wish you could tell me what's happening at the 30% mark without spoilers. I love that book. I also love messy, moody family dramas. That is something that I am here for. I will say I think there's a good payoff there. But that book is really like mosaic, where you get to know every individual family member living their own life and you spend a lot of time maybe feeling a little bit siloed, especially early in the book. It's so, so sad and also I think really beautifully done and touching. I think it depends on what kind of mood you're in.

[00:43:05] BRI: I think you're right. Part of me was like, maybe it's timing. Maybe I'm not in like moody family drama era right now. Because it is so sad. You said that so well—feeling a little siloed. I definitely feel like I'm looking from the outside in and I'm grasping to feel more connected that maybe it's just a put-down for now, not a put-down forever.

ANNE: I will say this. Knowing what you've enjoyed because friends, Bri, has really enjoyed some sad, beautiful, moving, lyrically written books, but I'm not sure the energy of this book matches the energy of what you're experiencing in your life right now with The Cook's Book coming out. So if you wanted a total contrast in your reading life, yes, this would be perfect. But I imagine that you want something that more matches the mood. Instead, it feels like the antidote to the mood of the rest of your life. Come back to this one in September.

BRI: Oh, that's so good. Okay, I'm going to do that. I'm going to come back to it. And I think you're right. This is not the mood I'm in. This is not the life I'm living right now.

ANNE: All right. Since I was invited to be bossy, there you go.

[00:44:09] BRI: So I love it. You can boss me all the time about books.

ANNE: But I hope you find the right book for right now. Abby Hammett has had one come out in April. Maybe that would be a good one.

BRI: Yes, you're right. Oh, that might be the one I go straight to after this.

ANNE: I wouldn't be sad about that at all. But I hope you enjoy whatever you pick up. And I'm just cheering you on in The Cook's Book. Thank you so much for lending your expertise and wonderful pairings to the podcast today.

BRI: Thank you, Anne. It was so fun talking with you. And now I'm hungry.

ANNE: Let's go get snack. Thanks, Bri.

BRI: Thanks, Anne.

[00:44:47] ANNE: Hey readers, I hope you enjoyed my discussion with Bri, and I'd love to hear what you think she should read next. Find Bri on Instagram @Brimckoy and at her website brimckoy.com. Be sure to check out the full list of titles we talked about at whatshouldireadnextpodcast.com.

If you're on Instagram, we'd love to see you there. Follow our show @whatshouldireadnextpodcast and connect with me @annebogel. We always appreciate it when you share our posts and stories with your friends and we'd love to see what you are reading, cooking, and eating lately. Show us your favorite book, food, or drink pairings, and be sure to tag us in your posts or stories.

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Thanks to the people who make this show happen. What Should I Read Next? is created each week by Will Bogel, Holly Wielkoszewski, and Studio D Podcast Production. Readers, that's it for this episode. Thanks so much for listening. And as Rainer Maria Rilke said, "Ah, how good it is to be among people who are reading." Happy reading, everyone.