[00:00:00] NADIA SUSSMAN: Look, I'm probably being cheeky sneaking in a favorite as something I've been reading lately. But I have been reading it lately. And I've just been talking about this book so much to my partner that we ended up listening to chapters together over our date nights.

ANNE BOGEL: Hey readers, I'm Anne Bogel and this is What Should I Read Next?. Welcome to the show that's dedicated to answering the question that plagues every reader, what should I read next? We don't get bossy on the show. What we will do here is give you the information you need to choose your next read. Every week we'll talk all things books and reading and do a little literary matchmaking with one guest.

Readers, we've got good stuff happening around here now at What Should I Read Next? HQ. We are getting ready for our fall book preview coming September 14th and we are gearing up to talk about fall-feeling reads like campus novels and mysteries and that spooky kind of stuff. But first, Will and I are just back from a big trip that we talked about on the podcast last week, and we're sharing lots of pictures on Instagram. Make sure you are following us there. The show account is @whatshouldireadnext, and my account is @annebogel.

[00:01:19] Now we're posting there, but if you want to actually see what we share, I really recommend you take one more step and add us to your Instagram favorites. We don't do a lot of videos and reels, which means Instagram does not prioritize our content in your feed, but if you add us to your favorites, you will see our photos of British bookstores and Spanish book covers and my overflowing office bookshelves now that I'm back home.

We'll also be sharing an amazing little doodle from today's guest—that's her word for it—that captures her reading for the past year. And you do not want to miss it. To add us to your favorites, search for What Should I Read Next and Anne Bogel, click on any post in those feeds, tap those three little dots to the right of the account name, and tap "add to favorites". And that's it. That'll do the trick. Thank you for following. Thank you for listening. We are so glad you are here.

Now for today's guest who has a big move on the horizon and is eager to stock herself with books to ease that transition. Nadia Sussman has always lived in New Zealand, where she teaches law at the University of Auckland. But in August, this August, she's moving to Michigan to pursue a master's degree. This will be Nadia's first visit to the United States, and she welcomes recommendations for books that will help her get to know her new home, as well as audiobooks that will keep her company during her 17-hour plane flight to the States. I can't wait to hear more about her big adventure and to share books she can carry into this next season of her life. Let's get to it.

Nadia, welcome to the show.

[00:02:49] NADIA: Thank you, Anne. It's wonderful to be here.

ANNE: Oh, I'm so excited to talk books with you today from the other side of the world. So while we're talking, it's 3 p.m. Tuesday in the United States. Tell me what it's like in New Zealand right now.

NADIA: I'm coming to you from Tāmaki Makaurau, Auckland, New Zealand. It's winter and it's 7 a.m..

ANNE: The next day.

NADIA: The next day.

ANNE: You'll hear more about this in a moment. But Holly on our team spent some time in New Zealand earlier this year and, oh, we made lots of time travel jokes. They probably would get real old to you.

NADIA: Yes, I'm coming to you from the future.

ANNE: But we enjoyed it. Nadia, it's a pleasure to talk. Tell us a little bit about yourself. We want to give our readers a glimpse of who you are.

NADIA: Yes. Like I said, I'm coming to you from Auckland. I grew up here and I live here now. I'm 27 years old. Outside of reading and work, I would say that I'm a runner, an artist. I like to paint in water mixable oil and I'm a gardener. And I have done all of those things while listening to this podcast.

[00:03:55] ANNE: I'm honored. Thank you.

NADIA: As for work, I qualified as a lawyer in 2021, but after a year in practice, I've u-turned back towards academia. So I've just finished a semester at the University of Auckland, where I was part of the teaching teams for the courses Law and Society and Jurisprudence. So these are an introductory courses to law in a third-year paper.

And now I'm about to embark on this big adventure. I'm moving to Michigan of all places. I've never been to the US before, but I'm going there. I'm really excited. I'm going there to do my master's in law and I'm experiencing the twin pull of... I guess you could say I relate very much to Mole in Wind in the Willows, in that home is very, very comfortable. But I'm so looking forward to discovering Ann Harbor.

ANNE: Oh, I love home as well. And also I'm so excited for your big adventure like Mole. I love it. How soon do you come to Michigan?

[00:04:58] NADIA: It's three weeks now.

ANNE: Oh, my goodness.

NADIA: I've got a big calendar out counting down. It's very, very soon.

ANNE: Okay. I'm so excited for you. Nadia, why Michigan?

NADIA: Well, honestly, it wasn't on my radar until I started researching schools. I think as many people who've been in my position will know, I applied very broadly to places where I thought, Okay, the kind of academic culture aligns with what I'm after.

So Michigan has this reputation for having quite a pragmatic, interdisciplinary, holistic approach to law. So from the academic side, that really attracted me. And then apart from that, I've only heard good things about Ann Arbor. The Master's group is a very small cohort, so there's only 40 students and it's quite an international group and you are taking classes with the JD students. So get that real immersion into what the American law school experience is like.

Also, honestly, I was fortunate to receive a scholarship to Michigan, and traveling that far for a post-grad program wouldn't really be possible without that. So that was pretty persuasive.

[00:06:13] ANNE: That's an excellent way to make a big decision like that. I've never been myself, but I can tell you that I know that I am eager to go because everyone who visits or lives there that I know loves it and they have at least two and probably more amazing bookstores I can't wait to visit, Literati Bookstore and Schuler Books. So those are my reasons. But what about you?

NADIA: Anne, I'm joining these names down. I was going to ask your listeners if they wanted to send me any bookstore recommendations that they should please do so.

ANNE: And please do. Whatshouldireadnextpodcast.com, our comments are open.

NADIA: I mean, I'm excited to have a kind of small-town experience. I've never been to the US and I heard only the things about the nature environs around. So my partner and I are... we're going over a little before my orientation starts, and we're going to explore some of northern Michigan, not what I understand to be the [sliver? 00:07:12] We're still in the mitten. But I really hope I'm not offending a whole swathe of listeners. But we're going to explore Sleeping Bear Dunes. But honestly, we understand, you know, a year is going to go by so fast. So we have this list and we're determined to make the most of it.

[00:07:32] ANNE: I love that your submission really caught our eye when you said that you want to read books set in Michigan ahead of your move. And when you land there, you can learn more about the place you're going to be a part of for this time.

NADIA: Absolutely. I have to tell you, and I apologize to the guest, I forget which guest. There was a guest on maybe a while back who was describing one of their favorites book about kind of someone's aunt had been murdered and the woman's experience of going through the trial. And I was listening to this thinking, Oh, this is going to be so perfect for my mom. And then I hear that the murder took place in Ann Arbor. And I thought, gosh, I really can't give my mom a book about someone being murdered at the University of Michigan just before I go. So I am looking for... I would love to come across some reads with kind of slightly less tragic end.

ANNE: I don't know what book that is. Oh, but I would love to find out.

[00:08:27] NADIA: I'm sorry. I used to work in a bookshop and it used to drive me dilly when someone would come in and say, "There's this book I'm looking for. I don't know what it's called. I don't know what the cover looks like. I don't know who the author is. Can you help me find it?" So I guess I, you know, have some retrospective empathy.

ANNE: Okay. And I hear the implicit request. No murders in Ann Arbor for the books we recommend to you today, Nadia.

NADIA: Thank you, Anne.

ANNE: Pinky swear, it will not happen. Now, tell us about your reading life. What does reading mean to you right now? And I know that this is something you've really been reflecting on as you're about to enter a new stage of your life that you know. And I think, Nadia, you're a little fearful about how law school is going to impact your leisure reading.

NADIA: Oh, hugely. Hugely, Anne. I mean, I was very lucky. I grew up in a bookish family. My late grandfather was a publisher for Heinemann, and my mom is an author and is one of those amazing mothers who really prioritized connecting my brother and I with books. She could be fierce about it.

[00:09:32] I emblazoned in my memory is the day she took us to get our first library cards, and she hadn't brought any documentary proof that we were local and the cruel librarian had something coming, as my mom pointed out, that my brother and I were dressed head to toe in the local school uniform. She was a passionate advocate for getting us reading.

As for my dad, he had read my brother and I the Harry Potter series. So we grew up with Harry. We really could have been reading the letter, half of the series on our own, but it had just become this really special time with our dad. So we continued. And the listeners in that reading experience... As you mentioned, as I've gotten older, I've come to credit books with having a really significant role in many of my most cherished experiences and shaping... I'm sure this is, you know, perhaps [trite?] to say shaping myself knowledge and character

So they're these really tangible examples from my life. You know, I chose my semester abroad location after becoming so enamored with Edinburgh as portrayed in Alexander MacCall Smith's series Sunday Philosophy Club and 44 Scotland Street. And in the least tangible, I've developed and continue to develop a better sense of managing being a warrior through books like The 10 PM Question, Being Mortal, The Consolations of Philosophy, First, We Make the Beast Beautiful.

[00:11:00] And then, I guess in a kind of comic way, reading revolutionized my love life. So I read Lab Girl after hearing Hope Jahren speak at the Auckland Writers Festival. I love nature writing and accessible stories about science. And really quite a minor part of the book she talks about how she asked her husband out on their first date.

And I have to admit I had formally subscribed to the unfortunate and gendered notion that it might be lame for me to ask someone out. But I figured if this woman who I so admire can do it, I should give it a shot. And it's worked out very well for me. I made the first move with my partner of three years and I have no regrets. These experiences to me really arose in part because of my reading life

[00:11:48] ANNE: Oh, that's amazing.

NADIA: Yeah. I guess this is in part why I'm choosy about what I read because I know it can chart my cause and effect, how I see the world. But I realize I didn't really answer. You asked about... I'm so sorry.

ANNE: No, you didn't, did you?

NADIA: During my undergraduate studies, non-work reading took a bit of a backseat, so I was reading about 15 books a year, which was great for me at the time. And then a couple of things happened. So I discovered Audiobooks in Libby and this podcast and just seemed to find my groove.

So last year I read 47 books, which was a lot for me. And I guess heading into this next stage where I'm going to be hitting into postgraduate study, I'm a little apprehensive about what's going to happen to my non-work reading. I expect that I will be reading a lot. It just, you know, is likely not going to be adventure stories. But I feel confident. I'm training for the Ann Arbor half marathon. I will still have Libby. I can listen to books on my long runs, but I am aware that this is going to be a transition.

[00:13:04] ANNE: It will be. I'm so excited for the season that you are about to be in. And also it's just a season. You and your reading life, I think you're going to be okay. Also, if you intend to listen to audiobooks while you're training for that half marathon, that's a lot of reading time, Nadia.

NADIA: It is. Exactly.

ANNE: So I love that you already have a plan. It doesn't sound like you feel like you have a solid plan, but this sounds like a good plan to me.

NADIA: Thank you. Yes, no, I have some solos in there. I'm a slow runner as well, so I'll really get the extra minutes in that.

ANNE: Wonderful. Plus, you're going to listen to at least one book while you're unpacking.

NADIA: Exactly.

ANNE: You'll be in good shape. Nadia, I'm so excited to hear about your favorites, and I'll be listening to think about what kind of Michigan books could really be right for you as you embark on your grand Wind in the Willows-like adventure. Are you ready? Let's do this.

NADIA: I'm ready.

ANNE: Okay. You know how this works. You're going to tell me three books you love, one book you don't, and what you've been reading lately. And we will be thinking about location-appropriate stories that you may enjoy reading next. Nadia, how did you choose these?

[00:14:09] NADIA: So I was, like many guests, liberated by the phrasing of the question. You know, not the three books I love the most. So in some ways, these books are representative of broader categories I love. There's some gentle, wholesome fiction with a satisfying ending, a nonfiction pick, and a bit of a wildcard. But also, truth be told, I've appointed myself as publicist for these three reads, and I just hope that they can find their way into the new reader's hands.

ANNE: Ooh.

NADIA: That's how I chose them.

ANNE: I love that phrasing. I can't wait to hear What is the first book you love?

NADIA: So the first book I love is Birnam Wood by Eleanor Catton.

ANNE: Oh, a New Zealand book. Okay. I promised I would tell you that our team member, Holly, discovered this book due to Unity Books Auckland. And we are betting you know that spot.

NADIA: Oh, my gosh. I really do. It's the most glorious, independent bookstore. They have a shelf in Auckland and in Wellington. When I was practicing as a lawyer, Unity Books was a kind of ten-minute walk through the central business district. So a very popular lunch destination for lawyers, I will say.

[00:15:22] ANNE: I love it. Now tell me about your experience with this book.

NADIA: Eleanor Catton came onto my radar when her second novel, The Luminaries, won the Man Booker Prize. So although Canadian born, she was raised in New Zealand. And New Zealand has only had one other Man Booker winner. So the win was everywhere. I had jumped on that bandwagon, had a great time, and was eager to see what her next offering would be ten years later.

I had added pressure to read when it was announced that she would be attending Waituhi O Tāmaki, the Auckland Writers Festival. So these are the factors that got me to the first page. And then once I was there, there was no going back.

Now, this book is a tragedy. It has a grim outlook and steadily marches towards what the reader fears will be a horrifying conclusion. So in that respect, it's a real outlier in my usual reading diet. I've heard you talk about this before, how sometimes the books we end up loving are the ones that really take us by surprise. And this was very much the case for me here.

[00:16:27] So, you know, notwithstanding its kind of tone, I had to choose as a favorite for how it held me captive. It just sort of ate me up. I was thinking of how to describe it. Maybe I'd say, you know, I fell into a sort of penseive and I couldn't pull myself away, away at will. And I haven't had that experience in a long time. I'd say probably since I was a child. I want to say very little about the plot so as not to ruin it.

What I will say is that apart from the accelerating pace, the characterization is absolutely exquisite. I was calling up my mum saying, "Ma, so-and-so, have you seen so-and-so in the book? I knew these people. And those two factors, I guess probably, the pace and the characterization. And she's so clever. I'm at risk of gushing.

The other thing I will say is that for those who've already read or will read it, my favorite aspect of the book is the way in which Lady Darvish's actions spotlight the strength of understanding that long-term partners develop over a shared life. And I guess it's the kind of glimmer of hopefulness in the book. I'm not sure that's the right way to phrase it, but that was my favorite aspect.

[00:17:49] ANNE: I just recently read this one myself, and I was just... I was going to say trying to talk into, but that's not quite accurate. But I was just telling my husband Will... Some of you tell me like I read like, Well, I want to know what Will is reading. I think Will would love this book without going into too much detail. Oh, my gosh. But Nadia, we could have a really wonderful conversation about the details and especially about the ending off the air, not in front of people who haven't read it yet.

NADIA: No.

ANNE: But the way it combines environmental rights and privacy concerns and nature and the guerilla gardening group, ah. There's so much that's up his alley. And I'm really glad that a few trusted readers talked me into making space for it. Because it looks kind of big. It's hefty page count-wise, but I'm glad I spent the time with it.

NADIA: Me too, Anne. I agree. I mean, The Luminaries as well was a real tome, but for me, the pages just flew by.

ANNE: Now you're a New Zealander, but I'm reading it like an outsider. But I'd love to hear a little bit about your perspective as someone who knows a lot better what Eleanor Catton is talking about than I do. Like how you experienced it.

[00:18:55] NADIA: I mean, it's so interesting. She spoke at the Writers Festival about writing from a distance. She wrote us in the UK and having maybe that added perspective perhaps inform... It helped her writing process. I won't speak more to that. But I thought it was absolutely on point.

The location is fictional, but I could see it all. And the characters in the... you mentioned the guerrilla gardening scene. A number of friends went to university in the South Island and I could just... it was as if she'd been there. I also think she did a really great job at capturing some of the political characters and people in the media in New Zealand. You know, she's not always... She's got quite a harsh, critical eye. But I thought it was really accurate.

ANNE: That's so interesting. I'm glad to hear about that from your perspective. Nadia, what is the second book you love?

[00:19:56] NADIA: The second book I love is Humankind by Rutger Bregman. This reading experience was very much one where I found the right book at the right time. Or the book found me. I was trying to think about how I came upon this book, and I am fairly confident I just picked it up in a bookshop. The title is great. It was also hard to ignore the endorsements from Yuval Noah Harari, Matt Haig, and Stephen Fry.

So Bregman is a Dutch historian and writer. This is nonfiction. And he makes two big claims in this book. First, that contrary to prevailing messaging, human beings are decent by nature rather than innately selfish. I was a philosophy major in my arts degree and had studied the life and state of nature as nasty, brutish and short. So this book is a real subversion of that prevailing narrative.

[00:20:56] So his first claim is that human beings are decent by nature. And second, that to believe this, to assume that people are good is transformative in a sort of self-fulfilling prophecy sense. So I think this is probably welcome news at any time, but it was particularly welcome when I first picked up the book. So I read it at the end of my first year of judges clocking in Auckland High Court.

So the Auckland High Court is a court that hears civil and criminal matters on appeal from district courts but also at first instance. So trials for serious crime start in the High Court. It should go without saying that even in respect of civil litigants, no one is showing up to the High Court because things are going well for them. And this book really helped me balance out the skewed picture I was seeing on my desk every day at work. And I guess call on the Pollyanna within me and silence some of the Eeyore. So that is my second favorite.

ANNE: Well, I'm so glad this book found you when it did.

[00:22:06] NADIA: You and me both, Anne.

ANNE: Nadia, what is the third book you love?

NADIA: The third book I love is Kitchens of the Great Midwest by J. Ryan Stradal. I hope I'm pronouncing his sir name correctly.

ANNE: You are.

NADIA: Thank you. This book came into my life because of this podcast and I loved it. At a high level, the coming-of-age story of Eva Thorvald. But the way it's told is through a series of shifting perspectives or somehow related to Eva. And sometimes very remotely.

So each chapter, more so than normal, is a self-contained short story to me. At least that's how I read it. Again, I thought the characterization was on point, the right mix of flawed and redemptive. And I was so invested sometimes too much so. I'd get to the end of a chapter and we'd shift perspective. And I was a little bit grumpy with Stradal.

[00:23:10] But I will say to his credit, I felt like I got enough closure by the end. Again, I won't spoil it, but I was apprehensive about whether he was going to stick the landing with the ending. For me, it was the right mix of happy and realistic. This is one I listen to on audio. I thought the narration by Caitlin Thorburn was great. I find some American accents very calming. I really enjoyed listening to the audio.

ANNE: Oh, I'm glad to hear it. Now this book is set in the Midwest, which I know is something you've been thinking a lot about. Do you want to say more about what that means for you right now?

NADIA: Yes. I was racking my brain and thinking, have I been reading books, set here and just... it hasn't been on my radar because I hadn't been thinking of even going there until very recently. And I realized I have also read Beach Read by Emily Henry, which is set in a fictional place on the shores of Lake Michigan. Also, as soon as I finish this one, Kitchens of the Great Midwest, I also listened to The Lager Queen of Minnesota and really enjoyed that as well.

Not that I'm necessarily looking for readalikes, but I really enjoyed these books. And I think, obviously, it's a bit like you asking me about Birnam Wood. I'll have to find out when I go. But I felt like they gave me a bit of an insight into the place. So I would love some more of that as I approach my journey.

[00:24:37] ANNE: I can't wait to hear what you find out, Nadia. Now, tell me about a book that was not right for you.

NADIA: So the book that wasn't right for me was One Day by David Nicholls, which I know has been a favorite on this show before. I probably only have myself to blame for this unsatisfying reading experience because I had seen the movie which had disappointed me.

ANNE: Wait, there's the movie?

NADIA: There's a movie-

ANNE: I didn't know this.

NADIA: ...with Anne Hathaway, no less.

ANNE: Really.

NADIA: And I had thought, you know, maybe as is sometimes the case, the movie had gone off on its own frolic and I would enjoy the book. And unfortunately not so. So I got about 80% through this book, and then I had to stop. So what had pulled me through 80% was partly curiosity about the plot, but I also really enjoyed the writing. What I mean by that is I guess I was partly... it felt refreshing to me. I really liked Nicholls' use of metaphor. I didn't think it was clunky at all and really, I guess, in the way that a great metaphor does, just really captures the essence of what he's trying to convey.

[00:25:51] But the nail in the coffin at 80% arrives and we reach this point where the male protagonist, Dexter, does something which I think surely is going to lead Emma, the female protagonist, to realize that she deserves so much better than him.

ANNE: There was a nail in the coffin at 80% that made you think, "No, no, I'm not okay with that."

NADIA: Exactly. Without spoilers, I think... look, I found this to be a kind of miserable story of people behaving badly and failing spectacularly to learn from their mistakes. I don't need all my characters to be shining role models I will say.

ANNE: No, you loved Birnam Wood.

NADIA: Exactly. But that is what I'm mostly interested in. Gretchen Rubin has this phrase that we should strive to both accept ourselves and expect more from ourselves. And I think growing up, it was maybe more important for my characters to help me accept myself. But at the moment, and wanting to lean into expecting more from myself, and I want the characters to help me with that. So, unfortunately, this was not a hit for me.

[00:26:59] ANNE: Ooh. I really like that self-diagnosis, though. We can do a lot with that. Okay, Nadia, thank you for sharing that with us. Now, tell us what you've been reading lately.

NADIA: Okay, so I have just finished on Audiobook Say The Right Thing by Kenji Yoshino and David Glasgow, which is a kind of practical toolkit for having conversations about identity, diversity, and justice. And I was so impressed by the treatment of it. I listened on audio. I'm now trying to find a hard copy of the book because I think it's something I'm going to want to reread.

Also other standouts from her recent reading past, Darius the Great Deserves Better by Adib Khorram. I also came across this on your podcast. I had loved Darius the Great Is Not Okay and I loved listening to the sequel. It really held up for me.

Then I've also recently enjoyed The Anthropocene Reviewed by John Green. So I haven't always enjoyed John Green's fiction, but this book I was...Yeah. Again, I'm probably being cheeky sneaking in a favorite as something I've been reading lately. But I have been reading it lately. And I've just been talking about this book so much to my partner that we ended up listening to chapters together over our date nights. But yeah, The Anthropocene Reviewed, Darius the Great Deserves Better and Say The Right Thing.

[00:28:21] ANNE: Nadia, we've talked about this a little, but what would you say you're looking for in your reading life right now?

NADIA: I'd love to find some books that give a sense of the place I'm going. I would also just love to find some reads that follow a character going on a big adventure. I'm sure that whatever you recommend, I'm going to be able to kind of hold for myself to save for the very long plane trip.

ANNE: Oh. How long is very long?

NADIA: So we're doing it in two stages, but the first stage is 17 hours.

ANNE: Oh, wow.

NADIA: Yeah, it's a trip.

ANNE: Okay. So you need some good audiobooks for those long flights.

NADIA: I would love some good audiobooks.

ANNE: All right, let's see what we can do. Nadia, you loved Birnam Wood by Eleanor Catton, a New Zealand book, Humankind by Rutger Bregman, that nonfiction that helps you think about your life, that actually - what? Calls to your about self?

NADIA: Exactly.

[00:29:19] ANNE: And Kitchens of the Great Midwest by J. Ryan Stradal. And you said that you're not necessarily looking for readalikes, but you're thinking along the lines of J. Ryan Stradal for books to accompany you on your Michigan Grand adventure.

Not for you, One Day by David Nicholls. And lately you've read a slew of books that you've really enjoyed across a variety of genres. I want to focus on books that do have some adventurous notes to them, but mostly I'm thinking Michigan, Michigan, Michigan. Is that good?

NADIA: Sounds good to me.

ANNE: Can we do this?

NADIA: Yes. That sounds great.

ANNE: And I have a great audiobook rec for you, but I'm saving it. We're going to end with that. First, I love the idea of Firekeeper's Daughter by Angeline Boulley for you. Is this one you know?

NADIA: No.

ANNE: This is a book that I think combines introspection and really serious philosophical reflections on identity and community with just a really thrilling crime plot. This is a YA debut from a Michigan writer. It does have that like a big action crime plot that anchors the story, there's a fake relationship, but also that really thoughtful exploration of identity and belonging. And it all happens in a small community on Michigan's Upper Peninsula, not far from where you will be. Well, not super close to Ann Arbor, but you're going to start in northern Michigan, spending some time there, and that'll be closer to where this book is set.

[00:30:43] So what happens is we meet this teenager named Daunis at the beginning of the book. She's an 18-year-old hockey star who is dreaming of getting out of there and making a fresh start in college, in a bigger community with new people. But then she witnesses a murder, and in the aftermath, she's persuaded to go undercover to nail the dealers whose deadly new drugs are just ravaging her Anishinaabe community.

This book is set in the Native American community. So she is out to get justice for her best friend. But in the process, she also has these other things going on. She's grappling with burgeoning feelings for this handsome hockey player she has a crush on. She's navigating tense and complex relationships within her own family. There's a lot going on. I think it will really hold your attention if you're, say, on a plane for a million years or if you're training for that marathon because it's also so good on audio.

You know, I didn't even realize this. There was a different book I had in mind when I said I was going to save it but this audiobook is so good. It's narrated by Native American narrator Isabella Star LaBlanc. And it's so good. First of all, she really makes you feel like the narrative tension. She has you listening and just like putting in... washing another few dishes you can find out what happens next.

[00:31:56] But also I trust her to pronounce the new to me Ojibwe phrases and describing the practices of that community that I wouldn't necessarily know how to say when I was reading on the page. So I loved it for that reason. I knew everything was pronounced correctly. And that really helped me better absorb the strong sense of place in this story.

Boulley does have a new release that just came out in the U.S. this summer. It's called Warrior Girl Unearthed. So if you like Firekeeper's Daughter, there's more to continue. It's not a sequel to Firekeeper's Daughter, but it is set in the same universe as that first book. How does that sound to you?

NADIA: Anne, I'm really excited to discover this book. Something I didn't mention, but which is a happy coincidence is that I also love books which have even a minor sporting element. In your podcast, you mentioned... I do like YA. In large part thanks to your podcast to kind of expand my genres. I was just laughing because I trust you. I feel that I'm in good hands but this book does have a Michigan murder in it.

[00:32:58] ANNE: Oh my gosh, it totally does. You can enjoy it, but don't give it to your mom.

NADIA: No. This sounds like The Fire Keeper's Daughter. I'm looking forward to it.

ANNE: That's so true. So this one's for you, not for your mother. Okay, I have one that might be okay for your mom. You know, you mentioned that you had kind of a wild card in your favorites. You had an offbeat pick. This is my offbeat pick for you. Are you ready?

NADIA: I'm ready.

ANNE: Okay. This is a coffee table kind of book. It's illustrated. It's funny. It's by Taylor Kay Phillips, and it's called A Guide to Midwestern Conversation. The seed of this book was the McSweeney's, the internet website series of the same name. And I have to tell you that many people found this book through J. Ryan Stradal. And I like that connection for you.

Now, he didn't help write it or anything, but he knows Taylor Kay Phillips, they did an event together. He has heartily endorsed that yes, the Midwestern culture and conventions you see in his books very much with Taylor Kay Phillips is talking about. I mean, this is just something to have a good time with. You're not going to listen to this while you're running. I doubt there's an audiobook. But it's warm and funny, there's cheeky humor, it's self-deprecating.

[00:34:15] And Taylor K Phillips assures her reader that she's totally having a good time talking about Midwestern culture, that she is laughing with the Midwesterner. She's not laughing at them. Her affection for her subject is obvious. The cover has a picture of a casserole dish that I'm pretty sure my mom had like three of them when I was growing up. I'm in Kentucky, so I can literally see Indiana from almost my kitchen. But like, if I walk to the corner, I can see Indiana. I'm super close, but not technically Midwest.

So Philip starts by defining what the Midwest is in her introduction. And then she says, like, This is my guide to helping you understand how to translate common Midwestern phrases like "Mm, I wasn't too fond of that" means "I hate it with the passion of a million blazing suns". She says that whether you're looking to become a Midwesterner yourself, which you're kind of doing in three weeks here, Nadia, whether you're trying to communicate better with people who are Midwesterners, whether you're getting ready for a trip or, whether you just want to have some fun experiencing this part of the world and the country, that she wants this book to feel like a warm hug and a firm handshake with eye contact because Midwesterners really value that kind of thing. How does that sound?

[00:35:29] NADIA: Anne, this sounds like required reading.

ANNE: I think J. Ryan might say it is. And we know that you really loved his book.

NADIA: Yeah, it makes me think of I love Darius in Darius the Great talking about the process of tar roofing. I just think, you know, these things are not necessarily I could really put my foot in it or, you know, I look forward to getting some cultural insights.

ANNE: Lighthearted, whimsical cultural insight. And finally, we have the audiobook that I think might be a really great fit. This is Tom Lake by Ann Patchett, and it's brand new. It's coming out on August 1st. The audiobook, though, is narrated by Meryl Streep. It's 11 hours and 22 minutes. I've only listened to a little preview. I haven't listened to the whole thing yet, but I've listened to Meryl Streep read me books before, like Nora Ephron's Heartburn, and I loved it so much. So I have high hopes for this enough to say, download this for your flight. This could be great.

[00:36:32] This is a family drama and the bulk of it takes... I mean, it almost entirely takes place in Michigan, but the bulk of the present-day action takes place in a northern Michigan family-owned a cherry orchard. It's set in the early months of the pandemic. So the family is left to harvest their own cherries. They can't bring people in to help.

So this features a mother named Laura, she's nearing 60 and her three adult daughters have come home to help with the cherry harvest. And long ago, Laura, when she worked as an actress for a time had a romantic relationship with a man who went on to become a huge household name movie star. And Laura's daughters have long romanticized their mother's once-upon-a-time romance with this megastar actor.

And now that they're older, they have different kinds of questions than they had back when they were little and first found out that this was their thing when their father just made a comment, when they were all watching a movie, when they like, Oh, you know, your mother used to date him? And they went, "What?" But it lands on you differently when you're 25 than when you're eight.

[00:37:32] So they're all together again. They have this time nested together at home that they weren't expecting to have ever again. But all the daughters have returned home or nearby because of the pandemic. And they say, Mommy got to tell us the whole story. So she begins from the beginning with the time she left her home in the Northeast because she was hired to do summer stock theater at a place called Tom Lake in Michigan. So she went and she became immersed in this community. And I loved reading about the theater aspects. I don't know how those will land on you.

But what I really loved about this story, which is very reflective, is off from Laura's point of view, is she's constantly deciding, Do I tell my daughters that? Do I tell my daughters this? How much of this story do I tell my daughters and what do I withhold? So over three weeks harvesting cherries in Michigan, I think in August, when you will be in Michigan, she's telling them what happened.

And I have to tell you, Nadia, you said that Kitchens of the Great Midwest had an ending that was the right mix of happy and realistic. I'm still not sure how I feel about this ending. I'm going to have to reread it with Meryl reading it to me. The story itself is gorgeous, but the ending would be wonderful to talk about with a friend or a book club. So I hope you have someone else that you like to talk books with who reads this too. But when you were talking about kitchens, what you said about the ending completely reminded me of the ending of this book. How does that sound? Could you spend 11 hours and 22 minutes with Tom Lake?

[00:39:01] NADIA: Oh my gosh, Anne, that only leaves 5 hours left and I'll be in Houston. I can't wait. I really enjoyed Bel Canto. That's the only other Ann Patchett that I've read. I've been a bit hesitant to try out other things. But no, this sounds amazing. As you say, I'll be in great hands with Meryl Streep. I love books that give an insight into another kind of universe. So I think the theater aspects, if I've interpreted what you've said correctly, it sounds like that might offer that. I have a great relationship with my mom and I love mother-daughter relationships portrayed in books, ones that are good and not so good. So I am looking forward to this.

ANNE: Well, maybe this is a Michigan book you could give your mom. Nobody gets murdered.

NADIA: In the cherry orchard. I've heard about cherries in Michigan. And so it's all there.

[00:40:01] ANNE: Oh, some of the scenes are so great about the cherry orchard and how they're so close to the lake and every once in a while... there's a scene where they just walk a little bit outside the border of the trees and they can see the lake is right there. I'm really excited for you to read this. Nadia, can I give you a few quick hits as well?

NADIA: Oh, please. Please do.

ANNE: Okay. Because these books, the two novels are set primarily in northern Michigan and then a guide to Midwestern conversation, we're going to blanket the whole state with that. But I wanted to give you some books in different parts of the state, a little closer to where you are.

So you mentioned Beach Read by Emily Henry, which is set in that unnamed town on the lake. What the Fireflies Knew, a coming-of-age novel by Kyle Harris is set in Lansing. Station Eleven which I wouldn't give your mother. The pandemic novel by Emily St. John Mandel takes place all over the state.

Song of Solomon by Toni Morrison is set in an unnamed city in Michigan that is widely believed to be Detroit. Finally, Father of the Rain by Lily King is a story of a deeply dysfunctional Boston area family. But there is an interlude that takes place at the University of Michigan in Ann Arbor. So it's not the majority of the book by any means.

[00:41:14] This book is interesting. It's told in three sequential sections. We hear from this young girl in this dysfunctional family. Her father's alcoholic and charming, and she cannot escape his orbit. So we meet her at age 11 in Boston, at age 29 at the university in Ann Arbor, and finally in her 40s. And that 29-year-old interlude does take place largely at the university. It features prominently there. So of course, I had to tell you about that book, Nadia.

NADIA: Nadia Yes. I'm grateful. I'm writing them all down.

ANNE: We've talked a lot about endings. There's a lot of hard stuff in this book as she's attempting to cope and manage her charming, alcoholic father. But I found the resolution of this book to be so satisfying.

NADIA: Okay. That is good to hear.

ANNE: All right, Nadia, we covered the big state today. So the books we really focused on were Firekeeper's Daughter by Angeline Boulley, A Guide to Midwestern Conversation by Taylor Kay Phillips, and Tom Lake by Ann Patchett especially is narrated by Meryl Streep. Those books or really we'll open it up to the other ones I mentioned, what do you think you'll read next?

[00:42:27] NADIA: I think what I'm going to do is I'm going to try and read... I'm cheating here. I'm going to try to read the first two before I go. I'm definitely saving the audiobook for the plane. I think both The Firekeeper's Daughter and A Guide to Midwestern Conversation would be great kind of... It seem like... Oh, all of the above. Look, it'll partly be determined by what I can get hold of. They all sound good. I'm paralyzed by the choice.

ANNE: And if you can't get a hold of any, you're coming to Michigan real soon.

NADIA: I am.

ANNE: We will have them here for you. We. We the collective United States. Nadia, I wish you well on your grand adventure.

NADIA: Thank you so much, Anne.

ANNE: And I'm so excited for you. Please check in and let us know how it's going.

NADIA: Thank you so much. I feel like I've been appropriately armed with reading material. And you know, what more could I possibly need?

ANNE: Exactly.

NADIA: Winter boots probably.

ANNE: So true. Nadia, thanks so much. It was a pleasure talking books with you today.

NADIA: Thank you, Anne.

[00:43:38] ANNE: Hey readers, I hope you enjoyed my discussion with Nadia, and I'd love to hear what you think she should read next. Find the full list of titles we talked about today at whatshouldireadnextpodcast.com. Make sure you're following along in Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Overcast, wherever you get your podcasts.

And join us on Instagram for more book talk. Our shows page is @whatshouldireadnext and I'm there @annebogel. Make sure you're on our email list to get updates on the show and bookish links that have caught my eye. Sign up at whatshouldireadnextpodcast.com/newsletter.

Thanks to the people who make this show happen. What Should I Read Next? is created each week by Will Bogel, Holly Wielkoszewski, and Studio D Podcast Production. Readers, that's it for this episode. Thanks so much for listening. And as Rainer Maria Rilke said, "Ah, how good it is to be among people who are reading." Happy reading, everyone.