Daniel Evola [00:00:00] I have a list now that is about 248 of read books, and then I'd say 20 or so that I'm still maybe working on or maybe abandoning.

Anne Bogel [00:00:21] Hey readers, I'm Anne Bogel and this is What Should I Read Next?. Welcome to the show that's dedicated to answering the question that plagues every reader, what should I read next? We don't get bossy on the show. What we will do here is give you the information you need to choose your next read. Every week we'll talk all things books and reading and do a little literary matchmaking with one guest.

I'm excited about today's guest, Daniel Evola. You will hear more about him in a moment. But I'll tell you when we got his submission here at What Should I Read Next HQ, we liked how some of his favorites were new to the show. As in though they're older titles that have been out a while, we hadn't talked about them here before. And I was excited about the direction that conversation could go.

Something else we do at What Should I Read Next? HQ is talk over how to help more readers find our show and we peruse your Instagram comments and Apple Podcasts reviews. Those social media posts and comments do help us grow our audience, which is a good thing for a podcast.

This recent review from Mrs. Sever caught our eye. She called it Tuesday Mornings, and she said, "I wake up every Tuesday checking my podcast lineup for the day searching for What Should I Read Next?. The show is like seating with a couple of friends talking about books and much more. The show is relaxing, jovial, and great entertainment to start the day. My reading and the quality of my reading has exploded." Thank you, Mrs. Sever, for that five-star review.

Those short reviews go a long way when it comes to spreading the word that book lovers in the know should know about our show. And your reviews also help keep those algorithms for the major podcast platforms happy. And look, we may not love that about podcasting, but it's still important.

If you could take 2 minutes to leave a short and sweet review on Apple Podcasts, the kind of thing you tell your friend by text or over coffee, just short casual, we would be so grateful. It does not cost you a dime and it truly makes a difference. On behalf of myself and my team, thank you so much, and happy listening.

Now for today's conversation, I am talking to Daniel Evola, who is coming to us from his local Chicago library. Daniel was an early reader who often borrowed from his older brother's assigned reading list, and fortunately, he was not dissuaded by these early efforts with the classics. His love of reading grew as he did. Daniel knows there are plenty of classics and titles he's previously identified as must-read that he still would like to check off his list someday or at least he's pretty sure he would. You will hear about that in a minute.

But lately he's been much more interested in discovering new-to-him voices that leave him so excited he cannot stop talking about their books. Recent discoveries like Katie Kitamura, Sandra Cisneros, Leïla Slimani. We're also touching today on his longtime love of one genre that he fell in love with early and has remained close to his heart as a proud Chicagoan ever since. And that is true crime.

I'm excited to chat with Daniel about how his reading tastes evolved and what that means for right now. I also will put some new-to-him titles in his hands so he can continue his journey of discovery and excitement. Let's get to it.

Daniel, welcome to the show.

Daniel Evola [00:03:33] Thank you. Hi Anne.

Anne Bogel [00:03:35] Oh, I'm excited to talk today. Daniel, we were so intrigued by your submission. I'm excited to talk about your books that I think are off the beaten path. Is that fair to say?

Daniel Evola [00:03:44] Yeah. I try to have some breadth, so some maybe newer or some maybe more familiar.

Anne Bogel [00:03:50] Happy to hear it. We're going to get all into that today. And as someone who used to live in Chicago land and has fond memories, I'm happy to talk to a Chicagoan. So, Daniel, tell our listeners a little bit about yourself.

Daniel Evola [00:04:02] I am a former and possibly future reading, writing, and social studies teacher. I've worked for the past six years with Chicago Public Schools. I just kind of enjoy seeing people read something new and read something interesting that kind of sparks something in them. And I really enjoy creative writing and the creative writing process, letting kids kind of like explore whatever they want and letting them build these worlds and characters. It's been really fun to do that and see that with my students.

Anne Bogel [00:04:44] Oh, that sounds so cool. It's always good to hear teachers talk about how they're excited to see passion being ignited and stoked in the students that they are teaching. Daniel, you mentioned your kids' passion. What are the things that you get really excited about?

Daniel Evola [00:04:59] I enjoy those same things: reading, writing, and history. But when I'm not being so studious, I do enjoy going out. Chicago's got so much to offer, whether it's professional sports or the parks. We have so many big, beautiful parks, and you can get to all of them from trains or buses or walking or riding your bike. So it's really accessible. There's a lot of things to do.

Anne Bogel [00:05:28] All right. You got to tell our Chicago area listeners and those who visited your wonderful city a favorite park.

Daniel Evola [00:05:33] Oh, you put me on the spot.

Anne Bogel [00:05:36] A favorite park? Not your most ever favorite park.

Daniel Evola [00:05:40] Okay, so I'll have to go with Lincoln Park because it's the biggest and the longest that goes from downtown, the north edges of downtown, all the way north almost to Evanston. And it kind of segues into that next point. We have a beach in the middle of the country. We have a huge long stretch of Lake Michigan coastline.

And the Great Lakes are so great that you almost feel like you're at a real beach. But I don't like going to the beach beach. I don't like going to the sandy beach. I like going... I call them the rocks. It's just kind of a concrete where the city meets the water or where the water was stopped by the city, rather. And you can jump off and do some flips. You're not supposed to dive because there are rocks at the bottom there, but you could kind of get away with it. But jumping in and running along the trail and riding your bike along the trail and jumping in when you get too hot and coming back out, just laying there. There's less bugs, there's less people. You can bring a book in. It's just really a great time.

Anne Bogel [00:06:53] Dan, I love where I live, but I'm experiencing some major lake envy right now.

Daniel Evola [00:06:58] As great as Chicago is, you know, I've lived here my whole life, so getting out is just as important as being a tourist in your own city. Something that I've discovered that I really enjoy is going to different places around the world and around the country. Some of my highlights, I'd say, were Tel Aviv, Israel. It was amazing. It was really a 24-hour city. It was a party nonstop.

And then you contrast that with Jerusalem, where I stayed in the old city for four days or so, and it's a short bus ride away from Tel Aviv and it's a completely different world. It's like you're stepping back in time. You have the different quarters of the city and there are different personalities and cultures, and each of those just butted up against one another and melding. And it's really an incredible place. But I would say if you're going to Israel, spend some extra time in Tel Aviv because it is a party and it is really a great time.

Anne Bogel [00:08:04] That's fascinating to hear. I didn't know that about you.

Daniel Evola [00:08:07] So Israel was great. And then I'd also say Portugal, the southern coast of Portugal, the Algarve was one of the most beautiful places I've ever been.

Anne Bogel [00:08:17] Oh, I'd love to go to Portugal.

Daniel Evola [00:08:19] And I went to Madeira Island, which was called the Garden Island. That was a whole nother world as well, but it was just kind of too small for me. So coming back to Continental Europe and going to the Algarve to end nice summer vacation was really incredible. Some of the pictures I still use from five years ago because I loved it so much.

Anne Bogel [00:08:42] Oh, that's very cool. Dan, do you think about armchair travel when you're choosing what to read next? Is locale something you keep an eye out for when you're choosing your books?

Daniel Evola [00:08:50] Yeah, absolutely.

Anne Bogel [00:08:52] Okay.

Daniel Evola [00:08:52] Sometimes I'll run into a place or I'll come across an article about someone or something in a specific place, and I'll have to kind of dive into it. But I will say there... it's hidden myths.

Anne Bogel [00:09:08] So location is a factor, but not the only factor.

Daniel Evola [00:09:10] Yes.

Anne Bogel [00:09:12] That makes sense to me. Dan, tell me more about your reading life. When did you fall in love with reading?

Daniel Evola [00:09:18] I've always been a big reader. Started off with the typical children's books, I suppose, you know. In middle school, I'd say, is when the Harry Potter craze took off, and I was definitely a part of that. I wasn't standing in line and dressing up to go to movies and get the latest book, but I would preorder the books, and then as soon as they come out, I would read them all night until the dawn and then I would fall asleep at eight or nine in the morning, wake back up and start reading it again. So I've definitely always been a big reader.

But then I'd say my second year of college, I took a semester off. I moved back to Chicago after spending some time at Indiana University, and I started working again and I was missing something. So I talked with some friends and I have a friend who completed his studies at IU and he introduced me to Soren Kierkegaard and Jean-Paul Sartre. Those are heavy hitters.

So I kind of started reading that and I thought to myself, Oh, maybe I can do this college thing. Maybe it's not as complicated or as complicated as I'm making it. I guess my friend Ken kind of started me reading the way I do now. If I could sum up how I read nowadays, it's typically one nonfiction and one fiction book at the same time. So I kind of will alternate those.

Anne Bogel [00:11:06] All right, very cool. The thing I really want to hear about is the list of 200-plus books.

Daniel Evola [00:11:12] I don't exactly know when this started. It was sometime around the time my friend Ken gave me those two books. Do you remember a website called StumbleUpon?

Anne Bogel [00:11:23] Oh, my gosh, yes. That is a throwback.

Daniel Evola [00:11:26] Yeah. You just click the button and it would take you to a random web page. Well, I had put in books and other things like that as my interests, and I came across a list of, I think, 200 books that was called The 200 Books Every Man Should Read Before He Dies. Something like that. You know, one of these listicles that you click on and then you scroll through.

I had the idea that, okay, I'll take this as an assignment. So I wrote down the 200 books and over the years I compiled a lot of them. And I have a list now that is about 248 of read books, and then I'd say 20 or so that I'm still maybe working on or maybe abandoning.

Anne Bogel [00:12:23] Is that part of our mission today?

Daniel Evola [00:12:26] Yeah, I mean, some insight or just some like, I don't know, maybe permission to say, you don't have to read that, would be kind of nice to hear.

Anne Bogel [00:12:35] All right, Dan, then maybe this will be more meaningful later in the episode, but you don't have to read that.

Daniel Evola [00:12:41] Thank you. Okay. So I check some of these off the list.

Anne Bogel [00:12:46] There are definitely situations I have in my life where I feel like present Anne has to cash the checks that past Anne wrote. Like, there's no way out. But this reading list, you are not in that kind of situation. You are the boss of your present-day reading life.

Now, if you create a curriculum for your students and said, We're going to read all these books together, then I'd say, Dan, you got to read these books. Like you do actually have to cash those checks. But that's not the situation. This is for you and your reading life for your personal reasons. And maybe we'll interrogate those a little bit and clarify those today, too, so that'll help you decide which to cut. But yeah, you don't need to read those books.

Daniel Evola [00:13:25] And I haven't even added... I don't think I have added most of the books that we have read for class. So a lot of YA or some of those chapter books, Percy Jackson and stuff, I don't know if they've read the list. They may have. Mostly not. I don't have Hop on Pop on the list.

Anne Bogel [00:13:46] That would get to be a really long list really. Really. So I can appreciate that. All right, Dan, so I think something that we want to do, especially based on our chatting before we hit record, friends, is help you get a better sense of what it is you're looking for, what it is you love. You have these books, you know you love, but I think—tell me if I'm recapturing this correctly—that you're not necessarily always sure why you love the books you love. So I hope we can do that today. Does that sound like it would be helpful?

Daniel Evola [00:14:17] Yeah. Sometimes it's hard to quite put my finger on what it is that... I can kind of explain what draws me to them but sometimes I'm surprised by a book. I'm surprised by an author.

Anne Bogel [00:14:30] And surprises are good, but also they can be kind of baffling when something feels out of step with the rest of what we know ourselves to like. Okay, well, I'm excited to do this. How did you choose the books we're going to talk about today?

Daniel Evola [00:14:44] I have a way of organizing my list where if I really liked the book, I bold it. So I went through my list and then I went through my Goodreads list and saw what was the recent five stars. And that's kind of how I chose them. But I also picked ones that just popped into my head that I knew that there was something about them that is making it jump out at me.

Anne Bogel [00:15:09] Okay. So a little bit gut instincts and a little bit data. I like it. Dan, tell me about the first book you love.

Daniel Evola [00:15:16] The first one that I chose was The Master and Margarita by Mikhail Bulgakov. I don't know how I came across this book. It probably was on that first list.

Anne Bogel [00:15:26] I'm laughing because it's always so great to hear how you came across a book you love. But okay, on the first list.

Daniel Evola [00:15:31] Yeah, I've no idea. But it was probably on that first list of 200. I didn't know what to expect. I saw that there was a cat with a gun on the cover, and I started reading it, and right away, it kind of hooked me. You're in... I think it's Gorky Park in Moscow. There's a man sitting on a bench, another man approaches him, some strange person gets run over by a train, and then there's a tall man. Everything kind of goes to hell from there, literally, because the person you meet is the devil.

Anne Bogel [00:16:08] Oh, you beat me to it.

Daniel Evola [00:16:10] So it weaves in all of the controversial things that I enjoy, politics, religion, and it weaves it into a really interesting story that kind of goes forwards and backwards. It takes you to the past, but it also takes you to the present at that time. And when you learn about the author, you see that he was sometimes lauded as a Soviet author and playwright, and then he was also persecuted.

Anne Bogel [00:16:48] Dan, how long ago did you read this?

Daniel Evola [00:16:51] That was probably back in 2015 or so.

Anne Bogel [00:16:57] Okay. So it's a book that stuck with you for a number of years now.

Daniel Evola [00:17:00] Yeah. And on YouTube there is like ten part Russian straight-to-tv series. That is the book. And I think what stuck with me the most is the devil's ball. Like that idea of the devil's ball. He got all these terrible people together and he showed off Margarita as the queen of hell. It was really an evocative scene in the book. And then kind of seeing it in the movie for some reason those images stick with me. The whole motif of that was really something I enjoyed.

Anne Bogel [00:17:40] You mentioned seeing the cover of the book, which is a cat with a gun. Like, I'm thinking that touch of the absurd like the hint that it would be political. Is it fair to say they didn't put you off or that they pulled you in?

Daniel Evola [00:17:54] Definitely pulled me in. So I didn't know anything about the book when I first started it. And then as soon as I got started, I could see the political satire. But just all of the themes, you know. The theme of Pontius Pilot, the theme of political absurdism, of Stalinism at the time was really, really interesting. When they went to the shop and then everybody got everything they wanted, as soon as they walked outside the store, everybody was naked, they didn't have any of those things that they had just bought. There was just so many clever and really, really funny ways of satirizing the climate that Bulgakov was living in, as well as kind of taking that other view of the religious story as well, the Christ story as well. He really centered Pontius Pilate. And that was just a perspective that I wasn't used to that I enjoyed.

Anne Bogel [00:18:56] So bizarre for a reason, dark humor, these are things that work for you?

Daniel Evola [00:18:59] Yes.

Anne Bogel [00:19:00] And unexpected interpretations. Okay. Interesting. Dan, tell me about another book you love.

Daniel Evola [00:19:07] Another book I chose was Oryx and Crake by Margaret Atwood. And really, it's the whole MaddAddam trilogy. This is another one not sure where it came from, not sure exactly how I picked it up, but I loved it right away. It had a lot of those same themes of absurdity. In this case, there is the future instead of the past. And in the future it is all of our worst vices, all of our worst guilty pleasures, all of our worst habits are really defined and amplified.

And then you have, in this case, some younger people. I think it's high school age, college age, and then they grow. And it's being told in the past tense. So it's somebody's remembering things. It was really interesting. And it got me thinking about, I guess, sort of where we're headed or where we could be headed. It's this dystopian future that isn't so far off, but at the same time, it has these other elements of friendship and betrayal, romance, and intellect.

These are intelligent people, they are studying for different things, but they have different personalities. One is a quieter, more techie person, and then you have the main character who is just kind of like a loafer. You know, he's kind of just getting by. He's doing everything right, but he's not really doing anything exceptionally well. And he ends up being the hero. So, I mean, it's kind of like he's failing up, I'd say. And it turns out he's not failing at all. He might be the most sane one of them all. So I really enjoyed kind of the play there between everything around you is going wrong and by kind of not doing anything, you are doing the right thing.

Anne Bogel [00:21:09] That's a very interesting way to describe that book. Dan, what did you choose for your third favorite?

Daniel Evola [00:21:15] My third favorite is a recent one that I picked up in a Little Free Library outside of somebody's house when I was walking my dog.

Anne Bogel [00:21:25] I love it.

Daniel Evola [00:21:25] It is American Gods by Neil Gaiman. This book I didn't know what to expect going into it. It was very, very fun. To me, it reads like a grown-up Percy Jackson with some foul language and some more adult situations. But it still has those elements of mythology. The writing was really good. I could see the artwork in my head. It got me to want to watch the television show. I haven't watched it yet, but I know that there is an American Gods TV show that has a couple of seasons, and I'm looking forward to watching that now that I read this book. Because I really enjoyed it. It was very fun.

Anne Bogel [00:22:11] Dan, I still haven't read this one. I've read a fair amount of Neil Gaiman, but I haven't read this one. I don't know. Like, not every book is for every reader, but if you wanted to sell me on it, what would you say?

Daniel Evola [00:22:21] Well, I would say just that, it's a grown-up Percy Jackson. It's about a man and he is a shadow. So he is a shadowy figure. But Shadow is his name. He is sprung from jail early because of a tragedy. And he meets a mysterious person on the plane ride home. He ditches the plane, and then when he's at a roadside restaurant, the man appears next to him and he offers him a job. So he kind of starts working for this mysterious man, all these different characters come into play.

And it really just draws on different mythologies in America. And there's background where you find out how various customs, cultures, gods came to the United States and then they are living, breathing people. They are real people, these gods. So you kind of see how they all live differently around the country. It's really interesting. It's kind of anticlimactic, not to dissuade you from reading it. I found it a little bit anticlimactic. It wouldn't get five stars for me, but I did really enjoy the style. I thought the writing was excellent. It was just a fun story to read.

Anne Bogel [00:23:32] You had me at grown-up Percy Jackson. That's a great description. Dan, what have you been reading lately?

Daniel Evola [00:23:38] So I'm reading three novels by Naguib Mahfouz, who is the older Egyptian writer. He won the Nobel Prize. This kind of goes to the have-to-read sort of situation. This is somebody who I came across and I read that he was very influential on his quintessential Egyptian writer. So I started reading him and he didn't hook me right away. And so I started reading a nonfiction book to pair with my fiction. And that is Under the Banner of Heaven by Jon Krakauer. So I'm kind of reading those two simultaneously right now.

Anne Bogel [00:24:17] Dan, what are you looking for in your reading life right now?

Daniel Evola [00:24:20] Hmm. I don't want to check off the list. I know that we've talked about lists, and I have had a list, and I still make lists and I will continue to make lists of what I've read. But I don't want to have to read things anymore. I don't want to have to read things just because they're canonical or just because they're on a list of "You should read these before you die".

I found that a lot of the ones that I have waited for, I don't know if I'll ever get into them because I don't think they're drawing me in. And it's been over five years and know it's almost ten years now that I've kept this list and they've been on the list since the beginning. So I don't know if I'll ever get to them. But I do enjoy new authors. I enjoy new perspectives. I like reading and listening to people who are taking me to new places that I haven't been before, new situations, new personalities, new cultures, customs, traditions, places. Those are what I'm looking for.

Anne Bogel [00:25:29] Dan, I think because it factors so largely into your submission, you have to tell me a little about your love of true crime.

Daniel Evola [00:25:36] Yes. I haven't talked about it that much simply because I have fallen away from it. But especially as a child growing up, I was really captured by the idea of crime and organized crime. My father is an immigrant from Sicily. So there's this undertone of the mafia. Plus, I live in Chicago, so we have underground history with Al Capone and all these people that is in movies that's in there.

You know, we have this underground culture in Chicago that you can get caught up in, and there's plenty to read about. And once you start digging and diving into it, you realize that Al Capone is a main character but he probably isn't the most interesting person that there is. The people in their 70s, the people in the 60s, these low-key gangsters are more sophisticated and more interesting.

So I read a lot of crime, true crime stories, particularly around organized crime. And I just got a few books actually about the situation in the 90s and in the 80s with the Vatican Bank and the propaganda doing Masonic Lodge in Italy. There's a Chicago connection there as well with the president of the Vatican Bank being an archbishop from Cicero. He was kind of John Paul II right-hand man. There's a lot of intrigue and suspicion that surrounds that story. So I'll dive into those maybe in the fall when it gets a little bit darker and dreary and cold.

Anne Bogel [00:27:37] That sounds great. Dan, thank you for telling me we are on the hunt for right now. And thank you for that perspective on true crime and what it means to you, what it's meant to you in the past. Am I imagining a wistfulness for the genre that you'd love to find something great in it, or is that not really there? Am I truly hearing that?

Daniel Evola [00:27:56] Well, I'm open to it. It's not like I'm opposed to reading true crime anymore, but I have... Like Under the Banner of Heaven, arguably, is a true crime story. So I'm definitely still open to it, but I'm probably gearing away from the organized crime or at least the Italian-American Mafia-type crime stories.

I'm also a little bit leery of organized crime and these true crime stories because you aren't always sure if you're getting a factual picture. There's a lot of hearsay, there's a lot of speculation. So you end up thinking one way and there is arguments to be made the opposite. So I'm open to reading it, but I wouldn't say that it is something that is a priority. But then again, I am reading a true crime story right now, and I do have like two or three queued up.

Anne Bogel [00:28:59] That's right, you are. Okay. I'm going to note that. Dan, of the books you enjoyed, let's recap, you loved The Master and Margarita by Mikhail Bulgakov, Oryx and Crake by Margaret Atwood, and American Gods by Neil Gaiman. And currently you're reading three novels by Naguib Mahfouz and Under the Banner of Heaven by Jon Krakauer. And you want to figure out what you like and get off that list.

Dan, you said that you didn't feel like you maybe really understood what you liked or why you liked what you liked, but I heard a lot of consistency in your themes. You're drawn to the weird and the unusual. You're drawn to the kinds of stories that I think it never would have occurred to you to write. In fact, I'm wondering if maybe it's your perspective as a writer that draws you towards these weird and thought-provoking works. You want to weigh in there?

Daniel Evola [00:29:54] I could see that. I think thematically there are some consistencies. I do like the weird and the wonderful and the unique, different perspectives. But yeah, I do kind of like a... I like an author who embeds themself in their work. So some of these authors you kind of know their point of view and you know where they stand after you read them. But it's not glaringly obvious. It's underneath. It's in between the lines.

Like with Bulgakov, you know, you see that satireism of Stalinism. With [Welbeck? 00:30:31] you see that disinterest in French politics, even though those are the key factors of the book. Those are underneath. Those are undertones. With Margaret Atwood, she has a lot to say about the future in Oryx and Crake, one way or the other. Same with all of her other novels. I'm thinking of Handmaid's Tale. Right? There's a lot of different themes in there, but they are not expounded on, let's say. They are kind of in the background. And you get a feel for the author through the surroundings, through the context.

Anne Bogel [00:31:11] Now that's up for you to decide and explore further. Like, what does your identity as a writer mean for your reading life? But I just want to float that for you as a possibility. And also something that we've consistently seen is that you appreciate a touch of the absurd. You like when political themes are woven through or make the novel. And you really enjoy satire and dark humor. So we're going to keep all those things in mind as we move forward. I'm hoping to give you some picks that will already be familiar and maybe a pick or two that is off the beaten path because that is a place that you like to go.

I want to start with one that has been everywhere, but I think it could be just right for you. And that is a book by George Saunders, a writing book called A Swim in a Pond in the Rain, in which four Russians give a masterclass on writing, reading, and life. Is this a book you're familiar with or that you've read?

Daniel Evola [00:32:03] No, I am familiar with George Saunders just from The New Yorker podcasts.

Anne Bogel [00:32:10] Which I hear are good but I've never listened to.

Daniel Evola [00:32:12] He has interested me. And I know that he is an MFA professor. So if we want to go back to that theme of writing, I'm sure there's quite a bit to learn from reading him, so that sounds pretty good.

Anne Bogel [00:32:26] Oh, we do. I think you'd like Saunders in general. I think his essay collection Tenth of December has often that touch of the absurd, the unexpected, that what on earth is happening? I mean, very realistic. And also there's often just a hint of the bizarre. And Lincoln in the Bardo is so inventive and strange. You're reading this thinking, one, this is brilliant, and two how do you come up with this stuff, George Saunders?

But I like this book for you. I would encourage you just to pop online to the publisher's website and read his opening words. And what he says is for 20 years he's been teaching a class in the 19th-century Russian short story in translation at Syracuse University. And he talks about winnowing down an applicant pool of 600 and 700 students to six promising young writers and what he's trying to teach them in the class.

And it's really interesting. He says, like, If you're one of the students selected for this class, you can write. But my goal with this class is to help you really hone your voice and learn how to write the things that only you can write and really develop a distinctive style. And as a reader and writer, I think it's really fascinating that the method he's using to do this is look at some very old Russian short stories.

There's four authors he focuses on. Like he says in the subtitle, they are Chekhov, Gogol, Turgenev, and Tolstoy. And you loved Bulgakov for many of the same elements that appear in these stories. So what he says is that he didn't choose the most representative or the best short stories necessarily. He was trying to elevate and highlight the ones that he loved to teach and that students loved to talk about.

So this is his masterclass in book form. It does feel very much like you're sitting in on the college seminar. I will say the audiobook is particularly great because that really does feel like a college seminar. You have a well-known figure like Nick Offerman or Renée Elise Goldsberry read you the Russian short story and then you hear Saunders expound on it in detail.

So he said that this book is his attempt to put what some of his students and Saunders have discovered together over the years and kind of offer you a version of that class. So I think you'll enjoy reading the stories themselves and also reading the commentary. And then knowing you and what you're interested in, I think you might then go back and read the stories again. I think this could be a really interesting and gratifying reading experience for you. But what do you think, Dan? That's what matters here.

Daniel Evola [00:34:55] I'm very intrigued. I like it a lot that he chose different authors because you could kind of jump around and see the different similarities and differences between them. I also have to say I do have a soft spot for European literature, and Russian literature is a whole nother ball game. It's great and expansive and dark, and... it's hard to wrap up into a nice sentence, but it's typically excellent. And reading some of the Masters from that is something that definitely appeals to me.

Anne Bogel [00:35:33] Okay. Dan, I'm going to try to do true crime. So I'm aware that you have read a lot of stuff because you have had an interest for a long time, but you've dropped a couple of mentions that made me want to make sure that this book is on your radar. And it's a 2008... I almost said novel because that reads like one, but it's a 2008 nonfiction account of The Monster of Florence by Douglas J. Preston and Mario Spezi. Is this a book you know?

Daniel Evola [00:35:59] No.

Anne Bogel [00:36:00] Oh, I'm so excited to hear that. So we've talked about Douglas J. Preston on this podcast before. He has co-authored thrillers with Lincoln Child. He's also the author of The Lost City of the Monkey God, which I know has been, I think, a book I recommended on What Should I Read Next?. We will find that in our archives and share that in the show notes.

The backstory here is that Preston was working on a mystery and he moved to Florence to research that book so he could do it there in the country. Also, I don't know if we talked about this, but you have a personal collection with Italy. It's a place that means a lot to you in a place you like to visit. That is definitely rattling around in my mind.

Spezi was an Italian journalist. So what happens is that Preston moved to Italy and kind of fell headlong into the rabbit hole of an ongoing investigation about a serial killer known as the Monster of Florence, who murdered eight couples between 1968 and 1985 at various locations, often called lover's lanes in the press, across Tuscany.

So Preston moved to Florence, and he found out that one of those double homicides occurred right next to the farmhouse he had just moved into with his family in the olive grove. Like right there. So he starts investigating and digs in. And at a certain point, he teams up with Spezi and they become very involved in this story. At a certain point, I think Preston is accused of tampering with evidence. I think Spezi is actually considered as the possible perpetrator by the police for a short period of time. But this crime still has not been solved. But this is their deep dive into the killer himself, the ongoing, I think, failed investigation, and what it all means.

This is a classic in the genre pointed to again and again, is a narrative nonfiction that is impeccably done and that really stands the test of time, which at this point is only 15 years. But I expect people to be reading it for at least another 15 more. How does that sound to you?

Daniel Evola [00:37:59] I think you sold it very well. It seems like an American crime story set in Italy because you don't typically hear about serial killers in other parts of the world. We seem to have a premium on that. So that's something that is intriguing right off the bat.

And then also, I would say it reminds me a little bit of Gomorrah, where you have a journalist who kind of gets wrapped up in the world at the beginning of the war. I remember the author kind of befriending some of these people in the Port of Naples, and even while I might not be super gung ho about the true crime thing, you found a great way to tie it into a lot of my interests with Italy in particular, but also, you know, travel Europe and kind of putting this typical story in a not so typical, much more interesting place. Sounds great.

Anne Bogel [00:39:01] I'm glad to hear it. And I want to finish with a weird one, if you're good with that.

Daniel Evola [00:39:05] Love it.

Anne Bogel [00:39:06] Okay. We have a Red Pill by Hari Kunzru. Have you read this one?

Daniel Evola [00:39:10] I have not.

Anne Bogel [00:39:11] Okay, wonderful. I'm happy to hear it. It came out in 2020, so a lot of books flew under the radar in 2020 for reasons we are well aware of.

Daniel Evola [00:39:19] Mm hmm.

Anne Bogel [00:39:19] This is a book about a writer, Dan. So there is a Brooklyn writer who is stressed out by American politics. We never learn his name, even though he's telling us this story in the first person.

Daniel Evola [00:39:30] I love that.

Anne Bogel [00:39:31] And it's set in roughly the present day, like where real events actually do play into the story because he is so taxed and weary of what is happening in the U.S., he decides to accept a position at a Berlin writer's residency thinking he will getaway to Germany. This will be the escape he desperately needs. But instead, it's like it's stepping off a cliff for him. For starters, just some basics. He's an introvert who needs time to himself, but the rules of the residency mean he has to work in close proximity to other writers.

So this drives him to start binge-watching a cop show as an escape. But that cop show has a very depressing worldview, and it does not do good things for his mental health. He's already inclined after his time in the U.S. and his time in the residency, to have a pernicious worldview. And his paranoia is increasing. And this show just stokes them.

And weirdly, in time, the narrator, the unnamed Brooklyn writer, crosses paths with the creator of this cop show he's been binge-watching who is charming and super racist. And as the narrator, who is losing his grip on reality at this point, tries to figure out more about the man behind the show, it does even worse things for his mental health and his accurate perception of what's happening around him.

And in the meantime, he's well aware that a presidential election in the U.S. is drawing near and he's keeping an eye on that, which is not doing good things for him either. But this is his descent into... Well, I'll tell you that I remember The Critical Review called it things like a nightmarish allegory and a dark tale of fear and injustice. And it's about books and writing and social media and their purpose. And what kind of burden do the creators bear? What kind of burden do the consumers bear? This has been called Kafkaesque.

We have talked about Russia today. There's an interesting side plots that you may decide does or doesn't belong in this story. But because of some historical references that are made in this plot that relate to Stalin's Russia, I think that's going to catch your attention as well. So this is bizarre and weird and dark and unsettling, which those adjectives are going to send some readers running. But how does it sound to you?

Daniel Evola [00:41:44] I'm really impressed. I'm really impressed by all of your choices. This latest one, Red Pill, it sounds again like something right up my alley. We have historical allegories. We have a political context in the background. We have a stressed-out American trying to win it all. It sounds very familiar, sounds very relatable.

And then you go into the absurd. Then you go into like that dark, crazy, wild, weird place where reality and in the imagination or you know, your own head kind of meld together. I love that. I love that place where, like, is this real? Is this not real? Am I doing the right thing? Am I not doing the right thing? Am I involved in this case or am I just a witness to it? You kind of get all of those things. That's really what I enjoy reading. Just kind of like this, I don't know where we're going and I don't know what's going to happen next. And something awful happened next to me and what comes around the corner? So I really, really like it. Sounds great.

Anne Bogel [00:42:57] Well, I'm glad to hear they sound promising. Of course, only you can decide if they're actually right for you. I'd be so curious to hear what you think. Dan, I really wish you well as you reflect about the things we talked about today, where you are in your reading life right now, and what books do and don't belong on that list you've been keeping for a long time. Good luck with that.

Daniel Evola [00:43:17] Well, I have some new ones to add now.

Anne Bogel [00:43:19] Oh, I'm happy to hear it. Dan, we covered a lot of ground today for the three titles we arrived at were A Swim in a Pond in the Rain by George Saunders, The Monster of Florence by Douglas J. Preston and Mario Spezi, and Red Pill by Hari Kunzru. Of those three books, what do you think you'll pick up next?

Daniel Evola [00:43:39] Well, I think I've got to start with the Hari Kunzru. It sounds like something right up my alley for summer. Sounds like something that I could jump into right away and probably finish in a week or so.

Anne Bogel [00:43:52] Well, I'm excited to hear it. Dan, thanks so much for talking books with me today. I really enjoyed this.

Daniel Evola [00:43:57] Thank you, Anne. Thanks for having me on and thanks for giving me these great suggestions.

Anne Bogel [00:44:05] Hey readers, I hope you enjoyed my conversation with Daniel and I'd love to hear what you think he should read next. Leave your recommendations for Daniel and check out our full list of titles we talked about today at whatshouldireadnextpodcast.com. Make sure you're following along in Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Overcast, wherever you get your podcasts.

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Thank you to the people who make the show happen each week. What Should I Read Next? is created by Will Bogel, Holly Wielkoszewski, and Studio D Podcast Productions. Readers, that's it for this episode. Thanks so much for listening. And as Rainer Maria Rilke said, "Ah, how good it is to be among people who are reading." Happy reading, everyone.