Anne Bogel [00:00:00] So it sounds like at a library book sale the price is low enough that it's easy to take a chance and kind of, you know, save it for later in your own collection.

Kelsey Gruber [00:00:09] I also justify it. If it's a library book sale, well, it's going to the library. I'm making a donation to the library. So I can justify it that way too.

Anne Bogel [00:00:26] Hey readers, I'm Anne Bogel and this is What Should I Read Next?. Welcome to the show that's dedicated to answering the question that plagues every reader, what should I read next? We don't get bossy on the show. What we will do here is give you the information you need to choose your next read. Every week we'll talk all things books and reading and do a little literary matchmaking with one guest.

[00:00:56] Readers, summer reading season is just around the corner and we cannot wait to share our 2023 Summer Reading Guide with you. I spent the better part of the year on the guide. The Summer Reading Guide Live Unboxing is our marquee event of the year. We have put months of work into it and I've literally reviewed hundreds of titles to find the books I want to share with you this season.

While we are counting down to the guide's release on May 18th, that's really just the beginning of an awesome reading season around here. This summer, patrons will hear the return of one great book with amazing backlist books for your summer, plus episodes of mini matchmaking and Dear Book Therapist and invites to our live Patreon events.

Now is a great time to join us in Patreon. You'll receive the Summer Reading Guide and invite to the Live Unboxing event and a summer full of bonus episodes that will ensure that whenever and wherever you kick your feet up the summer, you've always got a great read close at hand. Find out more or join us by going to patreon.com/whatshouldireadnext or by clicking the link in the show notes.

Readers, today I'm talking with devoted reader, aspiring paralegal, and confessed book hoarder Kelsey Gruber. Kelsey is joining me from Virginia, where she's eager for my perspective on her overflowing bookshelves. She has hundreds of unread titles she's collected over the years from bookstores, library sales, or as gifts from well-intended friends. Most of these books excited Kelsey when she first got them, but when she sees them on her shelf after a few months or even years, it's like the magic is gone.

Kelsey is ready to make some hard decisions about her unread collection, whether that means letting go of books that just aren't the right fit anymore, or deciding it's time to bump a few of these titles to the top of her To Be Read list. I can't wait to see what treasures we discover together today. Let's get to it.

Kelsey, welcome to the show.

Kelsey Gruber [00:02:38] Thank you, Anne. I'm so excited.

Anne Bogel [00:02:41] I'm so excited to be here today. Do you want to tell our listeners how you emailed us back when we sent the invitation?

Kelsey Gruber [00:02:47] I literally sat at my work computer in shock. Just absolutely still not moving shock for probably 5 minutes. I mean, it's been a dream of mine. So when I moved to Lynchburg, one of my first friends, we connected over your podcast, Anne.

Anne Bogel [00:03:11] Oh.

Kelsey Gruber [00:03:11] So it's huge. She was one of the first people I texted after I got over my shock. I texted my husband and he didn't answer, of course, because he was working and no one was answering me because it was the middle of the work day. And I was just so excited. So yes, I couldn't believe it was real life.

Anne Bogel [00:03:32] Oh, that's so kind. Yeah, I think you emailed and said, "Is this real life?"

Kelsey Gruber [00:03:36] Yeah.

Anne Bogel [00:03:37] Well, I love that about your friend, how books really do bring people together. And thank you so much for coming on. We just loved your submission because we thought it was something, listeners, as you'll hear, that so many people really relate to. And now on the cusp of summer reading season felt like a really great time to have this conversation in public.

So thank you for being so generous with your reading life. And for everyone who's ever submitted or thought about doing so, thank you for being so generous with your reading lives and your story, and your personal experience because it's what lets us do what we do.

So, Kelsey, you sent in to us and you said, "Hey, I have some things I want to talk about." What is it that brings you to What Should I Read Next? at this point in your life?

Kelsey Gruber [00:04:19] Yeah, absolutely. So I have a lot of books on my shelves that I have not read, and I was hoping, Anne, that you could tell me books from my shelves that I shouldn't read next. That maybe I should just kind of move on, that maybe they're not for me. Maybe I just wanted them because of the hype or I saw them and they looked pretty. But I want to read more from my shelves. I utilize the library a ton, but I want to read books on my shelves that I have.

Anne Bogel [00:04:50] We're going to get into that more. Kelsey, first tell us, what are you doing in your life when you're not talking books with me on a beautiful spring morning?

Kelsey Gruber [00:04:57] I am married to my handsome husband, Nick, and we just bought a house. So we've been doing renovations. That's been interesting and fun. And we, you know-

Anne Bogel [00:05:10] I was a little worried when you led with interesting.

Kelsey Gruber [00:05:12] Oh, yeah. Well, you know, we bought a house that needed some love. Previous owners liked to do things on their own. They weren't handymen, so that has been fun and interesting. But my husband and I, we love to play board games. I love to play Dungeons and Dragons, [inaudible 00:05:29] for a group of our friends and about to go back to school to become a paralegal.

Anne Bogel [00:05:35] Oh, that's so exciting. Kelsey, your story is reminding me of how I first discovered audiobooks, because Will and I bought a house in need of some serious, like, serious, serious fixing up. And that's when we discovered audiobooks. We lived next door to the library, and we would get actual audiobooks on CD and pop them into the kitchen when we were like scraping the nasty stuff off the hundred-year-old walls.

Kelsey Gruber [00:06:00] I love that. Yeah, we listen to a lot of music. I didn't think about audiobooks. We should have done that hindsight 2020. But yeah, that would have been a good idea.

Anne Bogel [00:06:09] It's never too late. How does reading fit into your life right now? What role does it play for you?

Kelsey Gruber [00:06:15] I usually read first thing in the morning. If I try to read after work or before bed, I usually read about a page and fall asleep. So morning time is definitely when I get the most reading done, suck it up. Maybe an hour or 30 minutes before I have to actually get ready for work and read as much as I can in that time. I sit on the couch with coffee. It's a good time.

Anne Bogel [00:06:39] Now, Kelsey, you come to us with a specific dilemma, so let's start wading into this. Would you tell me about being, this is your phrase, a book hoarder?

Kelsey Gruber [00:06:50] Yes, I am definitely a book hoarder. I love my mother, but I think I get it after her. She will not disagree with that, I don't think. But yeah, I mean, it's just the going to a library, a book sale, and saying, "This is a dollar, I have to get this."

And you know, I buy books and my husband has his own library now because of the books I've bought where he can peruse the shelves of books I've bought in the past years and pluck something off the shelf that he thinks might be interesting, and does the same for me. He finds some books and we trade back and forth.

So we have our own little library here but it is a problem, especially when you are moving, I've discovered. So definitely have had to purge books in the past just because we don't have a space for them, they're just extremely heavy. I love them, I love to decorate with them, but sometimes if you're not going to read it, I feel like you should pass it on to someone else who will.

Anne Bogel [00:07:49] All right, Kelsey, we're going to come back around to that. But first, I want to know a little bit about your history here. How far back does your library book sale, book buying experience go?

Kelsey Gruber [00:07:59] Oh, probably like high school. I was really into the classics when I was in high school reading Jane Austen and the Bronte sisters. And we have a used bookstore in Greensboro called Ed McKay's. Everyone should go there. It's a wonderful bookstore.

And they had classics there for, I mean, just nothing, the cost. So I would get all the ones that I felt like I should be reading, the ones that had been assigned to me in school, like The Scarlet Letter or The Great Gatsby, that kind of thing.

Then it was going to library sales with my mom. That was something we did together was to go to yard sales even. We'd drive by yard sales and we're like, "Ooh, doesn't look like they have any books. Okay, we can skip this one." I mean, honestly, that's something we have always done is try to find bargain books.

Anne Bogel [00:08:56] As you're describing this, I'm picturing the best used book sale that happens in my town that I love to go to. But would you tell me from your perspective, what is the magic about a good library book sale?

Kelsey Gruber [00:09:09] You don't know what you're going to find. I mean, any conventional bookstore with new titles, you know what you're going to get. You're going to find the newest bestsellers, the hottest indie books, that kind of thing. You kinda know what to expect.

But with a used bookstore, it's a mystery, especially like a library sale where you have all these different books that people have donated from religion to cookbooks to, you know, fiction and romance and all this different stuff.

My grandma actually had a used bookstore, and I think that was part of the mystery, too. That was such a magical place to me of there were so many books and it was such a haphazard arrangement of shelves and her system of filing things away being no sense to anyone besides her. So it was a mystery and it was like a maze. I don't know. It's just always been intriguing to me. It's been the thrill of the hunt, honestly.

Anne Bogel [00:10:08] Oh, my mom is also big about the thrill of the hunt. And it sounds like your grandma's, what to you was a haphazard arrangement, as really the perfect arrangement for readers to experience the thrill of discovering that thing that they didn't know they were looking for. Kelsey, how do you decide what books to pick up at these sales?

Kelsey Gruber [00:10:25] A lot of them are authors that I have read before. Like Lisa Jewell, I'll pick up stuff from her. I've loved several of her books. I mean, I'll buy anything that Fredrik Backman has written. So authors that I recognize or have read in the past.

But then anything honestly that I've heard on your podcast. Like recently I found a copy of The Gown that I think was on the list for Summer Reading Guide many, many summers ago. And I was like, "Oh, I remember that I wanted to get this." So it's like it triggers a memory almost of someone recommending a book, whether it's you or a friend or seeing it on book talk or wherever. Just whatever strikes me honestly.

Anne Bogel [00:11:08] So it sounds like at a library book sale or it's some, not all used bookstores, the stakes are low enough and really the price is low enough that it's easy to take a chance and kind of, you know, save it for later in your own collection.

Kelsey Gruber [00:11:21] I also justify it, if it's a library book sale, well, it's going to the library. I'm making a donation to the library. So this is a good cause. So I can justify it that way too. You know, my husband, he's always going with me and he peruses and he comes in where I buy five books, he's got one, you know. So it's-

Anne Bogel [00:11:43] But between the two of you, you spent what? Like six bucks?

Kelsey Gruber [00:11:46] Yeah, exactly. Exactly. So, I mean, we're saving a lot of money, if you think about it.

Anne Bogel [00:11:54] Now, Kelsey, I hear you when you say for you this is a problem. And it's so interesting to me how the same behavior feels wonderful to one reader and then just like it's something that can't be put up with any longer with another reader. And it just depends on, you know, your goals and priorities and your space and what you want in your reading life. So tell me a little bit about your problem.

Kelsey Gruber [00:12:19] I think the problem is not reading them when I get them home. I think that's the biggest problem. We can always buy another bookshelf. I think I would be happy to do that if I didn't have, you know, four other bookshelves with books that I haven't read on. And I feel guilty for getting rid of because I'm like, Oh, well, maybe one day I'll get to it or I'll get to it eventually.

So I think the biggest thing is buying books and supporting your library or even buying books full cost, I mean, go for it, but not reading them, I think that's the problem.

Anne Bogel [00:12:53] It sounds like you want to read what you have. And I imagine that means you also want a collection that reflects, whether they're read or as yet unread, that reflects what you love.

Kelsey Gruber [00:13:05] Yes, absolutely.

Anne Bogel [00:13:06] Okay. Tell me a little more about that.

Kelsey Gruber [00:13:08] I don't know. And I feel like it's kind of expanded over the years as well, where I grew up reading Christian romance, and now it's reading about paranormal and ghosts. It's just kind of expanded over the years or evolved, I guess I should say.

But yeah, I mean, I just want books on my shelves that make me happy. I mean, like I said, I'll buy anything that Fredrik Backman has written and I won't get rid of them. Even if I read them, I've read them, I've passed them on to friends but they're staying on that shelf because they're like friends. It's just a reminder of those good books that he's written.

Anne Bogel [00:13:46] Kelsey, you have... I mean, is there a count, is there a number how many books in yourselves that you haven't read?

Kelsey Gruber [00:13:54] Yeah, I think it's up to... because I tallied them all. I think we're up to 115 and 116. I just got my Book of the Month books, so it's gone up a little bit. But I think we're at 116 now.

Anne Bogel [00:14:10] So, Kelsey, at this moment in time, you have 116 books on yourself that you haven't read. I think it's interesting that you know this precise number because not everybody does. Not everybody wants to.

It's possible that one way to solve this problem could be with a perspective shift. Like you could think about your personal library a little bit differently. But it sounds like you've toyed with that idea and like, no, that's not what you want to do. You want to read through the books you already have, and in your own words from your submission, you want to get rid of the books that you know you'll just never get around to.

Kelsey Gruber [00:14:43] Yeah, absolutely.

Anne Bogel [00:14:44] Why don't you just do that? She says with a smile.

Kelsey Gruber [00:14:50] I know. I don't know if I just get so used to them being on my shelves that it seems... What's that theory where if you have a painting on your wall for a certain amount of time, you forget that it's even there because it's just been up there for so long? I feel like there's some kind of theory for as long as something is around you, eventually you grow to ignore it.

So I have these books on my shelves that I've had for so long that sparked joy initially and now I look at them and because I've seen them so much, they've become boring. Does that make any sense at all?

Anne Bogel [00:15:25] Yeah. Like you are well removed at this point from that moment that brought you the thrill of discovery.

Kelsey Gruber [00:15:30] Yeah, I guess they're not exciting anymore. Which I don't know why that is, but-

Anne Bogel [00:15:36] Oh, that's so interesting. That's not what I thought you were going to say. I expected you to say something more along the lines of, Well, yeah, but I don't know which ones those are.

Kelsey Gruber [00:15:44] I feel like I know myself and could pick out some good books, but then I get them home and I don't want to read them and then I don't trust myself anymore of knowing what to pick out for myself. So then I'm like, "Oh, am I just buying this because it's on somebody's list or because it actually sounds interesting to me?"

Anne Bogel [00:16:05] Kelsey, I imagine that at this point in your reading life you've had a fair amount of experience reading and loving books you brought home from library book sales and also reading books that you found in the same way that just have not been a great fit for you.

Kelsey Gruber [00:16:18] Yeah, I would say that's fair.

Anne Bogel [00:16:20] The thought of removing titles and authors from your home, like by proxy, like with the long hook that extends from me to Virginia, kind of stresses me out. But I am taking to heart what you said and then it's to help you understand your reading life so that you can read through the books you already have that you're likely to really enjoy, and also so you can get rid of the books that you know you'll just never get around to, and so you can have a collection that reflects what you love and that feels like glorious possibility and maybe like less of a random draw, like, let's see if this one works out for me or not.

Kelsey Gruber [00:16:57] Right.

Anne Bogel [00:16:58] And to do that, I think what we want to do is really take a look at where you are right now in your reading life. Tell me if I'm wrong but I'm getting the sense that since you have had such wonderful chance encounters with books that you have enjoyed and know you'll continue to enjoy reading at these serendipitous library book sales, it feels like you hold your books with a loose hand. I mean, not your Fredrick Backman. You want those back when you loan them out to friends?

But mostly it sounds like you're not terribly concerned with getting a book that in five years you'll discover, "Wait, I desperately want to read that today and I gave it away five years ago. Darn it, Darn it. I paid a dollar for it, and now it's gone." Am I forming an accurate picture?

Kelsey Gruber [00:17:41] Yeah, I think so.

Anne Bogel [00:17:43] So not all readers hoard their books loosely. It sounds like you do. And you're just interested in coming up with an arrangement in your home that you feel like makes you happy right now.

Kelsey Gruber [00:17:53] Yes.

Anne Bogel [00:17:54] Kelsey, I think what we need to do next is talk about your books. Are you ready?

Kelsey Gruber [00:17:58] I am so excited.

Anne Bogel [00:18:01] Kelsey, you know how this works. You're going to tell me three books you love, one book you don't, and what you've been reading lately, and we will talk about what you may enjoy reading next from your own shelves and also maybe also gently assess what is on yourselves now that might not be priority reads for you.

Kelsey Gruber [00:18:22] I love it.

Anne Bogel [00:18:23] Is that tactful or wishy-washy?

Kelsey Gruber [00:18:25] No, I think that's very good. I love it.

Anne Bogel [00:18:28] Okay, let's do it. How did you choose these books for today?

Kelsey Gruber [00:18:31] Everyone says this on your show, but it's really hard to pick three books that you love because you want to pick your ultimate favorites. I tried to pick books that represent me now, at least most recently, like past five years, including reading during a pandemic and being trapped at home and that kind of thing.

So my first book that I loved is Fierce Kingdom by Gin Phillips. I guess this is very representative of how much I love thrillers. That's what got me into this book. I loved the book flap where it was the tease of Joan takes her 4-year-old son to the zoo, she's trying to leave and then what happens next has her running for the next 3 hours. I think that's what the book flap roughly says. So I was hooked from that.

But the thing about this book that wasn't like any other thriller I had read is I read this, I think, five years ago, and I have thought about this book probably once a week since then.

Anne Bogel [00:19:37] Oh, wow.

Kelsey Gruber [00:19:38] I think about this book more than I think I've thought about any other book because of Gin Phillips... It's no coincidence that this takes place at a zoo. I mean, she does this very artfully. This woman takes her son to the zoo and ends up having to protect him with animalistic ferocity pretty much.

I mean, she is being hunted like a lot of animals are but she becomes this epitome of a mother protecting her young. And I've thought about that so much when it comes to seeing my sister with her kids, thinking about just briefly my nephew, he is six and he's in school now and he has started to get bullied by one particular kid in his class. And the mama bear reaction that I had at hearing that news of like, "No one's going to hurt him. I'm going to take care of him." And he's not even my kid. I mean, he's my nephew.

So just that instinct that women have to protect the children in their lives, whether it's their biological children or ones that they love. But I've just thought about that so much, of how she artfully showed that metaphor without it being like heavy-handed.

Anne Bogel [00:20:57] So you picked it up because you were attracted to the thriller aspect and really ended up finding something that you connected with emotionally that you've been thinking about ever since, like five plus years. That's really meaningful.

Kelsey Gruber [00:21:09] Yeah. And I think that's definitely books that... Of course, I love a good thriller. I love a good ride. But when a book makes me stop and think and reflect and compare it to my life or the lives of others, I think that's when it's the perfect fit.

Anne Bogel [00:21:27] That sounds good. Kelsey, tell me about another book you love.

Kelsey Gruber [00:21:31] I kind of cheated. I got The Fifth Season by N.K. Jemisin, but I'll just throw the whole trilogy in there. The Broken Earth trilogy. But The Fifth Season, it follows this woman named Essun, and she has these special abilities and other people like her in this world. Have these special abilities to manipulate the earth.

But these people who have these gifts are ostracized pretty much. They're looked down on because it is kind of dangerous the gift that they have. But I loved how N.K. Jemisin... I felt like there was just this beautiful parallel to racism and segregation of keeping people who are different apart. But she didn't do it in a preachy way, which I feel like a lot of writers could do that. I was completely sucked in to this world through her writing. The girl can write. I mean, there's no denying it.

Anne Bogel [00:22:28] Now, we can call her an actual genius now that she has a MacArthur.

Kelsey Gruber [00:22:31] Absolutely. No, this woman is a genius.

Anne Bogel [00:22:33] I mean, I would have said it before, but...

Kelsey Gruber [00:22:36] But you can't fully comprehend the magic of this world, of these powers these people have. Times where I was like, I don't think I fully understand what she's saying, but I like it. I like the way she's saying it. I'm there with her, even if I can't fully comprehend it. Obviously, it's not something that's in our real world. It's make believe, so it is kind of hard to get there. But just the way she wrote it, I bought it. I was like, "Yeah, absolutely. Makes sense. Makes perfect sense to me."

I was reading this book because my husband had gotten it for Christmas, so I read it after him. And I was reading the first book and he had already moved on to the second. And I finished the first book and we were sitting on the couch together and I was just tapping my foot like, "Okay, you're done with the second book now?" "Okay, any minute now." You know, just watching him very, you know, probably creepily on the couch, like, "Are you done yet?" That last page of the book, I was just, "Okay, where's the next one? I need the next one now." Same with the second one, just needing the third afterwards.

Anne Bogel [00:23:39] Well, interestingly, I can see a real connection between N.K. Jemisin and your thriller experience, which is very different books. But N.K. Jemisin writes speculative fiction, but she also explores those deeply human issues in the same way that you found yourself really connecting to in that thriller. Kelsey, tell me about being a self-professed sci-fi lover.

Kelsey Gruber [00:24:03] Yeah, this is new for me, honestly, because I'm really nerdy, but I feel like it's a lot from being in the board game world in the Dungeons and Dragons world where that just kind of opened up this new genre for me. Just the fact that someone in space could have a very similar relationship with their family than I do here on Earth. It's just like how you could have such a fantastical place be so similar to your real life and how that is just kind of mind-boggling. But good writers do that extremely well.

During the pandemic, I wanted to be in a different world. I was very open to, Okay, let's pick a different place to be, you know?

Anne Bogel [00:24:53] Kelsey, what other kinds of books are you really drawn to these days?

Kelsey Gruber [00:24:56] Still definitely into the thriller, mystery. I've moved into paranormal and books about ghosts. I don't know how I've gotten into this area of my life, but I just find that very interesting, usually because it has to deal with people dealing with grief.

And as someone who has dealt with that, I mean, we all have, of losing someone that is compelling. It is something you want to read about just because you feel understood honestly, and it's something we can all relate to. That's kind of the road I've gone down. I guess we'll talk about that later with the books I've been reading recently.

Anne Bogel [00:25:33] Yes, we will. Tell me about the final book you chose as a favorite.

Kelsey Gruber [00:25:37] The final one is The 7 1/2 Deaths of Evelyn Hardcastle. This book also came to me during the pandemic. I had a good friend at work who she pushed this into my hands and said, "You have to read this. This book is so good." I read it just in a couple of days' time. Just a real page-turner. She completely sold me on it. So I said, "Okay. "

And I started reading it and I was like, "What is this? I don't like this. I don't know why she likes this so much." It just started out really slow. But after I got through the initial part of it, I could not put it down. And it is such a fun ride. I mean, from just the standpoint of there was no lesson, there was no moral. At least in my mind there wasn't. There was nothing to take away from the book. And this was probably hurting the author's feelings that I'm saying this, but it was just fun. It was just a good ride, honestly.

But the story follows Aidan Bishop. And it's kind of like 1920s style Downton Abbey era, where he is charged with trying to figure out who murdered Evelyn Hardcastle. So he has to figure this out by reliving the same day over and over again through someone else's point of view, like literally from their body.

And I usually don't like the Groundhog's Day thing where you just do the same thing over and over again but this book was done so well that I didn't mind that because they didn't keep showing the same thing over and over again. It was just very different angles that just kept it very engaging.

Anne Bogel [00:27:20] That sounds like a good fit for you.

Kelsey Gruber [00:27:22] It was, yes.

Anne Bogel [00:27:23] Now, Kelsey, tell me about a book that wasn't a good fit for you.

Kelsey Gruber [00:27:27] I think for the reasons that these other books are for me, this is the reason this book wasn't for me. The book is Little Fires Everywhere by Celeste Ng. I know this is a huge favorite to some people. But I just felt like Celeste wanted me to feel certain things about certain characters that I didn't feel.

It felt a little heavy-handed to me of the heroine of the story. She just seemed like a bad person to me, and I felt like I was supposed to like her, and I didn't. I didn't like her life choices. There are other people in the book where they seem to be like martyrs of the story, and I just didn't feel sympathy for them.

That probably makes, you know, anyone who loves this book cringe. And I had somebody tell me that I didn't like it because I wasn't a mom and I didn't understand what it was to be a mom. And I can understand that on some level, but I don't know.

Anne Bogel [00:28:26] That's a pretty rough thing to tell somebody about a book. I think there are other reasons to find a certain book not to be to your taste. Because reading takes us into worlds we don't know, right? Like that is one of the goals.

Well, also, I mean, maybe you don't want to read about suburban malaise. Maybe you want your characters to be more likable, especially if you're reading during times that are rough. Maybe we're noticing that this is really the only character-driven book that you've cited, and your other ones have moved really quickly. Like maybe you didn't find this one to have the narrative drive that you really want from your stories at this point in your life. I mean, there are lots of other options here.

But as we look through your books that we're going to recommend, do you do any of those resonate? Is it characteristic of your preferences that you do like your books to move quickly, that you do want something with strong narrative drive, that you do want something a little plottier and a less character-driven?

Kelsey Gruber [00:29:17] I'd say that's pretty much me to a tee recently.

Anne Bogel [00:29:21] That's helpful. We will keep that in mind. Kelsey, what have you been reading lately? Can we start by saying, like, what do you get from Book of the Month? You mentioned that and I was just curious.

Kelsey Gruber [00:29:30] Yeah. So I haven't started these yet, but I got Weyward by Emilia Hart, and I got The Soulmate by Sally Hepworth.

Anne Bogel [00:29:40] Okay, you haven't read them yet, but it's still so interesting to hear what you're drawn to. What else have you been reading?

Kelsey Gruber [00:29:47] The last two books I read I read them pretty quickly. Ninth House by Leigh Bardugo. This was in that paranormal realm that I was talking about before. And I love a good world where it mirrors our own, where this girl is on Yale's campus and it looks like Yale's campus would. But there are secret societies in the Yale community who are doing all those magical things behind the scenes, kind of manipulating the world that we're living in. I blew through that book. That was so good. I can't wait to read a second one.

The second book that I just plowed through was Verity by Colleen Hoover. I read this book and I did not like it just because I think the hype was built up that BookTok and bookstagram. Once a book is just built up so much and it doesn't meet those expectations, it's hard to come back from that. But I just didn't buy it.

I mean, I like to call myself a writer, I majored in creative writing in college, and I just didn't buy the writer's standpoint on this. Not Colleen Hoover, but the main character, Verity, who is a writer. I just didn't buy it.

And then the book that I am currently reading is, funny enough, a very character-driven book, Anne, it's Lost and Wanted by Nell Freudenberger.

Anne Bogel [00:31:16] Kelsey, I have to tell you, I saw this on your list because we haven't told our listeners that you sent me a list of your 114 books. You've since added a couple to it.

Kelsey Gruber [00:31:25] Yes.

Anne Bogel [00:31:25] But I saw that on your list and I thought, "Oh, it's science. Oh wait, no, I don't see her enjoying this." So now it's time for the light mini-reveal. How's that going?

Kelsey Gruber [00:31:34] It's so interesting because, I mean, you nailed it earlier. I like a plot-driven book. I'm about halfway through it and I keep wanting to come back to it and read it. It's got that paranormal feel. The main character gets a missed call from her best friend after her best friend has passed. I believe it was the day before. But the main character is also a physicist, which is not my expertise in any sense of the word. Pretty sure I failed physics in high school. And a lot of the terms and black hole theories are big and hard to understand.

But I feel like the author is comparing these two things, loss and grief and what happens after you die, to this expanse of universe that we do not understand. So that I think is the intriguing part to me. It does feel kind of slow because it's not plot-driven, it's more character-driven. But I think the intrigue of finding out why she's getting these calls and texts from her dead friend is what's driving me through this, that I want to find out what the answer is.

Anne Bogel [00:32:49] Yeah. Kelsey, I have thoughts, but I can't share them until you finish. But I will say that I wanted this book to be something other than what it was. Not because it's what I wanted going in, but I feel like Freudenberger dangled the prospect out there and I thought, "Oh, that sounds good, let's do that." And it wasn't that kind of story. But I'd be very interested in hearing how this ends up landing for you and also perhaps what you would have done with it with your creative writing glasses on.

Kelsey Gruber [00:33:16] Yeah. I mean, I can assume probably where you're going with it. And that's what my biggest fear is with this book is I'll get to the end and I'm like, "Oh, man, really?" Like I read Home After Dark by I think it was Riley Sager, and it was this premise of this house is haunted, there are ghosts. And it didn't end how I wanted it to because, like you said, I went into it expecting something else. So I don't like that. But, I mean, you've got to take a risk.

Anne Bogel [00:33:47] Yeah. Well, you've been fascinated by ghosts and you think that connects to grief. I think sometimes what you want is you want the ghost story. You don't want the ghostly story. You don't want that specter raised and then it to have a rational explanation. Like you want the author to go all in sometimes is what I'm imagining based on your proclivities. and a lot of books don't. A lot of books backpedal and explain things away and say, "Oh, it was just my imagination." and that's not what you want.

Kelsey Gruber [00:34:12] Exactly. 100%.

Anne Bogel [00:34:14] All right. Well, thank you for that peek. That's incredibly helpful as we talk about the direction we're moving in. So, Kelsey, how can I be of help today? So this is like “the bibliotherapist is in” kind of situation.

Kelsey Gruber [00:34:28] Yes, I'm so excited.

Anne Bogel [00:34:31] So I have your list of 114 titles, and I got my yellow highlighter out for the "Oh, yes, I'm definitely seeing this." I have a brown highlighter. They're fine liner so you can still totally see that I highlighted Lost and Wanted by Nell Freudenberger and some other titles.

And something that I want to make very clear as we're talking about what you may or may not enjoy reading right now is that we are looking at your books at a very specific moment in your reading life. This is for right now. We all grow and evolve as readers and you can want different things later. While you a different sort of book collector, I wouldn't tell you to get rid of things.

I think that's why this is a little trickier for me, because you haven't just said, "What should I prioritize?" You said, "What should I actually remove from my home?" I just want to make sure the agency stays with you here.

But as I'm going through this list, I can see not for you right now at least, I suspect as much is that character-driven literary fiction or even like nature writing. Like Pilgrim at Tinker Creek by Annie Dillard, that's a book that a lot of people love. I don't think that's it for you right now. Marilynne Robinson, I don't think that's it for you right now. Even Elizabeth Strout.

Prodigal Summer, a great book, almost a timely book as we move into that season by Barbara Kingsolver. I don't think that's it for you right now. You know, I did think a book that wasn't right for you was going to be Grief Cottage by Gail Godwin. And I do mean, I can't emphasize this enough, right now at this point in your reading life. But Kelsey, that's a ghost story.

So something that I do want to gently encourage you is that as we're talking about books that's taken as a group aren't necessarily right for you right now, when if you do feel ready to to take steps in that direction, to try new books, to put a foot in that camp and say like, "Oh, you know, is this feeling more comfortable now?" And I don't mean like May, I mean like a little down the road. Because as our circumstances change, as our experiences build, our reading preferences often change and evolve as well. This is a good thing.

But maybe Grief Cottage would be interesting for you to explore right now, knowing that it's quieter, more contemplative, literary fiction, character-driven because it does have that element you feel yourself drawn to right now.

Angle of Repose by Wallace Stegner, no, not for you right now, I don't think. The Muse by Jessie Burton, Les Misérables, Crossing to Safety, I love that book, I don't think it's for you right now. But that doesn't mean it can't be for you later.

Although there are so many of those books on there, Kelsey, that I do wonder like something is grabbing you here, what is it? Is it something about the books themselves, do you think? It could be as simple as the name recognition. You know, you heard it on the podcast, you saw it at the library book sale, It's a dollar, so you grabbed it. But I do want to just stop for a moment and ask that question before we move on.

Kelsey Gruber [00:37:27] I think majoring in English and creative writing really impacted the books that I pick up. So Wallace Stegner, having the classics on my shelves like Les Mis, that kind of thing. It's books that I should have in my mind. And I know that "should" is a dirty word. But yeah, I think that's the main thing of would I be normally drawn to those books? No. Probably not. But I feel like it's books that I should have on my shelf and then I should read, if that makes sense.

Anne Bogel [00:38:02] I mean, Kelsey, there's no reason necessarily. Well, there's no reason inherently for you to not to have those on your shelf. You could put them on a different shelf of books that you think you should have because of your interest. They don't have to be the books you read. But I did want to note, because you asked, that I don't see those being the ones that are going to set your reading heart on fire right now. But there's so much good stuff here that I think you really could enjoy a lot. Can we talk about that?

Kelsey Gruber [00:38:29] Absolutely.

Anne Bogel [00:38:31] Well, first of all, of course, I notice the thrillers, All The Missing Girls by Megan Miranda, The Last Mrs. Parrish by Liv Constantine, a different kind of one, Jane Steele by Lyndsay Faye. I wondered about some of the fast-moving romance, like Helen Hoang's The Bride Test. You have some really interesting offbeat picks on here, like Scribe by Alyson Hagy. I'm not sure how that would land for you, but I'm interested. I'm interested in finding out.

I notice that you have a Fredrik Backman you haven't read, so I look forward to that on your behalf. But then there are some here that I really want to take the time to encourage you toward because I think they could be... I mean, I saw these and I thought, "Oh, of course, that's on Kelsey's list." I'll give you a handful.

So first I noticed Sorrowland by Rivers Solomon, who they are such a great fit for fans of N. K. Jemisin. Sorrowland is already on your list. Also, The Deep and Ring Shout are titles you may be familiar with and may enjoy.

Sorrowland was published in 2021. It's a blend of horror and contemporary fiction. Often, this book is described as gothic horror. This feels right for your reading tastes right now. And the story is about a woman, her name is Vern. She's seven months pregnant and she escapes the strict religious community she has been raised in, a place called Cain Land.

She escapes into the woods and she gives birth to twins and she names them Howl and Feral. And she's on her own with them in the woods for years. And in the intervening years after she's left this religious community, strange things start to happen to her and her body. She has a theory for what's going on and it gets a little bit complicated but also she feels very much called to protect and defend her twins that she is determined to raise and to keep safe in the wilderness.

You mentioned in your submission that you like books that trick you into thinking about hard topics without being preachy. Yeah. I will say that Rivers Solomon is a genius, especially when it comes to this. And what this book is very much about, I'm quoting Roxane Gay here, “This country has a dark history of what it's willing to do to Black bodies and Rivers Solomon lays that truth bare in a most unexpected, absolutely brilliant way.”

Kelsey, Rivers Solomon isn't trying to trick you. But I think you know what I mean when I say this really sounds like you. And I don't know if you've read Rivers Solomon before. I love their author bio. It says, Rivers Solomon writes about life in the margins where they are much at home. How does that one sound to you?

Kelsey Gruber [00:41:10] I think I picked this up at a Barnes and Noble and was drawn to the cover and obviously read the book flap and it did sound like me. And then it just kind of sat there, obviously. But yeah, I think definitely. And the whole science fiction mixed with paranormal a little bit, you know. So, yeah, I think it sounds good.

Anne Bogel [00:41:31] I didn't realize this when I saw it on your list, but hearing you talk about the Gin Phillips book, I can hear some of those echoes in Rivers Solomon, which I was really not expecting, of that fierce drive to protect.

Kelsey Gruber [00:41:46] Yes.

Anne Bogel [00:41:46] Yeah. I love seeing this offbeat pick on your list that we're going to talk about next. The Travelling Cat Chronicles by Hiro Arikawa. Do you remember picking this one up?

Kelsey Gruber [00:41:56] Yeah. So I actually got that for my husband for Christmas. He read it and he loved it. I've always been meaning to read it, too, because he liked it.

Anne Bogel [00:42:05] Okay, how can I describe this book absent of spoilers? This is a Japanese novel. It's about ten years old. You know all about this, I imagine, because your husband read it. But listeners, this is about a young boy named Satoru who takes a road trip with his cat, Nana the cat, who hasn't always been his cat. Nana came to him at a certain point in his life when it might be fair to say they needed each other. Nana definitely needed him. So they are on a road trip with a purpose in mind, a purpose that Satoru is not telling to his cat.

But this is a very sweet and beguiling and just really unusual story that I think you could really enjoy. Does your husband think you'll like this, Kelsey?

Kelsey Gruber [00:42:51] Yeah, I think so. I love Fredrik Backman. It felt very in that kind of vein of sweet but really sad kind of offbeat, if that makes sense. Yeah, it just seems like a good style fit for me, I think.

Anne Bogel [00:43:11] I think so too. And two more because I was excited to see on your list are The Ten Thousand Doors of January by Alix E. Harrow. It's a literary mystery. It's got a time travel element. It's a book about books, a coming-of-age story. It's got adventure and suspense and revenge and a fast-moving plot.

And it kicks into gear when a young woman whose name is January finds a blue door in the middle of a field and she's able to look through it into another world. I think that's a good fit for you. Oh, my gosh. Okay.

Well, the book I was going to tell you about is The Martian by Andy Weir. That was the other one. And this is hard science fiction. Lots of very sciency science, which I don't know... How do you feel about that kind of sci-fi?

Kelsey Gruber [00:43:53] I'm okay with just as long as it's not... the writer gets bogged down in trying to explain these things for pages on end that I just will not understand no matter how long they describe them for and that it doesn't hinder the plot or anything like that. But yeah, I'm willing to dive in now.

Anne Bogel [00:44:11] I think this is a great fit for you. Like, I'm surprised you haven't read it yet. It's a big book, but it also seems so firmly in your alley with your new sci-fi explorations.

Then I know you've been reading a lot of classics, so I have to point out that you have two Agatha Christie's on your list. You've been in the classics, you've been in the mysteries, you're in the thrillers. So you could pair And Then There Were None, the world's bestselling mystery, Kelsey, classic of the genre. You studied creative writing in school. But then The Woman in Cabin 10 is very much in that same lineage. That could be a fun one to follow up with. And this is Ruth Ware's debut. So she's now gone on to write a whole ton of thrillers, some of which I'm guessing you've probably read. Is that the case?

Kelsey Gruber [00:44:52] Does she write In a Dark, Dark Wood?

Anne Bogel [00:44:55] Yes, that is her book.

Kelsey Gruber [00:44:57] I've read that one. That one was good.

Anne Bogel [00:44:59] And Kelsey, I have one final recommendation for you. It's a book that I've been talking about, I feel like a lot, in our patron community lately. So patrons, you've heard this before. But that book is Wrong Place, Wrong Time by Gillian McAllister. Is this a book that you've read?

Kelsey Gruber [00:45:14] No.

Anne Bogel [00:45:15] Okay. This is a time travel mystery and it has great narrative drive. But what I like about it for you is it has that fun time travel element. I think it's referred to as a time loop in the book, but it's not like a Groundhog Day kind of time loop. But it has this time travel component, and yet at its heart, this book is very much about getting to the roots of this woman's most important relationships.

The crux of the mystery and the thing that's going to get her out of being stuck out of her time is understanding some of the choices the people she loves most made a long time ago. So I think that's dual appeal of the deeply human emotional connection and the flashy, "ooh, what's happening here with the time travel?" would be really appealing for you.

So what happens is in the very beginning, there's a happily married woman looking out the window up too late waiting for her 18-year-old son to come home. So she's peering through the windows. It's the night before Halloween, there's a pumpkin there that they're carving, and she sees them coming down the street. And she also sees the suspicious older man following him.

And before she can quite put two and two together, like what's going on, what's happening, she watches her son harm this man. And she and her husband rush out and the police come and they go to the station and it's horrible. And she wakes up the next morning thinking, "I can't believe this is my life. My husband's already gone. He must be at the station, my poor son. Like how could this horrible thing have happened? What is going to happen next?"

And then her son says, Good morning and the pumpkin is not there because her husband hasn't bought it yet and nothing terrible has happened. And she's like, "What is going on?" And that keeps happening. Like, when she wakes up the next day, it's not the next day, it's the day before the day before the crime. And then she wakes up the day before that and the day before that.

And eventually she's sleeping. And month and then yearlong segments going back further and further and further and further because a physicist, and we know you've been intrigued by that scientist weighing in on the weird happenings element, has told her, you know, "Hey, I wonder if you go back in time far enough to change the timeline and stop the crime from ever happening, then you'll break out of the loop and go back to your life." And she goes back and back and back and back and back. And I just think you could find this really satisfying.

Kelsey Gruber [00:47:36] It seems very similar to at least the time loop thing of 11/22/63 by Stephen King. And I loved that.

Anne Bogel [00:47:45] Oh gosh.

Kelsey Gruber [00:47:45] That was so good.

Anne Bogel [00:47:45] It's been a long time since I've read that book.

Kelsey Gruber [00:47:47] But the trying to go back and fix a problem, it all sounds really good.

Anne Bogel [00:47:54] Yes. I think you're going to like it. Okay, Kelsey, the books we talked about today, what we talked about, the books we thought you might want to consider deprioritizing and maybe taking them off your to-be-read shelves. So I'd be really interested in seeing you think about our conversation, reflect on what sounded good to you right now.

I'd encourage you to think about Kelsey five years from now and how you want to start the shelves for her now or how you don't want to. But also, I want to hear what you think about these books we talked about that do seem promising for you.

They are Sorrowland by Rivers Solomon, The Ten Thousand Doors of January by Alix E. Harrow, The Martian by Andy Weir, we touched on And Then There Were None by Agatha Christie, and The Woman in Cabin 10 by Ruth Ware. And then we ended with Wrong Place Wrong Time by Gillian McAllister.

Kelsey, of those books, what is rising to the top? What do you think you might read next? Oh, my gosh. You know what I just realized, though? I gave you a book that wasn't on your list. I think it's such a good fit, but I didn't exactly mean to do it. But of those books, why do you think you may read next?

Kelsey Gruber [00:49:01] Yeah, I think Sorrowland is probably going to be my next pick. That or The Martian.

Anne Bogel [00:49:08] Well, either way, I'm happy to hear it. I think those do sound like excellent fits for you. Kelsey, thank you so much for talking books with me today.

Kelsey Gruber [00:49:15] Thank you, Anne. This has been so much fun.

Anne Bogel [00:49:21] Hey readers, I hope you enjoyed my discussion with Kelsey and I'd love to hear what you think she should read next. Find Kelsey on Instagram @Kelseykissescoffee and see the full list of the titles we talked about today at whatshouldireadnextpodcast.com.

Stay current with all things What Should I Read Next? by subscribing to our newsletter at whatshouldireadnextpodcast.com/newsletter. And be sure you're following along on Instagram. Our show's page is @whatshouldireadnext. And you'll find me there @annebogel. Follow along in Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Overcast, wherever you get your podcasts.

Thanks to the people who make the show happen. What Should I Read Next? is created each week by Will Bogel, Holly Wielkoszewski, and Studio D Podcast Production. Readers, that's it for this episode. Thanks so much for listening. And as Rainer Maria Rilke said, "Ah! how good it is to be among people who are reading." Happy reading, everyone.