Books that just WORK for me

[00:00:00] ANNE BOGEL: You don't have to be sad about it.

DEBBIE DAY: I am sad. I feel like-

ANNE: This is just data.

DEBBIE: I feel like I brought this half-baked theory, and now I'm expecting you to do all the research and figure it out, so. Sorry.

ANNE: No, this is what we do here.

Hey readers, I'm Anne Bogel, and this is What Should I Read Next?. Welcome to the show that's dedicated to answering the question that plagues every reader, what should I read next? We don't get bossy on this show. What we will do here is give you the information you need to choose your next read. Every week we'll talk all things books and reading, and do a little literary matchmaking with one guest.

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[00:02:04] Readers, today's guest, Debbie Day, is joining me from the Nashville area, where she is enjoying settling into retirement and empty nesting. And she's loving having more time for travel, dancing, cooking, spending time with friends and family, and of course, reading, including with the new book club that she helped create.

Debbie is grateful that now she's able to better, and especially more leisurely, explore what makes a book really click for her as a reader. She's joining me to share what she's learned so far, especially as she's learned things she didn't expect to discover. And she's looking for new titles that might deliver the reading experiences that she now knows she would like to have more often.

This extra time to reflect on her reading life has led Debbie to discover an unexpected common thread among her favorite books, and that is an interesting structure. Now that she's homed in on this element, Debbie is on the hunt for more such books, but she's not sure where to go look for them. As a structure nerd myself, you know I have ideas for Debbie, and I can't wait to talk about all of it with her today.

[00:03:12] Readers, first a note. Every once in a while, we get some audio gremlins during a recording, and today is one of those days. You'll hear a few small disruptions, especially in the first few minutes, but we think they won't detract too much from your listening enjoyment. Thanks for listening. Let's get to it.

Debbie, welcome to the show.

DEBBIE: Hi. Thank you so much for having me.

ANNE: All right.

DEBBIE: Super excited.

ANNE: Thank you for being here. When I saw your submission, I thought, "Ooh." And when our team members saw your submission, they went, "Anne, you’ve got to look at what Debbie's looking for right now." So thanks for bringing it to the show.

DEBBIE: Absolutely.

ANNE: Debbie, we'd love to start by just giving our readers a glimpse of who you are. Could you tell us a little about yourself?

DEBBIE: Sure, yeah. I am calling in from just south of Nashville. I live in a new community, actually. My husband and I moved here recently. We're pretty excited about it because it's kind of specifically designed for community, so lots of things to get involved with and people to meet and friends to make, so we're excited for that.

[00:04:21] I retired shortly ago. I was a preschool director for years and years, but as my children are flying, leaving the nest, just kind of decided to take this time to just spend with my husband and travel and do fun things.

ANNE: Well, that sounds lovely.

DEBBIE: Yeah.

ANNE: Now, Debbie, would you tell us about your reading life?

[00:04:50] DEBBIE: Sure. Obviously, lifelong reader, just one of those people that just obsesses over books. Always remember just hankering to go to the library. I had a kind of a mail order... a book subscription that I just remember just anxiously waiting for it to arrive every month. And then enter high school and college, and the reading for pleasure definitely dropped off, like I've heard many listeners or many of your guests say.

Then after college, you know, raising a family, all that good stuff, I got involved in a book club, got invited to a book club, and that really brought me back to reading again, which has been wonderful. I'm glad to have it back. It's a great hobby. Enjoy it. And love to talk about books, and was able to, in the community that we moved into, start a new book club. So that's been really fun.

[00:05:59] ANNE: I'm glad to hear it. Now, Debbie, you mentioned that you have listened to this show for a long time. I'm curious to hear what brings you to What Should I Read Next? in this season, in this role, in What Should I Read Next?

DEBBIE: Sure. As I have more time being retired, have more time not only to read, but to think about my reading life, I've really been trying to figure out what it is that makes a book just work for me. You know, for years and years, I've always... I love cooking, I love food and travel, love learning lots of nerdy things about all that. So I kind of always assumed that all my favorite books somehow tied into food or wine or travel.

And then kind of as I've just been exploring it more, I feel like that's a piece of it, but not necessarily the whole picture. So one of my top three books, I was reading it recently and realized it had nothing to do with food or cooking, and it just... There was something about it that spoke to me, and I kind of realized, I think it might be an interesting structure or an interesting format for a book that draws me in.

[00:07:23] So I really would love some help, A, figuring out if that's accurate, like, if that is truly what's drawing me to books, and then, B, helping explore that more. Like, where do I find books like that? I'm open to exploring new genres that kind of maybe meet that criteria. So, yeah, I need your help.

ANNE: That is an interesting shift between thinking you may be interested in books that are food, wine-related to interesting structures. I love a book with an interesting structure, so this will be fun. Now, you mentioned that one of your favorites got you thinking about this new theory for what really works for you in your reading life. Is now a good time to talk about your books?

DEBBIE: Sure.

ANNE: Okay. All right. Debbie, you know how this works. You're going to tell me three books you love, one book you don't, and what you've been reading lately, and then we're going to poke at this theory a little bit and see what we discover. How did you choose these books that you brought to the show today?

[00:08:37] DEBBIE: I just kind of looked back at my five-star reads and tried to kind of focus obviously on ones that have really stuck with me, but that in looking back, really maybe kind of match this theory. I'd say that that's kind of how I kind of chose these three, but definitely ones that have stuck with me for a long time.

ANNE: Well, let's jump in. Debbie, what's the first book you love?

DEBBIE: The first book I chose was Like Water for Chocolate by Laura Esquivel. Some folks may have seen the movie, but the book is pretty special. It has a little magical realism story set at the turn of the century during the Mexican Revolution, and it is fun, it's quirky. I feel like that's something else that I have seen as I'm trying to flesh out what a good book is to me. I need a quirky character and someone that I can root for, and Like Water for Chocolate provides, for sure.

[00:09:48] Tita is a young lady, and she is the youngest daughter of kind of tyrannical mother. And just through tradition, she is supposed to never marry, not leave home, take care of her mother for life. That does not jive with the love Tita feels for Pedro. Basically, the mother says, "Nope, there will be no marriage for you," and Pedro instead ends up marrying Tita's sister just to stay close. You can imagine all that ensues in this very complicated, complicated story, family drama.

But what I loved and kind of the food aspect of it, so every chapter opens as a different month of the year, and it opens with a recipe. The recipes tie in with a little bit of the magical realism in the book.

[00:10:55] For instance, she's baking the wedding cake for her sister. She cries tears into the batter, and that has a detrimental effect to all of the guests when they eat the cake. They all end up, well, not only sick, but just in puddles and tears. They feel the deep sorrow that she did when she was baking this cake. No spoiler alerts, but it's also a little tragic, but just a really fun story, just a really interesting story.

ANNE: Okay. Like Water for Chocolate is book one. Debbie, what did you choose for your second loved book?

DEBBIE: My second book was The School of Essential Ingredients by Erica Bauermeister. I'm not usually a completist. I like a lot of variety, but Erica Bauermeister is one that I've read many of her books, not a completist, but many of her books, and really enjoy her writing.

[00:11:57] The School of Essential Ingredients is about a chef who is hosting monthly cooking classes, and each chapter is focused on one of the participants in the class. Her name is Lillian, the chef. Lillian helps them basically through the course of that chapter, during that class, to discover what the essential ingredients to their life, their situation, their problem is. It's also got several endearing characters. I wouldn't say as quirky as Tita in Like Water for Chocolate, but still folks that you can root for.

ANNE: All right, that's The School of Essential Ingredients as your second book. Debbie, what's the final book you love?

[00:12:54] DEBBIE: The third book I chose was, and this I read fairly recently, Where'd You Go, Bernadette by Maria Semple. This book is really what made me open my eyes to say, "Maybe it doesn't have to involve food and cooking to be a top contender." It does have definitely some quirky characters, for sure.

Where'd You Go, Bernadette is about an adolescent lady, young girl, with a very quirky mom, Bernadette. A series of events happens that make you understand Bernadette maybe struggles with some serious mental illness, agoraphobia, as a result of a... which the book opens, which I absolutely love, with Bee, that is the adolescent, with Bee's report card. And as a result of doing a great job and getting ready to move on to the planned boarding school experience, Bee picks a trip to Antarctica as her reward.

[00:14:07] So they're preparing as a family to go to Antarctica. Well, series of crazy events. It ends up that Bee and her father do not go to Antarctica, but Bernadette does, and she gets lost. The book is basically the backstory behind how all of that comes to be, and then Bee and her father reuniting with Bernadette in Antarctica. It's not really epistolary, but I especially loved the first half, which was just chock-full of, like I said, the report card, emails back and forth, letters, articles from Bernadette's past. I think that's what really drove that book for me.

ANNE: Okay. And this, I presume, is the one that spurred the realization.

DEBBIE: Yes, it is.

ANNE: Okay. Would you say more about that?

DEBBIE: Yeah, I was like, well... because it's interesting because I actually really loved... and I listened to this on audio. I really loved the first half of the book in particular, and that's where all of those bits and pieces of information, the letters, the emails, all of that was concentrated.

[00:15:29] Then the second half of the book was more just the story, the story of reuniting with Bernadette, and I think that just made me realize, oh, okay, what really drew me in was the different format, the different structure. And then I started looking back at all of my five-star reads, and it kind of dawned on me, oh, okay, most of these have an interesting format, something that just grabs you from the get-go.

ANNE: Debbie, I think you said that you had more five-star reads that matched this theory. What are some of those books?

DEBBIE: Okay. Theo of Golden, of course. Just how the portraits of the people kind of inform the story. The Only Plane in the Sky: An Oral History of 9/11. Oh my goodness, I loved that so much. I listened to it on audio. I mean, obviously it's interviewing people, but the way that they're little snippets and they're organized in, you know, the time leading up to and over those horrific hours. But the way that it's laid out and the stories are interwoven was just magical to me. I really enjoyed that book.

[00:16:54] North Woods also. The location, but the fact that it was years, decades, centuries in between when we visit and the fact that they're interwoven, that those stories are interwoven, I loved that. Love an epistolary.

Love & Saffron was a highlight. And The Correspondent. Both of those I loved. And then a more recent five-star that I love, Fresh Water for Flowers by Valérie Perrin. Short chapters, very short chapters, but they all open with an epitaph or inscription, and some of them were real from real tombstones. Some I think were imagined. That was just a hook that just kept me going. I love that story.

ANNE: Okay. And I'm inspecting those books for hints of food or wine. Maybe a hint, but not like a looming presence in these.

DEBBIE: Yeah. Yeah.

ANNE: Okay. Okay.

[00:17:59] DEBBIE: That would never be a problem.

ANNE: Okay. I mean, if you could answer the question, what is it about an interesting structure, then you wouldn't need to test your theory. But what has come up for you as you've considered what a distinctive storytelling style, not style exactly. Words are hard, Debbie.

DEBBIE: I know.

ANNE: What is it about the structure that's grabbing you?

DEBBIE: I don't know. I truly don't know. I'm like, I need your help. I'm trying to figure out what it is about this that is working. I don't know. I've wondered, is it just because my brain is lazy and I need some thing to draw me in to keep me entertained? I don't know. I'm not sure.

ANNE: Boards and theories.

DEBBIE: Okay.

[00:18:56] ANNE: You have read a... This is not diagnosis. These are hypotheses. You have read a ton of books, and you are curious about new ways to tell familiar stories. Up, down, yes, no, zero to 10 scale?

DEBBIE: I love that. That's probably a strong contender, nine. Nine out of 10.

ANNE: Okay. Hypothesis: you enjoy seeing what writers can do on the page. You enjoy good books. You think about what a story is, and these writers have new ways of storytelling that you didn't know were on offer to you, and you're just delighted to see all the ways there are to tell a good story.

DEBBIE: I like that also. Maybe a 7 out of 10.

ANNE: Okay. You enjoy the kaleidoscopic, multifaceted approach that these structural choices are bringing to the page. Because you're not just hearing from one narrator. You're not just inside one person's head. You're not getting the God view either with most of these. You know, although I guess you get a God-view narrator in the mix in some of these books that you really enjoy. But you enjoy seeing a full picture. It gives you a lot to think about, a lot to engage with, a lot to reflect upon during and after the reading experience.

[00:20:25] DEBBIE: Yes. Yes. I think that's very accurate. And I do love novelty, variety. I think that's a piece of it, too. But yes, definitely I love the multi viewpoints and being able to tease out what drives people.

ANNE: I mean, Debbie, we're certainly missing some stuff, and I think as you bring these ideas into your reading experience, even if they're just simmering on the back burner as you're continuing about your reading life, I imagine stuff is going to keep coming up for you. Like, "Oh, this makes sense. That's why I enjoy that. This is why I find this so satisfying." But right now, anything coming up for you?

DEBBIE: Nothing new.

ANNE: You don't have to be sad about it.

DEBBIE: I understand. I feel like...

ANNE: This is just data.

DEBBIE: I feel like I brought this half-baked theory, and now I'm expecting you to do all the research and figure it out, so. Sorry.

[00:21:25] ANNE: No, this is what we do here, in part. Do you feel like you have enough to go on?

DEBBIE: Yeah.

ANNE: Debbie, you mentioned some of the characteristics of books that just work for you, and when we think about, like, a Debbie Day prototypical read, you said quirky, you said interesting structure. For a long time, you thought food and wine connections were a big part of it, which makes me wonder about a multi-sensory element.

Like, I wonder if you enjoy a fully realized world that really has a lot of various supports in becoming multidimensional. The sensory angles: sights, scents... sight, scent, smells. Do you see what I did there?

DEBBIE: Yes. Yes, yes.

ANNE: It sounds weird, but two of those are the same thing. Really strong visual descriptions, like cues in the wording that let you really visualize somebody or feel like you know what their voice is going to sound like. You know, you can see the trees, you can feel the sun on your back, that kind of thing.

[00:22:31] I mean, I wonder if you like books that really come alive, and the structure is one of the tools by which that happens. But I also hear very clearly in what you say you enjoy that the structure is a component, but you're not going to be compelled by a very intellectual, you said no tomes. We'll talk about what that means more in a moment. That might have an interesting structure, but you're not looking for feats of technical brilliance or a performance.

DEBBIE: Correct.

ANNE: I think the structure is serving a purpose, and that is you fully stepping into the world, or that's a theory we're working on right now. Your experience with that theory to affirm or deny it is essential here.

DEBBIE: That makes perfect sense. I would want to understand a little bit... I would want to look at some of my favorite reads and see, but that makes perfect sense.

[00:23:33] ANNE: Okay, Debbie, I have questions. What does quirky mean to you? Tell me about a quirky character.

DEBBIE: Ooh.

ANNE: What's interesting about a quirky character?

DEBBIE: Oh, I love a quirky character. I mean, definitely Bernadette in Where'd You Go, Bernadette is a quirky character. Just complex and doesn't necessarily do things the standard way, makes me see things from someone's perspective that I may not be anything like.

Just as an aside, I have a... My 23-year-old is on the autism spectrum, and I think she has made me just grow to appreciate quirkiness and seeing things in a different way and just opening up that there's ways to see things other than my way. I just love to see that in a character. I love to explore that with a character.

[00:24:41] ANNE: So they don't need to be like the Zooey Deschanel character in a movie?

DEBBIE: No.

ANNE: Okay.

DEBBIE: No.

ANNE: Okay. I mean, intellectually, I know that you're thinking about the world differently than I am. But I'm wondering if a quirky character for you... That's unavoidable. Like, you just know they're living their life... They see things differently. You just know. It's very clear.

DEBBIE: Yes.

ANNE: Okay. Complex, non-standard, and different were my jottings there. You said no tomes. You don't want to read any tomes.

DEBBIE: No.

ANNE: But you love Tata by Valérie Perrin, and that's a pretty hefty book.

DEBBIE: It is.

ANNE: The Only Plane in the Sky, not short. So what's a tome, and what I'm looking for is what kind of books will be welcome and which feel less hospitable to you.

[00:25:36] DEBBIE: I actually am currently reading Tata. It was Fresh Water for Flowers that I read that is a tome, for sure. I definitely gravitate toward a... I say shorter book. It doesn't have to be short. I'm okay with getting really connected with characters over a long period of time, but I think I just like the kind of quick-paced, kind of cut to the chase quickly book. I don't need huge, deep, flowery descriptions of something to feel like I'm connected, to feel like I'm in it, and sometimes those long, flowery descriptions actually kind of lose me, kind of lose interest in that. So definitely shorter, 250 to 400 is probably a sweet spot.

ANNE: Okay. You mentioned in your submission that you're interested in stretching into new genres.

DEBBIE: Yes.

ANNE: Would you tell me more?

[00:26:44] DEBBIE: Yeah. I really do love variety and trying new things and exploring. I've dipped my toe in probably all of the genres at some point, but I'm really fascinated and would love to find things in my non-typical genres, like sci-fi, fantasy, even classics. I would say those are my least comfortable genres, but I would love to find some that kind of test this theory of the structure and see how those land, see if those end up being five-star reads for me.

Also, I'm interested in maybe backlist, older books that might fit this. I tend to gravitate toward newer, buzzy books, but I would also be interested in, you know, some that I wouldn't have trouble finding at the library that fit this new theory.

[00:27:59] ANNE: All right. We are going to see what we can do. Okay, Debbie, you enjoyed Like Water for Chocolate by Laura Esquivel, The School of Essential Ingredients by Erica Bauermeister, and Where'd You Go, Bernadette by Maria Semple. I forgot to ask you about a book that wasn't right for you. This is not the first time I've done that. Debbie, it's not too late. I don't know if you feel like you almost snuck through and got off the hook...

DEBBIE: I did. Actually, I probably need to talk about my least favorite book, you know, a book that did not work for me, because it kind of blows my theory, so do with it what you will.

ANNE: But it sounds very important. Okay.

DEBBIE: It's probably important.

ANNE: What's the book that's not right for you, and we gotta hear why. Not to your taste, was the timing wrong, not what you're looking for right now?

[00:28:57] DEBBIE: I read it a while back, but it sticks out for sure as a DNF for real. Like, serious DNF. Whether I should or shouldn't be embarrassed, it doesn't matter, but back in the Twilight Saga days, I was a huge fan the whole series.

So I was pretty excited to hear about Midnight Sun when it was coming out by Stephenie Meyer. Again, it seems to fit, like, not maybe structure, but the fact that it was going to retell the whole story from a different character's perspective seems like that would be an interesting catch to me. It did not work for me at all. It seemed ridiculous and nonsensical, and I just... It just couldn't go anymore. I probably read three chapters and just couldn't go anymore. So there's that.

[00:29:57] ANNE: Wait, hang on. You think this one book blows your whole theory?

DEBBIE: Well, maybe it doesn't blow my whole theory. I would have thought this would have been the perfect kind of interesting approach that it would work for me, but did not.

ANNE: Okay. Well, that's good to know. Also, because you like books with interesting structures, it doesn't mean you are going to like every book with an interesting structure. Like sometimes readers will come to me and say, "I thought I liked memoir, but I didn't enjoy this." There's so much variety in any category we're talking about in the reading life, and so many other factors. That's what makes books endlessly interesting, and also means that there's no, like, pat formula that's going to deliver a predictable result every time. Sometimes that's frustrating, but mostly we like it that way.

DEBBIE: Yeah. Yeah. You're right. You're absolutely right.

[00:30:52] ANNE: Okay, so the Twilight Saga book, Midnight Sun, not for you, just to pick up where we were. And we talked about some of the other five-star reads that back up your theory, including Fresh Water for Flowers by Valérie Perrin, and The Only Plane in the Sky by Garrett M. Graff. And we are looking for books with interesting structures that I think potentially you could read and see what they're like for you, what you notice. Do they work, and why or why not? And you're interested in branching into new genres.

Now's a good time to remind everyone, sometimes we get emails that say or ask Anne Anything questions that say, "What's the gap between when you're having this conversation and when you recommend the books?" There is no gap. We're just sitting here live with our no-Google policy, giving books to Debbie and... oh, sci-fi and fantasy. I'm sure there's good stuff that fits the bill. I have one in mind, but I wish I had more.

[00:31:53] Readers, you have the advantage of perusal and contemplation and your own bookshelves. Please come over to the comments at whatshouldireadnextpodcast.com and give your recommendations for Debbie. Reading is a group project and a team effort, and it's better that way. So thank you in advance for bringing your recommendations this way.

But Debbie, let's look at titles that could cement your theory. Let's start in what I imagine is a place of comfort for you. Now, you didn't explicitly talk about historical fiction or other works by the authors you enjoy, like Erica Bauermeister, No Two Persons. My goodness, there's an interesting structure. Have you read that one?

DEBBIE: I have.

ANNE: Did it work for you?

DEBBIE: Yeah. I really do enjoy all of her work.

ANNE: And there are other authors who write novels that are told in rotating points of view like that that I think you might find interesting, but I don't believe you're going to love in the same way. I'm thinking anything Joan Silber, for example. We have a blog post on Modern Mrs. Darcy, novels told in short stories.

[00:33:04] Gosh, we could talk about the different kinds of interesting structures, like novels that come full circle, or novels that are told where you go straight through, you meet one narrator, and there's a different narrator the whole book. We could talk about novels that are told only in emails, or only in Slack messages, or written as a play, or a sestina, or a partita coming out this fall. There's all kinds of different interesting structures, and we're not categorizing them today.

I will say, you could read nonfiction about creating an interesting structure. I don't see that appealing to you, but maybe I'm wrong. How does that sound?

DEBBIE: Hmm, that piques my interest, for sure.

ANNE: Okay. Well, the one I'm thinking of is a nonfiction book by John McPhee called Draft No. 4. The reason I'm recommending Draft No. 4 is that one of the essays in it that was originally published in The New Yorker maybe 15 years ago, called Structure, is in this collection.

[00:34:05] But he also has a long career writing nonfiction and teaching nonfiction. And John McPhee is a smart guy. You all may have heard Ginger talk about Oranges, I think, on this podcast. Draft No. 4 might have been the first book-length work I read by him. And I just saw it on the shelf at Politics and Prose for half off many, many years ago and thought, "I've heard of him. I'll try that." But he has an essay in there called Structure.

And something I think's interesting about that essay is he says that a piece doesn't really come to life until he can find the structure that is going to underpin all these thoughts, that while they might not be totally disparate, it can't come to life until he knows the best way to tell it. And he works only in nonfiction, but that doesn't mean that the way of thinking about the shape of a piece doesn't apply.

[00:35:01] Also, something he says in this piece is you're not supposed to notice the structure as a reader. He uses the analogy of the human body and a skeleton. Like, you're not supposed to see my bones, Debbie, and I'm not supposed to see yours. Like something has gone wrong if they are poking through.

But the structure holds everything up. Like it gives it shape and form and makes it look good. In the piece, he talks specifically about one piece that he just felt vexed by until he had the moment of epiphany, which he describes, that made everything fall into place, and then it worked.

But these essays are so smart, but also playful and friendly. Like, "Hey, Debbie, let me tell you some things I've learned about what makes good writing work and what prevented the writing from work." Oh, we talked about books that just work. What prevented the writing from just working until these certain things were implemented. But he talks about how he researches, puts together pieces, and then edits it, ooh, with so many details. Just absolutely fascinating. You might care about the behind-the-scenes.

[00:36:14] And I wonder if one of the reasons you like books with structure is you like to get at all sides of your stories. This is nonfiction, but I wonder if this would be an interesting way to get at all sides of the stories you enjoy reading. It really might not be, but you could learn something about yourself if you wanted to give it a try. That's Draft No. 4 by John McPhee.

Now, the direction I thought we were going to is a place that I thought might be your comfort zone. You know, I suppose, like Like Water for Chocolate, it does happen in a different... I mean, turn-of-the-century Mexican Revolution. Laura Esquivel did not write it at that time, so she's got a... It's not historical fiction like top billing, but that is present. But I was thinking about the historical fiction of Kate Quinn, specifically... Oh, now I'm blanking on the title of the book. What's it called? The Briar Club. Is this a book you're familiar with?

[00:36:54] DEBBIE: I have heard of it. It may even be on my Want to Read list. But tell me more.

ANNE: So Kate Quinn's newest book is in the sci-fi fantasy direction, if that makes your ears perk up. But this book, The Briar Club, is more along the lines of what regular Kate Quinn readers have come to expect from her. This book is set during the McCarthy era in Washington, DC, and it takes place almost entirely in this residence called the Briarwood House that works as a women's boarding house run by a landlord that you are not going to like very much. She is not your likable character in this story, but there are lots of likable characters and quirky characters who live in the house.

[00:37:50] So in the shape of the book, we hear from each of the house's residents in turn, but only once. So every resident has her moment on the stage, and then she leaves, and you find out what happened to her later because you're going to want to know, "Oh my gosh, how does that story end?" You hear it from someone else's point of view, and you learn about what she longs for in 1950s DC and why she's there by herself in a women's boarding house with a not-very-nice landlord, and you learn the secret she's keeping from her housemates.

That might not sound wholly unusual, but the thing I really like is the house weighs in constantly. You hear from the house itself more than once. And the house has its own strong opinions about what happens within its walls. The house has been around longer than any of the residents, so in the opening chapter, it tells you some of its sordid history, and then we see things through until the end.

[00:38:57] So you have that structure. You have interesting characters with strong personalities, which is another way I might interpret quirky, if that doesn't sound too off-base to you. And for readers who enjoy history, mystery, stories of complex relationships, secrets, there's a little bit of a magical vibe going on here, and I mean, a good story well told. How does that sound to you?

DEBBIE: That sounds good, too. Do you know about how long that one is?

ANNE: Okay. I listened to the audiobook, which clocked in at 15 hours, so I'm going to say that's like a 400-pager.

DEBBIE: Okay.

ANNE: It's 432 pages.

DEBBIE: Perfect. I love the idea of the house weighing in.

ANNE: It's fun. Now, this one we talked about on What Should I Read Next?. So it may sound familiar as I describe it, but I'm wondering about One Woman Show by Christine Coulson. Coulson is bringing her background to this work in a strong way. She worked at the Met in New York City for decades, and one of her last jobs there before... You know, I was presuming she quit to write fiction, but that's not necessarily true. But one of her last jobs there was writing the 75-word little wall labels for the museum's new British galleries, you know, like the little curatorial notes that appear alongside each work, and she thought, "You know, what if I wrote a novel in that form?" And that's what this is.

[00:40:35] One Woman Show is the life story of this fictional woman named Kitty Whitaker, and it is told solely through these fictional museum wall labels. It's about a 20th-century woman who utterly transforms herself over the course of her lifetime.

This looks like a 200-page book-length manuscript. There's only 75-ish words on each page. You could read this in one sitting. And if you are a fan of an interesting structure or if you're just a nerd about all the different ways a story can be written, we say nerd with great affection around here, or if you really love art, design, museum stories, this would be a good pick for any of those readers. How does that sound?

DEBBIE: That sounds amazing because, which just popped into my brain, my favorite book as a child was From the Mixed-Up Files of Mrs. Basil E. Frankweiler. It's hard to not-

[00:41:38] ANNE: I'm laughing because it brings me delight to remember that book exists.

DEBBIE: Oh, I love that book. So this, I don't know, like the Met and the... Yeah, this sounds fantastic.

ANNE: Okay. I'm glad to hear it. I'm not sure how you'll think about this one, if this might be t- well, you know what? I don't know what you think, but you're here. You can tell me, Debbie. Have you read Trust by Hernan Diaz?

DEBBIE: No.

ANNE: Okay. This is literary historical fiction. It's a book within a book within a book, and it's told in four distinct parts, and each one, in order, subtly changes the meaning of what came before, subtly changes the meaning of what came before that, and then turns the whole thing on its head in the final section.

This is set in the early 20th century. It centers around the Wall Street crash of 1929 and goes on into the '30s. So part one is a biographical novel based on the life of an infamous Wall Street trader who, unlike everyone else, basically flourished after the market crash of 1929.

[00:42:46] Part two is an unfinished draft of the autobiography the trader began writing with the help of a ghostwriter to correct the manuscript we just read in part one. Part three is the ghostwriter's story about writing that story, and part four I cannot tell you, because that would be a huge spoiler, but it just blows up the whole thing.

Now, I wonder what you'll think about the emotional tone, but strong characters, interesting characters. Is there a likable character? There's a wry detachment in much of this, but yeah, I think you'll enjoy hanging out with some of these people. You really won't like others, but you're not supposed to.

There are diary excerpts in the story, which makes me think about your love for epistolary writing. But this is one of those books where every time you think you know the story, whoops, you get new information that changes it entirely. How is this sounding?

DEBBIE: That sounds excellent also. I love that.

[00:43:47] ANNE: All right. Now, I am sorry to say that this is not fantastical in any way, but Hernan Diaz's next work is. Somehow in my mind that feels like it helps with the genre thing. It does not. It really does not at all. Okay, let's do two more for some variety.

DEBBIE: Okay.

ANNE: I didn't expect to camp out so much in the historical space, but that's where we are. There's a new memoir out called Troika by Irena Smith. Is this a book you're familiar with?

DEBBIE: It's not.

ANNE: Okay. Listeners, we read this in Modern Mrs Darcy Book Club in September. If you're thinking, "Why have I heard of that?" This is a short memoir that you could read very quickly. It unfolds over the course of a weekend, road trip, actually, and it's a multi-generational tale of three women in one family. One is in her early 20s, one is right about 50, and one is in her 70s. Grandmother, mother, daughter.

[00:44:40] The middle generation is the narrator, and they're going on a road trip, and you are going to hear why, where are they going, what are they up to, what are they doing, but in a way that I have not mapped. I wonder what Irena Smith's outline looks like for this book, or what her chart of scenes on the wall looks like.

But what they are going on is their own sort of odyssey. She is constantly name-checking The Odyssey and many works of classics and ancient literature constantly throughout the story, not just in reference to her love of literature, but also referencing her own life and history.

This is an immigrant story. Her parents, her mother in the car with her, came to the US when she was young, like in grade school. They moved to California. And she talks about growing up between those two worlds and navigating their new world and what that was like, and the stories that were told about the Russian homeland, and going back and forth culturally.

[00:45:53] To give you an idea of the tone of this story, The White Lotus season 2 is also constantly referenced in this story and used as a storytelling device. And this book spoils The White Lotus season 2 and its ending. So readers and Debbie, take note. That is what you're in for. But I wonder if you would enjoy this ride in the car that, in one sense, has a tight chronology. They get in the car, they go for the weekend, they come back, but on the other, wanders all over the place with the help of ancient literature and The White Lotus season 2. How's that sounding?

DEBBIE: That sounds really good, too. I love the nod to the classics and relevant cultural stories. I like that. I like that a lot.

ANNE: Okay, I'm glad to hear it. And we are going to close with a book that I've talked about on the podcast before, but not for a while. I just checked. It's Lovely War by Julie Berry. Have you read this one?

DEBBIE: I have not.

[00:47:00] ANNE: Okay. This is a lot of fun, and this is one of those books that I've heard a lot from readers, "I didn't think that was the book for me, but oh my gosh, I'm so glad I found it." This is historical fantasy that combines a World War I story, a love story, and Greek mythology. The structure is unlike anything I've ever read because in the opening chapter, Aphrodite and Ares, like yes, the Greek gods, walk into a swanky Manhattan hotel during World War II, and soon enough, Aphrodite's husband, Hephaestus, challenges her to show him what love really looks like.

So they're placing a bet on the mere mortals, as the gods want to do. So she says, "Have I got something to show you." And in intercut scenes, she takes the reader back in time to meet four young lovers in 1917 Britain, and she walks us through how each couple fell in love, what they mean to each other, the obstacles in their way, how love is going to win out. So we have these poignant scenes set in 1917, and then we're whooshed back to the Manhattan hotel where the gods are fighting over and over and over again. How's that sounding?

[00:48:19] DEBBIE: That also sounds intriguing. I love the Greek mythology nod. I love that.

ANNE: All right. Debbie, we'll recap, readers, for the books we put on Debbie's plate, but how are you feeling about your interesting structure theory?

DEBBIE: I think you have nailed it. I mean, everything that you've recommended feels like it's totally on spot for the challenge, the interesting structure, and they all sound great. They all sound good.

ANNE: All right. Now it's up to you to road test it. I'll be curious to hear how it goes. The books we talked about today: John McPhee's Draft No. 4, The Briar Club by Kate Quinn, One Woman Show by Christine Coulson, Trust by Hernan Diaz, Troika by Irena Smith, and Lovely War by Julie Berry. Debbie, what sounds good? What do you think you might pick up next?

[00:49:18] DEBBIE: I mean, truly, truly, I think I'll probably tackle them all eventually. They do sound perfect. I think it's a toss-up between One Woman Show and Trust. I don't know. If I had to pick between those two, I could only pick one, which one would you recommend?

ANNE: I don't know, but here's how I would decide. I'd ask myself, do I want an encapsulated reading experience? Because One Woman Show, truly, you will get through very, very quickly. That's going to be over and done. Trust will be a multi-day journey, perhaps multi-week journey for some readers. So I would just let that decide, instead of weighing any other merits of the books. I don't know if you like to let the library decide, if you want to look for something good on audio. I listened to Trust on audio, it was phenomenal. I think I'd want to look at One Woman Show. So if any of those factors help you decide very quickly in a way that doesn't feel as much like a value judgment.

[00:50:26] DEBBIE: Yeah. Well, that's actually perfect because I usually have a book and an audio going at the same time, so I'll do both of those at the same time. I love it.

ANNE: Okay. Debbie, this has been a delight. Thank you so much for talking books with me.

DEBBIE: This has been so much fun, just like a dream come true. Super fun. I, also just if you don't mind, want to say one thing in light of last week's loss. I just think you should know, I see you as the Dolly Parton of the reading world. I do. I just think you are warm and kind and super smart, but not like this intimidating way, and you just bring joy to people.

ANNE: Aw, that is the kindest. Thank you so much.

[00:51:11] DEBBIE: Well, thank you. This has really been a pleasure.

ANNE: Hey readers, I hope you enjoyed my conversation with Debbie, and I'd love to hear what you think she should read next. Find Debbie on Instagram @debbielday, and find the full list of titles we talked about today at whatshouldireadnextpodcast.com.

Find us on Instagram and tag us in your reading posts and stories @whatshouldireadnext. My personal account is @annebogel.

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[00:52:13] Thanks to the people who make this show happen. What Should I Read Next? is created each week by executive producer Will Bogel, Media production specialist Holly Wielkoszewski, social media manager and editor Leigh Kramer, community coordinator Brigid Misselhorn, community manager Shannan Malone, and our whole team at What Should I Read Next? and Modern Mrs. Darcy HQ. Plus the audio whizzes at Studio D Podcast Production.

Readers, that's it for this episode. Thanks so much for listening. And as Rainer Maria Rilke said, "Ah, how good it is to be among people who are reading." Happy reading, everyone.