Remarkable stories that demand to be told

[00:00:00] ANNE BOGEL: Hey readers, I'm Anne Bogel and this is What Should I Read Next?. Welcome to the show that's dedicated to answering the question that plagues every reader, what should I read next? We don't get bossy on this show. What we will do here is give you the information you need to choose your next read.

This week we're sharing a wonderful conversation with authors Marie Benedict and Victoria Christopher Murray, who you may know from their best-selling novels The Personal Librarian and The First Ladies.

One of my favorite things about our Modern Mrs. Darcy Book Club is our conversations with beloved authors. So today I am thrilled to share our conversation that happened in that community with Marie Benedict and Victoria Christopher Murray.

[00:01:00] We today in this episode are giving you a peek inside what happens in MMD Book Club and we hope you enjoy the glimpse behind the curtain.

They are joining us to discuss their debut co-written work The Personal Librarian, all about the fascinating life of Belle da Costa Greene. I will admit I did not know anything about Belle's life prior to the publication of this book, nor had I been to New York City's renowned Morgan Library, but Belle da Costa Greene, the personal librarian of the title, was crucial to its existence and current collection.

Belle was born Belle Marion Greener to a prominent African-American family. Her father was Harvard's first Black graduate and a noted attorney and activist in his day. When her parents separated, Belle's mother Genevieve moved Belle and her siblings to New York City, where the family decided to pass as White and change their last name to Green. Belle later added da Costa to her professional name to substantiate the family's Portuguese ancestry.

[00:01:58] This was the backdrop for Morgan's hiring Belle as his personal librarian, where she would enjoy great and nearly unprecedented power as curator of his precious personal art collection. This collection became the public Pierpont Morgan Library in 1924. Belle served as its director until 1948.

We get the whole story in this book. It's gripping, fast-paced biographical fiction. And if you enjoy audiobooks as I do, maybe you'd like to know that it's narrated by fan-favorite Robin Miles, which definitely influenced my opting for the audiobook the first time.

In this conversation, Marie and Victoria join me, our Modern Mrs. Darcy Book Club community manager Ginger Horton, our book club co-host Shannan Malone, and a whole bunch of our book clubbers in this live conversation.

Marie and Victoria's friendship was so warm and evident on the screen. It was wonderful to be in the same Zoom room with them.

And there was lots to share. We chatted about why seasoned historical fiction author Marie wanted a co-author for this story, and why she wanted it to be Victoria. Then we hear about how Victoria put off reading Marie's three-page J. P. Morgan pitch in her email for too long, but how the two finally came together as partners.

[00:03:07] They share all the nerdy writing process details, like how they worked as co-authors and partners, and why they chose to write in the first-person present tense. I really liked that answer. And we get to hear what they're working on right now. And those books they discuss are hitting shelves right now, in this season.

Marie's new book, The Queens of Crime, is out February 11th, and Victoria's new book, her first solo-written historical novel, is called Harlem Rhapsody, and it's out February 4th.

With those new books out now, right now feels like the perfect opportunity to revisit our earlier conversation with this powerhouse writing duo. Whether you've read The Personal Librarian already, or whether you weren't even thinking about it before today, I think you'll really enjoy today's spoiler-free discussion and will be tempted to pick it up if you haven't already.

We edited this conversation so we could air it as an audio-only podcast and share it with all of you, but you may hear references to Book Club members during the interview. That's because, while our members aren't on video during these events, they do participate actively during the conversations in the chat. They're asking questions, they're chatting with our book club hosts and each other.

[00:04:11] Now, if our book clubbers can't make it live, we do record everything so they can watch it later, but what you are hearing is the audio from this live conversation.

If you enjoy hearing from favorite and new-to-you authors and would enjoy more of this in your reading life, we would love for you to join us in Modern Mrs. Darcy Book Club, where we frequently host events that help us read better together. Everything from author talks like these to community readalongs and book journaling sessions and classes like How to Write a Book Review or Greek Mythology for Readers, find out more and join us at ModernMrsDarcy.com/club.

Now, let's get to it.

Well, we were just getting started. So, we were just saying that we were a bunch of nerds who love to hear how the books we love to read get written, and we're so looking forward to hearing everything about this experience and your perspective on Belle.

So, even if you covered it in the author's note, which, friends, if you have not read that yet, dig in. Do not miss it. We are really excited to hear more today.

[00:05:16] Shannan, do you want to start us off?

SHANNAN MALONE: Yeah. I was not aware of Belle Green until you wrote this book, and I have such a personal affinity to go into it. I've talked about it with the MMD community. I won't go into it particularly here because we want to hear from you guys.

But I went down the rabbit hole once I found out, and I wanted to know what was that like with both of you. Marie, when did you first hear about Belle? And like Anne said, we know you included some of it, but more is good. More is good.

MARIE: Sure. I mean, how far back into my past do we have to go, and also how I have to date myself, but I first... So, I was a commercial litigator in New York City for over a decade before I started writing books. And I was not really meant to be a lawyer, right? This is what I was meant to be doing.

[00:06:19] So I would sneak out during my law days and visit the cultural institutions in New York City. That is where I first came across Belle da Costa Greene. That's what you asked about, right, Belle? Sorry, I'm still like-

SHANNAN: Yeah.

MARIE BENEDICT: Okay. At that time, the Morgan Library, where I used to love to kind of scamper off and envision a different world, at that time, the Morgan Library, which as Victoria can tell you, and as we're going to see again in a couple weeks, is one of the most exquisite places, really, libraries in the world.

At that time, there really wasn't a lot of mention or reference to Belle. But I happened to come across one of the docents finishing up a tour when I came on one day, and she mentioned that this incredible institution, which was not just stunning, it's also one of the world's best collections of rare and priceless books and manuscripts, was not just created by the famous financier J. P. Morgan, it was also created by a woman.

[00:07:30] And she mentioned Belle for the first time, and I just became enamored with this idea of her. That you know, here we are talking early 1900s, Gilded Age, and there's a woman in charge of this magnificent, powerful collection, who goes on to become one of the most powerful people in general in the art world.

I kind of had her in my mind for a long time, and as the years went on, I kind of researched her more. And during that time period, her true identity became known. It wasn't known when I first learned of her. Her identity as a Black woman, passing as White, daughter of incredible advocate, you know, first Black graduate of Harvard, advocate for equality, Richard Greener, she had to hide all of this incredible heritage, upbringing, in order to pass as a White woman and succeed in this role.

[00:08:28] And I knew then that, oh my goodness, like, not only was her story remarkable, it was absolutely necessary that people know it, and that I needed an incredible partner to tell it with me.

SHANNAN: So Victoria, when did you first hear about Belle da Costa Greene?

VICTORIA CHRISTOPHER MURRAY: Yes. So Marie just told you how she needed a partner. So I received a, what was it, like a three-page synopsis from my agent. My agent did not say anything about Belle da Costa Greene, my agent didn't say anything about anything except, there's an author out there who may want to do a project with you.

So I first looked up the author, because I didn't know Marie Benedict, and I saw that she wrote these wonderful novels about women who've been lost in the folds of history, and I said, "Well, what does it have to do with me?" Because I'm a contemporary writer, and this is historical. So I was a little confused with that.

[00:09:34] Then I saw a picture of Marie, and I wondered if she had ever seen a picture of me. I was like, "Maybe she was looking for a different Victoria Christopher Murray." Then it still, though, took me a little bit of time to read the synopsis, because the first couple of paragraphs was about J. P. Morgan and the finance. And I just wasn't interested in him.

And I kept putting it aside, reading it, and putting it aside. And my agent kept saying, "Have you read it? Have you read it? Have you read it?" And I was like, "Oh, I'm busy." About three months later, she said, "Nobody is too busy to read three pages." So I read the first page, and I was like, "I don't really care about J. P. Morgan. He could just go away."

Then the second page got more interesting. It was about Belle da Costa Greene and who she was. So I said, "Well, that's interesting, but still not any connection."

[00:10:31] And it was almost like I always say that Marie hit the lead, because it was at the very end where she said, "and no one knew that Belle da Costa Greene was Black until she passed away." I was like, "We could have saved three months and three pages if we had just started there."

MARIE: Obviously, that's my best writing.

VICTORIA: No, it's your good writing. It's good writing. She just knows how to do a great buildup. And reading is fundamental, and I was not doing my fundamental part. And so I couldn't get to the telephone fast enough. Our agents connected us right away. I was away someplace at that time. I remember being in a hotel room talking to Marie, and I said, Hello, she said, hello. That was it. We connected immediately. And over these years, seriously, she's my sister. Even up to last night, she was talking to me, texting to me like a sister.

[00:11:34] MARIE: Like midnight.

VICTORIA: Yeah. Get some stuff out of your head, girl. That kind of talk. That's the kind of talk we have.

MARIE: Oh, yeah. And I will say that very first phone conversation we had, I had it in the car with a good friend of mine who very kindly agreed to come with me on some events out of town, which as Victoria can attest, are not always the most glamorous travel situations.

And so we were in a car driving from one place to the next, and Victoria and I had our very first call together. And when we hung up, my friend, who'd been very kindly chauffeuring me around while I'm on this call, said, "How long have you guys known each other? Like since college?" And I was like, "No, that was our first actual conversation." We just clicked right from the start.

VICTORIA: Yeah. Right from the start.

SHANNAN: Amazing. What was the research like then for both of you? You both went to the Morgan Library. We saw that on GMA. You said you had gone several occasions. I'm so jealous. We have people in the chat who've been like, did you get to touch any of the treasures that Belle put her hands on? Like, serious.

VICTORIA: Yeah.

[00:12:49] MARIE: I mean, well, I used to go there, as I said. Like I've been there many, many, many times. So I'm very familiar with the institution itself and certainly what they had collected even before I knew who Belle was, right?

The thing about Belle that's interesting and challenging and part of the whole story really is that, just like in the book, on her deathbed, she burned all of her personal papers and she asked everyone in her life to do the same. And everybody did. So the paper trail is very scant with one notable exception.

If you've read the book, this will not surprise you, but Bernard Berenson chose to not follow Belle's wishes, no surprise, and he kept them all.

Now, part of me wants to be angry at him because he was a cat in life and a cat in death. But the reality is, is that thankfully he didn't because those letters are really the bulk of what we know about Belle.

[00:13:58] Now, unfortunately, most of those letters until very recently were in... Bernard Berenson had left the villa in Florence where he lived most of the time to Harvard. And he left all the things that were inside it, including those manuscripts or those letters, excuse me. And so that was the only way you could actually see them was to actually go to Florence or outside of Florence and examine them in person. They're fragile. I did have a trip scheduled to go and see them and COVID came. So that put an end to that.

Victoria and I were very, very fortunate in that the woman who wrote the incredible biography of Belle da Costa Greene, Heidi Ardizzoni, she had excerpted and referenced many, many of those letters in her book. And we were fortunate to have access to those.

But that wasn't the extent of the research. We had documentation from Richard T. Greener, a bunch of his letters had been found. There are biographies of him. There are certainly still professional letters that exist from Belle in the Morgan Collection that we are able to see, but the personal things.

[00:15:09] Now I will say as part of the Morgan Library's centennial celebration, they are digitizing those letters. So anybody will be able to see them, which I think will be such a fascinating exercise for people who enjoy the book to see the way in which these two people spoke to each other.

VICTORIA: Yeah. And Belle wouldn't really want us reading these letters because she had asked them to be burned. And so I feel horrible about the fact that I'm going to read every single one.

MARIE: Pour over them in great detail.

SHANNAN: I mean, she didn't really know the change that essentially would come. So that's-

VICTORIA: Yeah, she didn't know. And I'm glad you said that, Shannan, because I think, you know, people ask, why did she burn the letters? Of course we don't know why, but we can extrapolate from what we do know and just feel like one of the lines that Marie and I wrote now in the book together was she didn't want a Black in the left legacy.

[00:16:08] She did not know the progress that would be made and she was afraid, we believe, in our view of her that it wouldn't be respected as much anymore if it was discovered that a Black woman had put together that collection.

SHANNAN: Go ahead, Anne.

ANNE: I'm asking Caroline's question because it's timely. You all talk about this in the book, I believe, but I'd love to hear it. You all tell it in your better narrative, interesting personal description. How was Belle's identity finally discovered? Her true identity, that is.

VICTORIA: So there were two ways. Marie, you want to talk about the first way and I'll talk about that?

MARIE: Yeah. So, you know, there was always speculation about her identity. You know, even during her lifetime, there were rumors, there were... There were lots of articles written about Belle. And to your question earlier about what kind of research we did, there's lots of newspaper articles and magazine profiles. I mean, she was this exciting anomaly. Right?

[00:17:21] And sometimes in those articles, you'll see something like the exotic Belle da Costa Greene. And you know that they're saying without saying like, Well-

VICTORIA: Mm-hmm. What is that?

MARIE: So certainly that was out there, but it wasn't confirmed until there was a biography being undertaken on J. P. Morgan. Certainly, people knew about the close relationship between JP and Belle. And it was in the course of that research that in some census documents, you know, people going back into time and tracing Belle's family as kind of her name change from Greene to Greener and her description and the census changed from White to colored that that clear relationship was established.

And of course, the one thing that Belle could never, once she passed, started passing, let people know was that her father was Richard Greener because he was very well-known and he was a very well-known Black man. So that was something she couldn't allow.

[00:18:27] VICTORIA: And then not too long afterwards they discovered lots of Richard T. Greener's papers in a building that was going to be abandoned in Chicago. So some of those papers have gone... I think it's been a lot of fights over those papers because it was a small entrepreneur who discovered them. So it had gone to the different schools when they were able to have that too and start bringing two and two together.

SHANNAN: What time or year was this happening? You may have said it and it slipped past me, but what-

VICTORIA: What decade?

SHANNAN: I think decade. Thank you.

MARIE: Oh, okay.

VICTORIA: I think with Richard, it was in the 90s. Is that correct, Marie?

MARIE: Yeah. I think the biography was late 90s, early 2000s.

VICTORIA: Yeah. The biography didn't come out until 2007.

[00:19:24] MARIE: 2007. Okay. The speculation had kind of been out there and there were some articles where it was questions raised, but that real confirmation didn't come until later. It didn't come until, you know, after I first came across her.

VICTORIA: Can I add just one last thing?

SHANNAN: Sure.

VICTORIA: And Marie and I haven't even had a chance to talk about this because it was a recent... on the Today Show, they did something with Belle and who she was, but there was a lot of speculation about what Belle was. But I'm not convinced that there was speculation that she was Black. I think they were saying she's Cuban, she has tropical roots.

So I'm not convinced because I think Black and White was so separate. She certainly couldn't have been a Black woman as educated and flamboyant. But what was she?

[00:20:23] And so there may have been some people wondering if she was Black. I don't think so, especially with something we just saw on the Today Show where one of J. P. Morgan's descendants was asked, and I think it was like his great, great grandson was asked, do you think he knew? Do you think J. P. Morgan knew? And this is one of his relatives saying, I would bet not.

MARIE: Right. That's a question that we had asked ourselves a million times. So it was fascinating for us to see the family answer it themselves.

VICTORIA: Yes. And Marie, you and I haven't talked about it, and we guessed the way he did. So when I saw that, I cheered, you know?

MARIE: Our fictional guess was correct. Because of course, you know, we write fiction. Yes, it's inspired by real people, but it isn't... you know, we don't know what their real story is. We don't know how Belle felt about passing. That isn't recorded anywhere that I've seen. You know, we don't know if JP knew.

[00:21:26] And all of those things, of course, are factors in the story we choose to tell. So, you know, sometimes we're making... You know, yes, we do a lot of research. Yes, we build the story based on the facts and logical extrapolations, but it's fiction. And so it's very rewarding sometimes when our fictional guesses turn out to be true.

SHANNAN: I would like to know, and I know everyone here would like to know, because as we said, we love nitty gritty details, we're nerdy. So how does it work co-writing a book together? Victoria, I know you've done this before. The Personal Librarian is the first co-authored book that we've had in Book Club. So tell us everything.

VICTORIA: How does that work? Because when you read The Personal Librarian, you're not sure it's written by two people, right? It sounds like one voice. And I think that's what we're most proud of with this, that it really is every word that we write, every book we write together.

[00:22:36] And how we do this is... like you said, I've done it before, and Marie hadn't done it before. But as soon as I spoke to her on the phone that first time, I knew we were going to be able to do it. I didn't know if she knew because she hadn't done it. But I totally knew because you need a writing soulmate. You cannot have two people. You can't just choose any two people to write together. You really cannot, because you have to have someone that you totally, totally trust.

And what I mean by that is sometimes you're going to say, Eleanor can't talk to Mary that way. That was a true conversation for our next book. And then I say, yes, she can. I mean, you have to have those kinds of discussions and you have to trust that you're not doing it for your own ego, you're doing it for the best book.

And immediately I knew that I could trust Marie. I knew I'd be able to trust her with my writing, with everything I needed to do, with what I wanted to do.

[00:23:46] So once you have that, then you just go in. Now, it's very interesting because Marie is really an attorney by trade, so she believes in flow charts and very specific, timely... she believes in deadlines. And I think that those are just suggestions. But she's helped bring me along. And I'm the other way. So we actually bring our strengths to each other. That's what we really do.

And so we discuss, of course, the overall arc to the book and everything. And then with The Personal Librarian, we discussed like five, six chapters at a time. And we would totally discuss it, totally discuss everything. Like the chapter was really written by the time the two of us talked it out. And then depending on the chapter, it was really bizarre. This is that soulmate thing again, because we would say, "Okay, I'll take this one." Marie would say, "Okay, I'll take that one."

[00:24:44] Never one time, there was not one time where we said, "No, I want that one." It was like naturally fell into which ones we should write. And we wrote the first draft and then we would switch. And then we would bring in our strengths.

So, for example, it was my first time writing historical fiction. I was a contemporary writer. So there were times when I wanted Belle to say things to J. P. Morgan, like, What's up, dude? And that didn't quite work in early 20th-century language.

MARIE: No.

VICTORIA: Marie has this wonderful week started calling it her magical historical brush. And she could just come in and just brush it. Or one of my strengths is spending a little bit more time on certain situations, because again, Marie's an attorney and she's like, just the facts, ma'am, just the facts.

[00:25:44] In one of those scenes, when it was... I think it was Bernard and Belle for the first time together, Marie's description was a little bare. It was a little loyally, like, you know, they go into the room, they kiss and then it's morning. And I was like, "No, no, no, no, no, we need to tell people what happened the first time." And so then I come in with my little sexual brush. And you know what's so interesting about that?

MARIE: That's new. That's new.

VICTORIA: And Marie is always so quick to let everybody know that I wrote that scene.

MARIE: Well, I'm not known for my sex scenes. Let's just put it that way. They're not really focal points.

SHANNAN: Now I'm curious to go read the rest of Victoria's books. [00:26:41]

MARIE: I have. She's got some-

[00:26:46] VICTORIA: So we bring our strengths to each other. It is really amazing how Marie reached out to me, the one of the greatest blessings of my life, and I'm not saying this because she's here, I say this all the time, and it just fit. We were just the perfect fit.

MARIE: But I mean, we had no idea that that was going to happen. I mean, honestly, it could have gone... I mean-

VICTORIA: Who knew?

MARIE: Right? And how audacious of me. I read one of Victoria's books that I like, Stand Your Ground, I'm like, She's exploring some of the same issues I'm interested in. And she's exploring them from, you know, the perspective of the women and-

VICTORIA: She was like, "Let me send her a letter. Let me write her." It was perfect because we have become so close. Like her mother is one of... I love her mother so much. Her mother will knock down Marie to get to me.

[00:27:50] MARIE: That's not theoretical. And she's a walker. So you know what, she's a weapon.

ANNE: I'm hoping this next question will elicit some more laughter and funny jokes. In chat, people are discussing how they just need a dating app for writers. I'm thinking of what you're all in search of would read mutually. I'm getting a kick out of that internally. But Kat asks, "How did you decide to write the book in first person present tense?" She knows that's somewhat rare and yet something I hear authors say is if you can do it, it puts the reader right in the story, which is how I felt when I was reading it. Victoria, take it away.

VICTORIA: It just puts you right there. And I don't think we ever discussed that, Marie.

MARIE: No.

VICTORIA: I think we both just started writing that way, right?

MARIE: Well, I do all of my solo books first person present tense. And I think we approached it... And I think you do a lot of your books that way.

[00:28:53] VICTORIA: Well, I do a lot of my books... I was doing first person past.

MARIE: Past.

VICTORIA: So this was my first time writing first person present. But one of the gifts that God's given me is I can almost write any way. So we just slipped into it. And I love it, especially for history because I feel like that does put you right there.

MARIE: I mean, honestly, I can't write any other way myself when I'm working on my own stuff. And it's for the exact reason that you just said. It's that it's a very immediate, very present, very introspective as well. So when you're in the scene, you're also experiencing it alongside the character, right? For me as a writer, it's almost like channeling, right?

VICTORIA: Yeah.

[00:29:49] MARIE: And I don't know that I could really write differently. I don't think I could and still inhabit the character in the same way. So when Victoria and I did our second book after this, First Ladies, we did two first person, both present tense, two different characters and brought them along that way, which was, you know, a different writing experience, but equally wonderful.

VICTORIA: And you know, I think you said something, Marie, that I think is so true. We channel these people. And I know that some of the things I'm about to say might sound a little nutty, but we're nutty. You have to be a nut to write anyway.

I remember when I first started speaking to Marie about this book and Marie said that she kind of felt like Belle was in the corner all of these years with her arms crossed, tapping her foot saying, "When are you gonna come to me? When are you gonna come to me? When are you gonna come to me?" And so then Marie said that she felt like she had to find somebody to write this book with.

[00:30:56] Then I remember... I can't remember the scene, but I remember where I was sitting in my office and I like felt Belle right there tapping her foot. And I said to Marie, "Belle came to me. Belle came to me." And I think because we channeled them, they're there in the present.

I remember when we first started working on the First Ladies and I had gone down to Bethune-Cookman and Marie, there's something really interesting. Side note, very quickly, Shannan's grandfather became the president of Bethune-Cookman right after Mary.

MARIE: No way. Come on.

VICTORIA: Yeah way. Yeah, way.

MARIE: [inaudible 00:31:37]

VICTORIA: Yeah.

MARIE: That is so cool. No way.

VICTORIA: That's what I said. I know. But that's a whole nother thing.

SHANNAN: You probably walked past his burial site and there's a statue and everything.

VICTORIA: Yeah, I know. So that's a whole nother... we'll have to come back and talk about that book. We'll have to come back and talk about that book.

[00:31:56] MARIE: Absolutely, because you probably have so many amazing insights.

VICTORIA: I know. I said I wish we had met her while we were writing.

MARIE: That's so cool.

VICTORIA: I went down to Bethune-Cookman and when I came back, I can't remember what chapter I'd written. And as I said, we switch and give out chapters to each other. And Marie called me and she said, "I feel like you have channeled Mary completely." So that's what we do. We do have to. And I think the first person present tense is really them speaking through us.

MARIE: Yeah. I mean, it just helps. It helps. And I'm glad that it resonates with the readers as well. As a writer, it certainly helps bring you there.

SHANNAN: Shavon wanted to know, do you have any writing rituals that maybe you do separately or together?

MARIE: I love Victoria for so many myriad reasons, which I could list. But one of the things that's, I think, amazing about her and us together is that both of us can write anywhere.

VICTORIA: Anywhere.

[00:33:04] MARIE: Literally anywhere.

VICTORIA: Anywhere.

MARIE: I mean, we can be on a plane. We both love to write while traveling, on planes, in hotels, that's a favorite. I think people have this idea that the writer sits at the desk and lights the candle and the muse descends and then we just... and of course it's not like that whatsoever. It's work. It's a lot of work. Victoria and I both can drop into the character or drop into the story, the mindset-

VICTORIA: Anywhere.

MARIE: Wherever. I'm not saying it's easy, but-

VICTORIA: On Amtrak, on the beach.

MARIE: Oh, I love an Amtrak. I love an Amtrak.

VICTORIA: Anywhere.

MARIE: Anywhere my children aren't present asking for me is like, you know... it's like I've been transported to a different world.

SHANNAN: I can relate to that.

VICTORIA: One of our favorite things to do is when we do get together, we're not able to get together very often to write, but get together to... that's one of my favorite things because Marie just laughs. When I'm with her no matter how it is, like I can make her just laugh and laugh. And it's like the best of times.

[00:34:19] But we do serious work too. We're not just... we do. So I do love when we can get together and speak about it. And also, not a ritual, but sometimes when we have a tough scene, I do enjoy some of those moments really well, a lot too, because I learn... people always say that... Marie always is so generous telling people she's learned so much from me racially. She's being very... because I've learned just as much from her. And I think it's important for people to know that.

So whenever anything happens to me racially at all, it has nothing to do with the book, she's my go-to person. She's the person I call. If I'm in Canada and somebody's done a slight, I call her in Pittsburgh. Now I'm in Canada, doesn't matter. She's in Pittsburgh and she can get to me if she needs.

MARIE: I will, if need be. I will be there. Look out.

[00:35:21] SHANNAN: So I'm gonna switch gears a little bit because we've been discussing Passing by Nella Larsen. We watched the screen adaptation with Tessa Thompson. Love her. But in an article, Britt Bennett discusses what she calls the tension within passing stories between the idea of destabilizing race, but then also reaffirming race at the same time. And I sensed that tension in Belle's story and you placed... I feel like you placed in Belle herself. Anne had a question about... Anne, you want to go ahead and ask your question? Yeah, you go ahead.

ANNE: What's my question?

SHANNAN: About Anne-

ANNE: Maybe this will dovetail in. What I'm really wondering is, as Belle is standing in the corner with her arms crossed, tapping her foot, saying, come on, come on, my turn, what does she most want to be on that page? What are the stories, the ideas? What does she want shared about her life and her experience?

[00:36:26] MARIE: Great question.

VICTORIA: Anne, this is a good question. I hope we covered it because that's what we were seeking to do was even though we were telling the story through our eyes, it's still her story. We want to be true to her. And always with any book we write, and I can speak for Marie here, we want to be true to the people. So if they came back and read this book, they'd be pleased.

MARIE: Even if we didn't get it right.

VICTORIA: Yeah, even if we didn't get it right, they'd be pleased.

MARIE: That it honors them.

VICTORIA: It honors them. And I think she would want to know that she did the best that she could with what she had. And I think when it comes to Passing... Marie and I had different goals. I mean, it's the same goal. But the biggest goal for me writing this book was to change Black people's views about passing. That was my biggest goal because, Shannon, as you know, it's so negative. It is so looked down upon in the African-American community.

[00:37:34] And we even had someone, I can't remember her name right now, oh my goodness, on NPR, who interviewed us. And she's like, she had looked at it and she was like, this is another book on passing. And she did not want to read about passing because it's looked down upon. And she said, by the time she finished this book, she had a different view. And I think that's what I would want people to know.

She wasn't passing because she wanted to be White. She was following her mother's ideals so that she would be treated as equal.

MARIE: Right. And I wanted to make sure that people saw the tightrope, people saw the sacrifice, people saw what she had to give up when she gave up her real identity, when she led an inauthentic life. She gave up becoming a mother, gave up having a real marriage, gave up her extended family. And just the daily sacrifice of wearing that mask and what that does to a person.

[00:38:39] Boy, I hope if, you know... I don't know if Belle wanted that on the page, but I hope if she read it, she was like-

VICTORIA: I think that's what she would want. I think that if she was going to be discovered, I think she would want people to... she came from such a rich Black heritage, a rich Black legacy, a family she was proud of and could be proud of. There was no way she couldn't be proud of her father. It would be very difficult for me to believe that she just wanted to leave all that behind because she wanted to be White.

MARIE: No.

VICTORIA: I can never believe that. And so I think she would want this. Like, we don't know. We don't have any way. But she would want, look, if you're going to find me out, then I want you to know this part. And so that's why my objective and Marie's objective was the same, to show the sacrifice. Because a lot of people think, oh, you just pass and it's just easy.

[00:39:45] But when the book opens, remember the brother's sleeping on the couch. They don't have very much money. Belle can't even take the dollar ride from New Jersey to New York very often. They just didn't have very much. So her mother was sacrificing just so her children would be safe.

One of the things that's so interesting about when we wrote this book is we were doing the editing when the world was exploding with race around us. George Floyd had just happened. Marie and I talked to each other, forget about the book, every day to make sure we were mentally safe and emotionally safe.

And one of the things I kept saying to Marie is, "This is what Genevieve... this is why she did it. She didn't want her children to end up on the wrong side of a cop's knee. And this is exactly why she did it.

[00:40:48] SHANNAN: Absolutely. I agree with that so much. And I also think that it allowed Belle, and this, I guess it's kind of like my personal affinity with Belle, is allowed her to explore things that she had interest in and develop this life and this career that without passing, she never would have been able to do. That was fascinating to me.

MARIE: I mean, it's so unusual for a woman to be in these circumstances. I mean, so often she was the only woman in the room. So often she was the only woman at an auction house or bidding for a piece of artwork. And as a Black woman, that would never ever happened. Never.

So she had a gift and her only way of sharing that gift with the world, unfortunately, was to pass. Once that leap was made, which by the way, it wasn't made by her, it was made by her mother, that decision was made by her mother, then everything rested upon it.

[00:42:01] They had constructed lives on this lie. They had married white people. They had jobs in White communities. They lived in a white neighborhood. If Belle was found out, if she fell off that tightrope, if she wasn't the only one she was taking down, she was taking down her whole extended family along with herself. The pressure cooker of it all was just enormous.

VICTORIA: And we felt the pressure cooker as we were writing. There was so many parts and I don't... the timing again, the timing of writing a book about race while race is exploding around you... I think sometimes the words on the pages were deeper because of the emotions.

Marie and I laugh a lot together, but we cried a lot together. You can't get off of a three-hour phone call after crying with someone who you can trust to talk about anything about race and then go write your scenes and not have that emotion show up on the page and not have it be on the page.

[00:43:20] We just wanted to really honor her. And I would bet all the money I have, I don't have very much money, but that we kind of got that part right. I think we got that part right.

SHANNAN: You definitely introduced a lot of people to her story. And I personally, personally am very grateful to learn about her because, like I said, I have such an affinity for her and what she was able to accomplish.

Do you guys have any other collaboration in the works that you can tell us? I mean-

MARIE: We're allowed to say what it is, but of course we do.

VICTORIA: We do. Marie will never get rid of me. This is it. This is it.

MARIE: Hey, even if it was like enough of these co-written books, I'm like-

VICTORIA: Y'all can say what you want. If we buy it just for each other, there's more coming. Well, it'll be just for each other and her mom because I love her mom.

MARIE: Love her. Number one fan on her walker.

[00:44:20] VICTORIA: Yes, we do. We can't tell you yet, but oh my gosh.

MARIE: We can't really tell you the story.

VICTORIA: We're deep in research. I have a really good friend that I've done collaborations with before. ReShonda has a really good ear and eye for books that are gonna be big commercially. And she was trying to figure out a way — and she's one of my best friends — to like eliminate Marie and I from life so she can take the story. Kind of like yellowface.

MARIE: We will not let that happen.

VICTORIA: We will not let that happen. But yeah, we're very excited. Can't wait to be able to talk about it in the next few weeks, probably.

SHANNAN: Okay. And while you're working together, are you working on anything separately or is this all-encompassing?

VICTORIA: I just finished my... Well, this is really good because we're on the same time track now. So we're writing... We write our solo historical fiction projects together at the same time, and then we come back together. So that's really good because I miss Marie so much when I'm writing by myself.

[00:45:29] So I just finished my first solo historical fiction, Marie's in the process right now. It's about the Harlem Renaissance. And there was one woman, only one woman who discovered everybody. Like she discovered Langston Hughes when he was 17, County Cullen when he was 16, everybody. There's not a Harlem Renaissance writer that didn't come through Jessie Redmon Fauset. And we don't even know her name.

MARIE: She's amazing. And the book's amazing.

VICTORIA: She has to say that because she's my sister.

ANNE: When might we be able to read that?

VICTORIA: It'll be out next February.

ANNE: Amazing.

SHANNAN: Do you have a title?

VICTORIA: Yeah. So we have a title for now. I'm pretty sure... Okay, so I haven't even told Marie this. I was gonna text her, because it's coming to me. Okay, we're gonna call it Harlem Rhapsody. So let me ask everybody. Harlem Rhapsody.

MARIE: Rhapsody.

VICTORIA: Huh?

MARIE: Harlem Rhapsody, right?

[00:46:38] VICTORIA: Rhapsody. Harlem Rhapsody.

MARIE: I thought you were gonna tell me a different one.

VICTORIA: No, I was getting ready to say, what if we change it to Rhapsody and Harlem?

MARIE: I have to sit with that one for a little.

VICTORIA: Okay.

SHANNAN: I have to sit with that one.

VICTORIA: So do you like Harlem Rhapsody?

MARIE: Oh, I like Harlem Rhapsody. You know that. But you're not asking me, you're asking these ladies.

VICTORIA: So let me ask you, ladies. Do you like Harlem Rhapsody or do you like The Harlem Muse?

SHANNAN: I like Rhapsody.

MARIE: How about the Muse of Harlem?

ANNE: Well, see, we already know we're gonna read it no matter what. They sound like different kinds of books.

VICTORIA: I'm looking at this thing that we have equal numbers of Harlem Rhapsody and the Muse of Harlem, equal number. Yeah.

ANNE: Just roll the dice.

[00:47:37] VICTORIA: So I guess I can't go wrong with it, right?

ANNE: I'm just real happy you said February 2025 and not, I don't know, maybe someday.

VICTORIA: Oh, no, no, this is on its way. Yeah.

SHANNAN: And Marie, do you have anything?

MARIE: Oh yeah, I have many, many books coming out. I'll have another book coming out probably next January. I am still not allowed to discuss it, but suffice it to say it, like all of my books, which are mission-driven, it talks about a very real-life historical woman, and in this case, a group of women and let's just put it this way, a real-life mystery into which they're drawn, which exposes... it's much more than that actually, but it exposes all these issues about historical women.

[00:48:31] And then I have my first... I'm doing a school... I can't even talk today... a middle school series about the women scientists that I've written about. And I've written about three women scientists, Mileva Marić-Einstein, who's Albert Einstein's first wife, Hedy Lamarr, who was a scientist, and also Rosalind Franklin, who discovered DNA, and then of course, Crick and Watson [inaudible 00:49:00] Nobel Prize, but that's another story.

Anyway, it's a series for middle school readers about each of these women. It kind of brings us right down. So I've got a lot of plates spinning right now. But right now, Victoria and I are back in action. So it's gonna be-

VICTORIA: Yeah, we're back in action. I saw someone, Stephanie, I didn't see her last name. She said that the book should be called Harlem Rhapsody: The True Story of the Harlem Muse, or something like that. That was like-

MARIE: That's both.

VICTORIA: I just saw it.

MARIE: I like that.

[00:49:35] ANNE: We are happy to be your focus group anytime. Anytime.

VICTORIA: Genius. That was genius.

SHANNAN: Anytime. Okay, so our last question is going to be from Ginger, our community manager, who was on earlier, Victoria. She wanted to know if you could make one priceless acquisition for your personal library, what would you seek out?

VICTORIA: Oh, that is a good question.

MARIE: I know what I would.

VICTORIA: You do? I don't know what I would want. You know what's so interesting? I have an idea. I would want something that belonged to either Belle, Mary McLeod Bethune, or Eleanor.

MARIE: I would love... Or all three. Wouldn't that be good?

VICTORIA: Or all three. Something from all three.

MARIE: I love that.

VICTORIA: I know that.

[00:50:33] MARIE: I love that.

VICTORIA: I know that. I don't know what it would be, but oh my gosh, I'd love that.

MARIE: That would be very cool. I went totally rogue. I would go with the Dead Sea Scrolls.

VICTORIA: Oh.

MARIE: Which actually, you know, have the earliest versions of the Bible in them.

VICTORIA: I mean, that would have been a good thing for me to say too.

ANNE: I think Belle would respect all those choices.

MARIE: And I am so sorry, I have to hop off.

VICTORIA: Yes, you go.

ANNE: We told you. Thank you so much for hopping on.

MARIE: [inaudible 00:51:11] the party and early to the party, but thank you so much for having us. It's been a delight.

VICTORIA: Go, go, go, Marie. Go, Marie, bye. I'm so glad she got on, because we weren't sure she was going to be able to make it. And she's one of my favorite people in the world. You probably couldn't tell, but she's one of my... oh my gosh. Even when she's yelling at me, like she was last night, but…

ANNE: In love, I'm sure.

[00:51:39] VICTORIA: Yes. Oh yeah, yeah. She got me out of my own head, so yeah.

ANNE: Friends do that. Yeah. Victoria, are you reading anything good? I think Shannan said last question, but I couldn't resist.

VICTORIA: Yeah. I'm reading a book that's not out yet, but I'm reading it for a blurb, to give a blurb. And it's called The Trial of Mrs. Rhinelander. Have you ever heard of that, the Rhinelander case? R-H-I-N-E-L-A-N-D-E-R. It was in 19... because it makes a little appearance in the book that I just finished. 1925. The Rhinelanders were as prominent as the Rockefellers and the Astors, and just very Vanderbilts. And the son married a colored woman. But he ended up suing her for an annulment saying he didn't know she was colored. She said, "You knew, you saw me naked."

[00:52:47] And it turned into the trial of... that was the biggest scandal. But the worst part of it was they brought her into court and in front of a White male jury, they made her strip to the waist there. And then she actually won the case because when they saw her naked, they were like, Oh, he knew. It's a real case. It's a real horrible situation. They made her... Anne still looks stunned.

ANNE: I don't have any words for that.

SHANNAN: And it happened more than once. Like not in court. But they would strip women. I had never heard that. I don't know if they were referring to this particular case, but I had heard that women who were passing would sometimes be subjugated to a strip search to verify that she was White.

[00:53:51] VICTORIA: Yeah. And this wasn't even a strip search. This was evidence.

SHANNAN: Right.

VICTORIA: And she had to strip to her waist and stand in front of a jury of men and just be reduced to that. She won the case, which is so bizarre. I mean, the whole thing is bizarre, but it was real. So I'm reading the historical fiction of that right now. So I know what that part's coming up and it's kind of tough. Just as a woman, as a woman. I don't care about Black, White. I don't. As a woman that you felt that, you know... I don't want to get political, but we're losing rights today. So what the heck? Why am I surprised at something in 1925? So that's what we are. That's what I'm reading right now.

[00:54:55] ANNE: We'll include that and all the books we talked about in our replay notes. Don't y'all worry.

SHANNAN: Well, it was such an honor to have you with us.

VICTORIA: This was one of my favorites... We do a lot of these. This is one of my favorites. So I'm going to demand that I be asked back. I demand it right now.

ANNE: She demanded, I guess we have to, guys.

VICTORIA: That's right.

SHANNAN: Hey.

ANNE: Oh, it's mutual.

VICTORIA: This was one of my favorite talks. My goodness. And I don't know if it was because we've never done one with two moderators. It really did feel like we were just all chatting, you know.

ANNE: Coffee time. Oh, thank you so much for joining us. This is a pleasure.

VICTORIA: Thank you.

ANNE: We're so glad we got to meet you on Zoom.

VICTORIA: Yes, and thank you everyone for coming. So many people came in the middle of the day. So I really appreciate that.

[00:55:54] ANNE: And if you're going to watch this later, we're thinking of you.

VICTORIA: Okay, thank you.

ANNE: Thank you so much, Victoria.

VICTORIA: Thank you.

ANNE: Hey readers, I hope you enjoyed today's conversation with Marie and Victoria, brought to you by Modern Mrs. Darcy Book Club. Find Marie and Victoria at their websites. We have all those links, the full list of titles we talked about today, and details on MMD Book Club at our show notes page. That's at whatshouldireadnextpodcast.com.

Today, I want you to know that we have a Modern Mrs. Darcy Book Club Instagram account run by our community manager, Ginger. You can check that out at MMD for Modern Mrs. Darcy, MMD Book Club.

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Thanks to the people who made this episode happen. What Should I Read Next? is created each week by Will Bogel, Holly Wilkoszewski, and Studio D Podcast Productions. Readers, that is it for this episode. Thanks so much for listening. And as Rainer Maria Rilke said, "Ah, how good it is to be among people who are reading." Happy reading, everyone.