Welcome to Three Pines, with Louise Penny

[CHEERFUL INTRO MUSIC]

ANNE: Hey, readers, I'm Anne Bogel and this is What Should I Read Next?.

Welcome to the show that's dedicated to answering the question that plagues every reader: What Should I Read Next?

We don't get bossy on this show: What we WILL do here is give you the information you need to choose your next read.

Today I'm talking with one of our most loved, most recommended authors, and I can't wait to share our conversation with you.

[MUSIC]

ANNE: Readers, 2022 is coming to a close and we will soon shift to sharing New Year's reading stories. But first, we've got a few weeks of holiday fun still ahead. If you're on the hunt for great gifts for the readers in your life, check out our 2022 Modern Mrs. Darcy Gift Guide. This guide is filled with delightful ideas for book lovers, with an emphasis on the independent shops and creators we love.

Whether you find the perfect present for your loved ones or something to treat yourself to that catches your eye, I hope it will help you bring extra bookish delight to your holiday shopping this season. See the guide at modernmrsdarcy.com/gifts.

I want to say a big thank you to all of you who recently filled out our guest submission form with your New Year's goals and special reading projects. I wish I could talk to each and every one of you. Rest assured that members of our team read every single submission with attention and care.

If you'd like to join me on the show to talk about your reading life, fill out our submission form. It's at modernmrsdarcy.com/guest. We are always looking for a broad spectrum of voices to feature and you might be just the reader for an upcoming episode.

We're currently planning shows that will begin airing in March. Share with us your unique reading challenge or reading life question by filling out that guest submission form at modernmrsdarcy.com/guest. Many readers tell us that filling it out is interesting and therapeutic. Kind of like taking a personality quiz. Again, that's modernmrsdarcy.com/guest.

Readers, we're really excited about today's conversation, not only because our team loves this author, but because we know how much you do. Many of you know and love Louise Penny for her inviting and addictive inspector Gamache's mystery series set in the quaint village of Three Pines in Quebec.

The 18th installment of the series, A World of Curiosities, is out today. But before you curl up in your favorite chair to crack open those fresh pages and step into Three Pines once again, listen in on this conversation with the Three Pines creator herself.

I am delighted to welcome Louise Penny to the podcast. I hope our conversation today makes you feel like you've grabbed a mug of Cafe Au Lait and pulled up a chair in the bistro for a good chat with a beloved friend. Let's get to it.

Louise, welcome to the show.

LOUISE: Thank you, Anne.

[00:03:07]

ANNE: Oh, it's a pleasure to talk today. We have so many avid fans in our audience who call themselves Penny pushers. I'm sure that's not new to you. [LOUISE LAUGHS] But just because they push your books on everyone they know.

LOUISE: As long as it's not Penny pinchers, we're fine.

ANNE: I'll make sure they know that. [LOUISE CHUCKLES] I'm a longtime reader of the Armand Gamache series. I have to tell you, I called him Gamache for years and I have repented seeing the error of my ways. But the French Canadian setting is a little foreign to this Kentucky and I love it for that.

What won me to this series, what convinced me to pick up the books for the first time and start at the beginning was Still Life. I put the most stock in recommendations from readers I know, whose taste I know, and whose taste I trust.

And just the diversity of readers telling me that I had to read these Gamache books was so impressive. I heard it from friends who read three books a year at the beach, and I heard it from my extremely intellectual, professorial, scholarly friends who all said, "You have to read Still Life." And so I had to give it a try. And I've been reading it ever since.

LOUISE: How long ago was that, would you say?

ANNE: I remember that I was primed and ready for Book Seven when it came out. So this was about 2010-ish

LOUISE: Yeah. So you're a pretty early adopter. Well done.

ANNE: But now the series has been going such a long time. And we have listeners here who have read every book and can't wait to read the one coming out today, and then listeners who have seen your books at the bookstore.

What I want to know is, how do you describe this series at this point to someone who is unfamiliar with Armand Gamache and the world of Three Pines?

LOUISE: You know, that's a great question. I always think that I should have a succinct, thoughtful, intelligent, riveting answer, and I always end up going blah, blah, blah, blah. You know, you'd think after living with it for 20 years I would know what it's about. [BOTH LAUGHS]

ANNE: I think you know far too much to answer it succinctly.

LOUISE: I think you're right. I think that's part of the problem I get, it's kind of a roadblock in my head with all the different avenues and explanations. Basically, it's set in Quebec and very proudly so and very specifically so. Although when I first tried to sell the first book, Still Life, the answer I got my time and again is that no one would be interested in a crime novel set in Canada, never mind in Quebec, I didn't know what to say to that.

It seemed wrong. But these publishers, maybe they know more than I do. But I love reading about different territories, different languages, different cultures, and literary tourism. As you were saying, you live in Kentucky. Quebec is exotic as Kentucky is to Quebec. And that's how we learn tolerance and acceptance and openness to other ways of life, other ways of viewing the world.

So the books are set in Quebec, a small village called Three Pines, which is a fictional village, that follows the investigations of the head of homicide for the Sûreté du Québec, Armand Gamache, Chief Inspector.

And while they're very proudly and clearly crime novels, they aren't really about the crime. The crime is really the Trojan horse that allows me and the readers who come along to really explore other issues of belonging, of what happens when you're shunned, loneliness of love, of friendship, all sorts of things, and sometimes very, very difficult issues that I don't necessarily know the answer to. And that makes it all the more interesting to explore.

[00:06:26]

ANNE: Louise, this new book that is out is book 18, A World of Curiosities. At this point, 18 books is a lot of books. Readers are always asking me, should I start at the beginning or can I jump in anywhere? I'm so curious to your answer to that question.

But as I was reading A World of Curiosities, it felt like this new book is intentionally hospitable to those who might be entering this series for the first time. I would love to hear more about what you had in mind when it comes to welcoming readers into the world of Three Pines.

LOUISE: When I write a book, I'm very aware that it has to be—I mean, your word is great—hospitable to new readers. I think it's unfair to expect anyone who's just discovering my books to read 17 books in preparation. [BOTH LAUGHS] So there has to be enough of a backstory so people know who the characters are, and the development, their relationships, but not giving too much away, and then launching and then having that part of the mystery itself. So every book is written intentionally so that it can be an entry into the series and the world of Three Pines.

This one, you're right, I mean, perhaps slightly more than others... There are some others that make natural entry points as well. And this is one perhaps because there's quite a bit of backstory and origin story of how Armand came to be in... not in the Sûreté but in homicide, how we came to choose the homicide department, how he came to meet Beauvoir the first case that they did together. So there's a lot of that that a new reader will then be brought quickly up to speed.

ANNE: I won't give anything away for those who are diving in but I must say I did really enjoy being reminded of where those two started and where they started together in this new book.

LOUISE: That was fun to write, I have to say. [ANNE LAUGHS] You know, I didn't really know. In the previous books, I try not to be too specific because then I'm stuck with whatever it is I've thrown in on the spur of the moment in book seven and now I'm stuck with the fact that Beauvoir is one of quintuplets or something. So, I try not to be.

But I have said in the past that Beauvoir was stuck in some remote Sûreté outpost, that he was in the basement and that Gamache happened to run into him when he was on a case. But I didn't know what the case was. I didn't know where the outpost was. I didn't know why Beauvoir was in the basement.

So this was interesting for me to then now be able to manufacture that entire story and then bring it forward into the present time.

ANNE: Now, you have chosen to write a long-running series, and I'm so glad you did. But I would love to hear about a challenge or a moment where you thought, "What have I gotten myself into?" Who signed up to do this kind of work? It is too hard sometimes.

LOUISE: You know what? It is. There's always a point when I'm writing a book, normally in the middle, and as you know, because you do a lot of these interviews, there's a phrase for it. It's called the muddle in the middle for many authors where you start off strong and then you get lost. [CHUCKLES]

ANNE: And sometimes the phrase is a little more coarse but yes. [LOUISE LAUGHS]

LOUISE: Right. At some point, when I'm writing a book, I think, "Why? Why? Why? This is the one that's going to fail. This is a piece of [inaudible 00:09:41]. I can't do it. I never could. I've tricked every... you know, all those... the voice in your head that actually sounds a lot like my mother. "Give it up. I'm not going to sign another contract. I'm just going to stumble to the end of this poor book and inflict it on the readers. And that's it."

And then at some stage, I come out of that and feel much better about it. But it's agony. It's not easy to write a book. And if it's not agony, then you know, good for you, God bless you as a writer. But it's agony for me because I try to delve into issues that aren't always easy.

[00:10:19]

ANNE: One of my favorite lines from fictioner Wallace Stegner, hard writing makes for easy reading. So thank you for doing the hard writing so that we can have the pleasure of inhaling a book in two and a half days.

LOUISE: Well, it's hard writing and hard to editing is what does it too is that, you know, I do five or six drafts of a book because the first draft is about an exploration and taking chances and just trying to see where this thread goes and that character goes. And it's a mess. It really is often smelly. And then I hone and winnow and clarify so that by the end of the fifth or sixth draft it is easy reading.

ANNE: We appreciate that. We spoke of the challenges of the long-running series but for the reader, there is such joy to coming back to a familiar world that we can just sink into and feel right at home. What are some of the joys, from your perspective as the writer, of writing this series that's continued for so long?

LOUISE: It is certainly familiarity. I don't have to write. I guess my needs are very simple. I live in a little village, you know, where we exchanged potatoes practically as currencies. I don't have to. I'm not doing this for money or recognition. I'm doing it because I love the characters. I love the stories. And I find comfort in it.

I've always wanted to write but the stories came to me after 911, which, you know, was shocking for the world. You know, could never be as shocking for me sitting in a village in Quebec as it was for you and for every American. But it was still shocking.

And one of the things that it brought home very clearly to the world is that no place is safe. And I think we all got scared. I felt the need for a safe place. And I realized, of course, no place is safe. You can never guarantee physical safety. But what you can guarantee is emotional safety. And you do that by belonging to a community, by not being alone.

And if we learned anything in the pandemic, it was the power of community, of belonging, of friendships, of connection. That's what the books are about. As much as they are about the crime, they are about not being alone, about finding that quiet place in the bright sunshine no matter where you live.

And that's what Three Pines offers the readers and I think why it's found a readership internationally because we're all [inaudible 00:12:39] at our core. We all yearn for the same thing. We all want to belong to a tribe. We all want to have a community that will look after us when bad things happen.

But it also became very nurturing for me in my life when some bad things happened. Being able to open up the laptop and immerse myself in Three Pines to write scenes in the bistro in front of the fireplace, where they're enjoying Cafe Au Lait and a croissant or a Scotch at the end of the day and bantering or arguing and... It is comforting to write about the smells of the woods smoke and the feel of a snowflake landing on your cheek.

I think it saved my sanity at times and still does. I find immense comfort and joy in writing about Three Pines, about the characters, and being in their company and being in the company of Gamache who is immensely decent. And that is a good thing to be around too.

ANNE: I've heard you say that it feels like the people who come to the books are meant to come to the books. Would you tell me more about that?

LOUISE: It's a funny sense that I have. I described Three Pines as a place not on any map that's only ever found by people who are lost. And I get emails from all sorts of people who are reading the books. The vast majority of them talk about having found comfort in the books.

Some of them are ill and they retreat into the books so that there is this respite from what they're facing. But people who have lost a good friend, who have become widowed, who are facing hardships, and they share that with me. And it's meaningful. And it has… we have formed a community.

But I also get them emails from people who are extremely angry. "Why do you do this? Why do you have gay characters? You don't know it's a sin against God. And you know, how could you have this? And how could you do that? You know, you made a mistake on page 216. How dare you?"

And I think that you have not actually found Three Pines. You know, you're reading the wrong book. I think people who really connect at a profound level to the village and what the village is about are the ones who are meant to, who need the village, who need to find these books as I need to write them. So wonderful relationship I have with the readers. I'm deeply, deeply grateful to them that we form a whole. I think reading is at least as creative as writing.

[00:15:06]

ANNE: I'm imagining your audience of readers being those who want to snag a table at the bistro and settle in on a cozy evening.

LOUISE: Yes, and who share the values. And this isn't... I'm not proselytizing, I'm not trying to. I'm just talking about what I happen to believe in. There's a line from W. B. Yeats, in that he writes mad Ireland hurt him into poetry. [LOUISE LAUGHS] That is such a great line. It gives you, in whatever, how many words, like seven words or something, everything you need to know about Ireland, about poetry, and about Yeats, and about myself. You know, I had to be hurt into writing these books.

So I have no desire to drag someone into my philosophy of life but I do have a need and a desire to reflect it in what I write. And then people are welcome to get on the train or not, but the train is leaving the station.

ANNE: Louise, you were just quoting Auden's elegy to Yates. And something that so many readers love about your books is the way Gamache is always pulling out a poem at the perfect time or citing something that happened hundreds of years ago. I'd love to hear about your background that informs the way you write that character and his love of literature.

LOUISE: I learned my love of poetry from my grandfather. I was very close with him. Lovely man. And we would go walking... and I always felt different and I felt quite alone. And I'm never made to feel like that. I just always did feel like I was on an island looking at the mainland. And my grandfather was one of the few people on Earth who could sort of reach across to the island.

And we would go for walks and so when I was seven or eight, he would take my hand it would walk through gardens and parks and he would recite poetry. Not so that I could... He didn't want me to memorize it. There was no obligation on my part. He would just stroll and he would recite poetry.

And it would be obviously the poetry of his generation, which was Wordsworth and Kipling. But I learned that there is nothing strange about poetry. It is part of a normal conversation. And so then I took it on myself to explore poetry from A. A. Milne and Winnie-the-Pooh to E. E. Cummings and Auden and Yates. And I throw it into the books as well.

Obviously, Gamache is partly a reflection of who I am. The key of course, as you know Anne, is not to make it obnoxious. [BOTH LAUGHS]

ANNE: That is the key.

LOUISE: And in fact, I have Beauvoir who is a bit of a heathen. You know, and proudly so. He has no problem. He is who he is. But he's like, "Oh, my God, Armand, not more poetry." And Armand, you know, has enough of his sense of humor that he almost threatens to recite The Wreck of the Hesperus, which was this epic poem that goes on forever. So it becomes a running joke between the two of them. But I'm off lines as I do great comfort in poetry.

Now, I'm a bit of an autodidact. I was never good at school. Were you? Anne, were you good in school?

ANNE: Yes, I was good at school. That doesn't make me smart. But like good at the tests and the grades and turning your work in on time, yes.

LOUISE: Lucky you.

ANNE: What does it matter in the long run? It really does not. This is what I'm telling my children all the time.

LOUISE: Good for you. Because it doesn't matter. But when you're in school, and you're getting straight C's and you're being sort of treated like, you know, the sloped kid, it matters. And it has a knock-on effect through life. But I love to learn, I love to read and I love history, poetry and literature.

And I have come to learn exactly what you've said: that the marks I got in school are not reflective of me or anyone for that matter. So yeah, I love to just toss in lines of beautiful poetry, just couplets here and there.

[00:18:55]

ANNE: You already mentioned how in Three Pines, this idyllic city where everyone is safe, except there is a murder every other year. And you've talked about that in interviews, which is fun to listen to. So readers could have a blast checking out your catalog online. But you said that the murder is an excuse to explore various aspects of human nature. It's something that the book hangs around but isn't necessarily what the book is about.

And we asked our What should I Read Next? patrons, and I have to say the word patron rings differently when I know Beauvoir is always calling Gamache patroon, but we asked our patrons what they would like to know from you. And a common question was, how do you decide on which like topic or theme can forgiveness, conviction, betrayal that you want to explore in each book? Do you decide in advance or...? I'll leave it to you. How does that unfold in every novel?

LOUISE: It comes in different ways. Sometimes the title comes first, which is odd for the next book, which I won't talk much about because who knows what's actually going to happen. But the title came first. And then with the title it will inform the major theme of the book.

But sometimes again, it's poetry. For this particular book, it came from T. S. Eliot and his... The Christmas Oratorio. The line is "There's always another story, there's more than meets the eye." And so the theme became blind spots, that's for curiosities, and what happens in our blind spots.

And we all have them. We all have things that we think we're seeing clearly and in fact we're not, we're seeing them through the prism of our own experiences. Beauvoir has already warned Gamache in the past that terrible things can come out of his blind spots. And in this case, not only are terrible things lurking there, but Armand is swallowed up in his blind spot. So that's how that came about.

Authors will talk about writing being very isolating. And I understand that because you can't have a bunch of people yakking at you, you can't be at a cocktail party and writing your book. Most people and myself included, I need to be alone and quiet in my home. I write at the kitchen table.

So in that sense, it's isolating. But the fact is I've never been more plugged in to humankind and the world around me than when I am certainly planning a book because I need inspiration from outside. It's the turn of phrase. It's the accent I pick up, it's a song lyric, it's a conversation I have with a friend, with a painting that I read about in one of the UK papers. I didn't know. When I picked up the paper, I wasn't looking for it, it was just there. And it was one of those aha moments of, you know what? That's what I need. That's the pivot point. So they comes from all sorts of different ways, different places. But you have to be open, open to the universe and inspiration.

ANNE: You spoke about your new one, A World of Curiosities, and the T. S. Eliot poem, and the blind spots, and that Three Pines is a quiet place in the bright sunshine. But the subject matter and this new one is rough. How do you take care of yourself while diving into that dark material?

LOUISE: It helps a lot that I am in charge. So I have a sense of control over what the characters are going to be doing. And I think what's really scary for people in real life is the sense that anything bad can happen, and that we have no control whereas I actually do in this book.

I'm not writing about... and I think the readers understand this, and I think appreciate it as much as I do—I don't want to write about torture. I've never described the torture. I'm so taken with Hitchcock and the fact that he approached his films knowing that... this is a quote, probably not a direct quote, but that the closed door is so much more terrifying than the open door.

What I do is I can just... I hint at what might have happened. I don't have to describe it. I trust the reader's imagination to fill in the blanks. And that is so much more terrifying because then they own that image. I'm not giving it to them. Reading is creative if you trust your readers.

So in that sense, I'm not as terrified by what's happening as perhaps the readers might be. But I do want to assure people who are reading that with A World of Curiosities while... I mean, most of the books now are certainly psychological thrillers. I'm not going to describe torture. I might suggest that it has happened, but you're not going to get the blow-by-blows.

But what I do to relax is I love music, I go for walks. I love massages. If I could live on the massage table I would. Michael used to call me a horizontalist because I would spend most of my day trying to get into a bathtub or [LAUGHING] bubble bath or onto a massage table or onto his sofa or bed.

ANNE: That is a great word.

LOUISE: The horizontalist.

[00:23:54]

ANNE: Yes, I mean, just for you. We receive lots of questions from our listeners about how you approach plotting, not just the individual books, but also the arcs that occur across multiple books. Is there some serious whiteboard action happening in your house? Is it all in your head? How do you navigate managing both at the same time?

LOUISE: I don't have an overarching plan for the characters. This is something I struggle with, I get it right sometimes and sometimes I don't get it so right and then I struggle even more is having enough of a plan for a book going forward that I know what to do, where it's going so I don't get immersed in a muddle in the middle and have no sense of where the road is anymore.

But not having planned it's so minutely that there is no room for inspiration for all the grace notes. You know, that for me is trying to find that middle ground of knowing where the characters are going but not so tightly that if something surprising doesn't come up. I can't follow that as well.

I have sort of broad strokes. Again, I don't want to spoil anything for people who haven't read, you know, the entire series, but there is a lot of character development, and some of it has surprised me. And I find that wonderful because isn't life a big surprise? I mean, most of the things that have happened in my life have been unexpected.

ANNE: It's lovely to hear that you leave room for the grace notes. Something that readers love about the series is that you dependably put out a book a year, which is such a treat and something to look forward to and also sounds absolutely daunting. Would you tell us a little bit about deciding on and then maintaining what is really a brisk pace of writing?

LOUISE: Well, I have no life and I have no friends. [ANNE LAUGHS] I have a massage table and a bottle of gummy bears. I love writing and I love these characters. I do take some time. But the fact is I don't think a day has gone by in 20 years when I haven't thought about the characters and the books and what's happening next and where it should go or just sort of wondering, "What about this?" or "What about that?"

Sometimes I don't have to. I just do it because I enjoy their company. On the practical sense as I'm finishing one book—because they are so layered I actually think of it as one very long book at this point with 18 chapters because there's so much overlap—I need there to be echoes that move forward through the books that there is a history that these characters have that goes back to Still Life in some cases.

So when I'm finishing one book, I'm already planning the next book because they're kind of knitted together. So that's really how I do it. But then I take time off. When I finished a book and sent it in, which is terrifying, sent it into the editor, I'll often take a few weeks away when sit.

It normally happens sometime around March, April. Trying to find someplace warm and sit in the sunshine and noodle around. You know, it's like the first day of school, a fresh notebook and a fresh pencil and an eraser [CHUCKLING] and start making notes.

ANNE: Are you particular about your notebooks?

LOUISE: Yes. Oh my god. Oh. And the notebooks that I use, for a while there they ran out. How do you run out? What? How?

ANNE: Oh.

LOUISE: It was like a disaster. Then I found them again. Now I've bought like 100 of them. [BOTH LAUGHS]

[00:27:30]

ANNE: Now that you have a stash built up, can you say what it is that you love? Or is that a trade secret?

LOUISE: Yeah. No, I've got it. We've got the next one in front of me. This one is a Ryman. It's an A5 project book. The reason I like it is that it's not big, it's about four inches by six inches. But what is really helpful for me is that it is divided. There are very clear dividers with tabs that I can write on.

So once says "quotes," one is characters, one is plot, one is thoughts. So I have different sections that are very delineated.

ANNE: Process is important, Louise.

LOUISE: You know what else is important, too, is not having chaos, at least for me. I need, you know, a certain amount of order, not to the point of being obsessive about it, but a certain amount of order. Because if I can't find things and I'm stumbling along, it just adds stress and time to something that is already stressful.

ANNE: You painted the picture of you being in a warm place with your Ryman A5 notebook sketching out the new book. Something that I've loved about reading your series is that those new books that came out in August for so many years became a part of my rhythms as a reader.

My family would go to the beach every August, so I knew I could take the new Louise Penny novel with me. Now you've made the switch from August to November. And I'm curious to hear what that's been like for your reader, if you've heard, but especially for you as an author.

LOUISE: The readers have been wonderful. I expected a little bit of blowback or pushback but I think everybody understood. In fact, I wasn't going to put out a book this year because I put out two books last year: the State of Terror with Hillary Clinton and The Madness of Crowds. That took the stuffing out of me. And I thought, "I have to put my feet up. I have to catch my breath. I have to reconnect with family and friends. I just want to sit in a chaise lounge in my garden and just stare. [BOTH LAUGHS]

ANNE: Horizontal.

LOUISE: Exactly. Yeah, and stare straight ahead. But then the ideas came. And I thought, "You know, I just... maybe I'll just bring out the [inaudible 00:29:35] a little bit." And then my publisher was wonderful because I'd already said to them, "You're not going to get a book in 2022." And they said, "That's fine. That's fine." Then I said, "Well, I am writing." And they said, "That's great." And then I said, "You might get one this year." And they said, "Now you're confusing us. [BOTH LAUGHS] Just tell us yes or no. We don't care. We have to know. We have to. Tell us. As you've probably heard, there's all the supply chain issue. And trying to get paper and trying to get time on printers and then trying to get-

ANNE: Speaking of not having chaos, yes.

LOUISE: But they've never said to me in the past, "You got to tell us." They've just said, "You know, deliver whenever," and trusted me to deliver but this time they said, "Yeah, just because we have to order paper, we have to reserve time on the printer."

ANNE: I really enjoyed reading the Gamache at the beach, because that is, you know, the kind of reading you do when you just want a treat. And also your new book coming out November 29th. Here where I am in this hemisphere it's cold, it's moody, the skies are getting gray, it seems like a perfect time to pick up a mystery you've been looking forward to. November feels like it could be tailor-made for Three Pines. [LOUISE LAUGHS]

LOUISE: Yeah. Well, as you know, I mean, certainly in Quebec, and I think I say this in the book that November is nobody's favorite month. [ANNE LAUGHS] Dreary and cold and gray, and you know worse is coming. Part of the book is set actually in November as it turns out.

ANNE: We're glad we get to read a new book Beginning today. So thank you for that. Now, Louise, something that I think is such a compliment to your series is that readers make it part of their lives. They have friends over for licorice pipes that they have to order on the internet because they can't just walk into the bistro and get them and scotch. And they traveled to Quebec and they want to see all the sights and everything else in the setting where these novels are set. They bake things in the book.

And on that note, I would love to hear more about Dorie Greenspan's Gamache-inspired lemon meringue cookies. Sometimes these listener gatherings happen in homes, but sometimes you get to read about the love of Three Pines, and the New York Times, which is a lot of fun. And also pointed me towards symbolism and your novels that I had not even noticed, which was so much fun for me as a nerdy reader.

[00:31:43]

LOUISE: Yeah, the cookies, again, were unexpected. I hadn't planned to... Not the cookie but the pies. And Dori has become a personal friend. She was lovely to create these Gamache-inspired lemon meringue cookies.

But the pies, I think they showed up in the second book when Gamache is describing having been to a remote fishing village and meeting these fishermen or seeing this fisherman across the restaurant in the scope of shabby shanty town.

This was an exceptional experience. I mean, it's hard to describe without making it sound silly but a message from a higher power. The ongoing theme was that this person, this fisherman who wrote something on the wall that helped Armand was eating lemon meringue pie. Every time Armand sort of comes across the sense of the extraordinary, there is the scent of lemon meringue or there is the hint of the crust of a lemon meringue pie.

So that's become symbolic of the fact that there is, again, to use something that becomes a leap motif in the current book, the Curiosities is there's always another story. There's more than meets the eye. There's more than... it's not just the lemon meringue pie. There's something else there.

ANNE: I love that. Now, I have to ask you a question that made our team laugh when we got it from one of our patrons. Have you ever had a fan tell you that they are fearful they may be a Ruth? [LOUISE LAUGHS]

LOUISE: No. [ANNE LAUGHS] I've had a lot of fans telling me they are proud to be Ruth, that they aspire to be.

ANNE: Oh, I love that.

LOUISE: Ruth has sort of become a bit of a hero to many people for speaking her mind. Now, having said that, she is terrifying. I mean, I'm not- [ANNE LAUGHS]

ANNE: But we love her for it.

LOUISE: Yeah, exactly. But the thing is Ruth doesn't really grasp is that there is a difference between truth and opinion. And so she's more than happy to spout an opinion, one that probably most of the villagers and most readers share, but doesn't necessarily need to be said out loud. But she's become like the Greek chorus in the village.

ANNE: Please tell me Ruth is a joy to write because I'm not sure I could take it if she's not.

[00:34:03]

LOUISE: Oh, yeah. No, no, she is. But she's also challenged because you don't want her to become just a caricature. And that's why I also made her a poet because we all have a saving grace. You know, she's drunk and she saw it, and then she'll say whatever she says.

But she also has immense insight into herself and into human nature so that she can write these luminous poems that become some of Gamache's favorites. So she is. She's very fun to write. And she has to be layered and nuanced.

I don't think she could ever anchor a book because I think. She's better when she's sort of inserted here and there. But she's also a complex character and we get to know more and more of her. I love writing the scenes in particular with... sometimes some scenes with her and Armand in the little church of Three Pines, a little chapel. And they're sitting quietly and just talking. Those are some of my favorite scenes.

ANNE: I'm picturing her sitting on a bench with Beauvoir right now. Oh, which makes me think we are all about to get a Three Pines visual that... I mean, Louise, the internet went wild when the Three Pines trailer was released last month. And I like so many cannot wait to watch the series. Could you tell us a little bit about it? Like how it came to be, and maybe how you've... I'm thinking of Gamache... how you feel about the show.

LOUISE: There had been an earlier made-for-TV movie that I had agreed to many, many years ago, and they made Still Life. And that was not a happy experience. So I thought, "I'm not going to do this again." And I didn't. I turned down every offer.

And then finally, the people who made The Crown, Left Bank, here in the UK approached me. And we went out for lunch with Andy Harries, who runs Left Bank, talked about it and why he wanted to make it and what he saw what I saw.

We went out for lunches and discussed this for two years, until my agent said something really interesting, because I was going back and forth thinking, "There's a lot that can go wrong. It's just such a big risk. And I love these books, and I love these characters, and do I want to do it?" And I think I was just driving her insane, for God's sake, you know, fish or cut bait, just do something.

And finally, she said something that really made sense to me. She said, "Do it or not. You know, whatever. Make up your mind." But think about this: that if you're ever going to agree to have your books turned into a TV series, you will never find a better production company than Left Bank."

You know, that sent me back on my heels. And I sat with that for a while I thought, "She's right. She's right. If I'm going to do it, if I'm going to take the leap off the cliff, it will be for Left Bank." And so I've finally agreed. And what a process!

And I know you've spoken to other authors about this. Sometimes authors come in different forms, of course. Some want to be very involved and some don't want to be involved at all. But I feel such ownership of these characters and the stories and the story development in Three Pines itself, which is a character and Quebec, which is a character. And I owe them so much. They've given me—without being too precious—a life that I never thought I would ever have. So I owe them protection.

And there were times in this process where I felt I was really losing that battle and losing them to someone else's necessity and agenda. There were times I was in meetings with them and we were all in tears. I didn't think it was possible for TV people to burst into tears. I don't think I was being that mean, but we were all in tears because they cared, they cared.

They really felt they were doing the right thing and I felt I was doing the right thing and pushing back. But it was painful. And I don't like confrontation. And there were times I thought, "I'm just going to pack up and go and watch reruns of friends on television and eat chocolates and give up." But I couldn't do that. So it was a struggle. But things began to turn around and I began to exhale—you can't have everything. And I think overall, it's something I'm proud of.

[00:38:16]

ANNE: And now it comes out in a number of days. Have you seen the first episode?

LOUISE: I've seen all eight, yeah.

ANNE: And?

LOUISE: Well, yeah, no, I liked them. I think, you know, some are stronger than others. Some of their decisions are not ones I would make. I think if I'm disappointed in anything, and I've made this clear to readers and to Left Bank early on and continually so, the village of Three Pines is not as fully realized as I would like. They've made it for dramatic purposes, not the sanctuary that I've made it. The villagers aren't fully realized. But to be fair, they've made the choice to make it more of the crime stories but there are other elements.

And it took a while in the stories, the books, to evolve the characters and the place. And it does evolve and it does grow. And I think if there's a second season and we all hope that there will be, Three Pines, will move back much more toward my vision of it. And we've talked about that. So it is a process. And we're all learning. We're all learning. I've learned a lot. I've made a lot of mistakes. I've admitted to them that I was wrong in a number of cases. No more tears. [LAUGHS]

ANNE: I'm glad to hear it.

LOUISE: Yeah, I'm very excited. I'm nervous of course about how it will be received but I love as many people as possible to watch it and let me know.

ANNE: Well, I'm looking forward to doing exactly that. Today on the release of book 18, a of curiosity as so many readers are just exhilarated to be returning to Three Pines, and so many are entering the world for the first time. What words would you send those readers with as they enter into this world?

LOUISE: Ha, that's interesting question. You know, open-mindedness and tolerance and comfort and to give it time. These books aren't, you know, the Jack Reacher books. These are quieter builds. These are more about the marrow than about the blood.

In the books, there's an artist, Clara and Armand talks about allowing the art to come to him. So often you feel it. You can't really explain what it is you're seeing but you feel the painting. She's painting emotions.

And I would suggest the same thing about the books. The books are meant to be read first through the heart and then into the head. Both have to be engaged, but I would definitely encourage people to read it with your heart first.

ANNE: First through the heart and then into the head. How beautifully put! Thank you. Thank you for that benediction as readers go back into the route of Three Pines. And we're just wishing all the best for you, the book, and the adaptation that's coming out in just a few days.

[00:41:03]

LOUISE: Well, I so enjoyed this. And thank you, Anne. I'm so excited to have Curiosities out into the world. And thank you, for your readers too, for being so supportive. It means the world to me.

ANNE: Well, we are celebrating with you. Thank you so much for making the time. It was a pleasure talking books with you today.

LOUISE: Thanks, Anne.

[CHEERFUL OUTRO MUSIC]

ANNE: Hey readers, I hope you enjoyed today's conversation. If you are a Louise Penny fan, we are so glad you're here. This episode is just the tip of the iceberg. We have a whole bunch of episodes that we think you will love. If you're looking for Penny-inspired reading recommendations, you might particularly enjoy listening to the episodes where a guest picks one of her books as a favorite or I recommend it as an extra read.

Episodes like 323 called Series to cure your Louise Penny hangover and Episode 217, making up for lost time in your reading life. We've compiled those episodes featuring Louise's books, as well as a link to that lemon meringue cookie recipe at whatshouldireadnextpodcast.com/357.

With more than 350 episodes of our podcast, we've got a deep backlist bookish conversations for you to explore. But to make sure you never miss a future episode and to learn more about what we do here, at What Should I Read Next?, sign up for our free weekly newsletter. You can do that at whatshouldireadnextpodcast.com/newsletter.

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Follow along in Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Overcast, wherever you get your podcasts. Tune in next week for more book talk and a literary matchmaking session with a reader who loves seasonally inspired reading and needs help identifying hope winter reading vibe.

Thanks to the people who make this show happen! What Should I Read Next? is produced by Brenna Frederick, with production assistance by Holly Wielkoszewski, and sound design by Kellen Pechacek.

Readers, that's it for this episode. Thanks so much for listening.

And as Rainer Maria Rilke said, "Ah, how good it is to be among people who are reading." Happy reading, everyone!